Making a decision based on data....

[Bob_about]

So, I think I`d like to cycle to work – I`m reasonably fit (can run 10k comfortably in under an hour) and reasonably happy being out in all weathers (I also whitewater kayak all through the winter!)

But, the office is 20 miles away, and the routes which avoid main roads and dual carriageways include some fairly long steep hills.

I have tried the route on my current old heavy steel mountain bike – it took over 1 ½ hours, the hills slowed me to a snails pace, and the round trip left me quite tired (poor old me!). I have therefore concluded that I don’t think it’s a viable proposition on a daily basis on my current bike, so need to buy something else.

An e-bike seems an attractive proposition to help power me uphill and offer that bit of assistance at the end of a long day. My desk based research leads me to think I could be quite happy on a Wisper 905 se City S – it has the looks, features and range I`d be looking for.

Added to that I`d be looking at Ortleib panniers, a decent helmet, good dayglow waterproof jacket, dayglow jersey, waterproof trousers, gloves, insurance and possibly additional lights, mirrors and some things I don’t even realise exist right now – I would not be surprised if the total cost for this little change in lifestyle came out at over £2000 – but then again I`d be saving around £150 per month by not using the car if I cycled every day, so the payback period would be less than 18 months.

So here is the dilemma ….

Spending £2000 is a significant chunk of money, but fine if I do indeed cycle every day and save the car costs.
I have never ridden a battery assisted bike and appreciate I need a test ride.
I also appreciate that a test ride at a suppliers is no more likely to give me a real feel for what cycling to and from work on an e-bike will be like than paddling a new whitewater kayak on a lake will give me an understanding of how that kayak will perform on a steep creek.

So how do I make a decision without real data on what the daily commute would be like, other than how hard it is on a conventional bike?

Ideally I`d want to loan an e-bike with similar characteristics for a couple of days trial to and from work to gain the experience before committing the money.

Is there any way this is possible?
Is it, for example possible to hire such a bike, and then deduct the hire charges from the purchase price should I then commit to buy?

Anyone with advice on how they made their decisions to commit?

Cheers

Bob_about

 

[Bigbee]

Where abouts are you Bob?

 

[Bob_about]

Warwickshire - few miles South of Stratford Upon Avon
Commute is CV37 8// to CV32 5// postcode areas

 

[Mussels]

I had the same problem last year and I found my local dealer would hire me a 905 sport for 30 quid, I was able to ride the route from work to home and back again. The route I started with was just over 20 miles and the Wisper made the trip a joy, I was happy and placed the order. The total cost was a bit of a shock as I spent a few hundred more than the cost of the bike, also regular maintenance is required.
My only complaint now is that the top speed seems capped at 20mph, I can go faster on a normal bike even though I can't maintain the average speed on a normal bike. I have a lot of stopping and starting as I ride into the City of London but I manage a 15mph average on a good day and 13mph on a bad one.
I tried a few types of panniers and found roll tops (like the Ortleibs) were the best by far.

 

[Tiberius]

Bob,

My guess is that the hills are the important bit. You sound like you would be pedalling fast enough on the flat anyway, so checking out how the bike behaves on the hills is the important bit. Or rather, how the bike/human hybrid behaves.

It would be worth talking to On-Bike. They really do promote the idea of "try before you buy" and I know they have at least one good hill near one of their shops.

Nick

 

[priscilla]

Ideally I`d want to loan an e-bike with similar characteristics for a couple of days trial to and from work to gain the experience before committing the money.

Is there any way this is possible?
Is it, for example possible to hire such a bike, and then deduct the hire charges from the purchase price should I then commit to buy?

Anyone with advice on how they made their decisions to commit?

I think it depends on your local dealer. I'm in the Edinburgh area and was given a free trial of a Wisper for 4 days to test it out. I didn't even need to collect it - the dealer dropped it off at my home. He said that he didn't like to sell bikes that didn't suit a customer's specific route/area so he preferred to give a longer trial period.

I'm sure this is an effective technique - 4 days was plenty to get me hooked! My lovely new Wisper will be under the christmas tree (assuming Santa makes it through the snow!)

priscilla

 

[Bob_about]

Thanks for the reply - I`d certainly be happy to pay £30 hire charge to trial a bike on my planned route.

You mention regular maintenance, which I kinda had in the back of my mind as well. Basing it on a 200 mile weekly average which sounds similar to what you have been doing, how much maintenance are we talking about?

My assumption had been to allow for a couple of sets of tyres, brake blocks and then just cleaning and lube - is there anything else I would need to be costing in on a regular basis?

Cheers

Bob_about

I had the same problem last year and I found my local dealer would hire me a 905 sport for 30 quid, I was able to ride the route from work to home and back again. The route I started with was just over 20 miles and the Wisper made the trip a joy, I was happy and placed the order. The total cost was a bit of a shock as I spent a few hundred more than the cost of the bike, also regular maintenance is required.
My only complaint now is that the top speed seems capped at 20mph, I can go faster on a normal bike even though I can't maintain the average speed on a normal bike. I have a lot of stopping and starting as I ride into the City of London but I manage a 15mph average on a good day and 13mph on a bad one.
I tried a few types of panniers and found roll tops (like the Ortleibs) were the best by far.

 

[Bob_about]

Thanks for the reply

I agree the hills are important for the powered test, but I`m also interested in trying the bike out with the weight I`d be carrying, and pedalling it without assistance on the flat & downhill sections.

My assumption is that a newer alloy bike with better tyres etc, even with a battery and motor, would be easier to ride than my current steel monster.

My imagined ideal would be to leave the electrics turned off for the easier stretches which would enable me to run faster than 15mph, but use the power to seriously increase the uphill average (which goes down to about 3mph at the moment!)

I suspect however, that if I get on well with such a bike I`ll soon get to enjoy the assistance!

All the best

Bob_about

Bob,

My guess is that the hills are the important bit. You sound like you would be pedalling fast enough on the flat anyway, so checking out how the bike behaves on the hills is the important bit. Or rather, how the bike/human hybrid behaves.

It would be worth talking to On-Bike. They really do promote the idea of "try before you buy" and I know they have at least one good hill near one of their shops.

Nick

 

[Andy Grayland]

Hi Bob

You are not far from our Kidderminster shop. We have a large range of bikes on demo including Wispers, Emotion(Panasonic based) and Ezee bikes. We are happy for people to come and give the various systems a good try out.
We have lots of hills around us including a 1 in 6 under a mile away (Conal it's a shame we did not point you towards the hills when you came, as the hills are just off the industrial estate).
We also lend people an old bike for a couple of days if they wish to try a particular route.

If you need to do 40 miles on a single charge you need to be very careful which bike you choose. Please do not believe the distances manufacturers quote for their bikes, as in my experience they are sometimes VERY VERY optimistic.

Andy

Thanks for the reply

I agree the hills are important for the powered test, but I`m also interested in trying the bike out with the weight I`d be carrying, and pedalling it without assistance on the flat & downhill sections.

My assumption is that a newer alloy bike with better tyres etc, even with a battery and motor, would be easier to ride than my current steel monster.

My imagined ideal would be to leave the electrics turned off for the easier stretches which would enable me to run faster than 15mph, but use the power to seriously increase the uphill average (which goes down to about 3mph at the moment!)

I suspect however, that if I get on well with such a bike I`ll soon get to enjoy the assistance!

All the best

Bob_about

 

[Mussels]

You mention regular maintenance, which I kinda had in the back of my mind as well. Basing it on a 200 mile weekly average which sounds similar to what you have been doing, how much maintenance are we talking about?

My assumption had been to allow for a couple of sets of tyres, brake blocks and then just cleaning and lube - is there anything else I would need to be costing in on a regular basis?

Balls, I just lost a long reply.
In short regular maintenance is:
Tyres - 2 sets a year, summer and winter.
Chain, freewheel and chainring, one set a year if you rotate chains.
BB bearings - 3 sets a year but the sealed BB of the new bikes should require much less maitenance.
Brake pads.
The first time you do a job it will take a long time but it gets much easier with practice, the electrics do tend to complicate things a bit even if you aren't working on them.
Irregular maintenance - I've had several problems with broken wheels, broken frame, dodgy brakes etc. This has led to a few weeks of train fares that I hadn't budgeted for but now I think everything I had trouble with has been redesigned and the new product is much better.
I'm going to test a 906 Alpino in the new year as I think it will be a better bike for the journey.

I agree the hills are important for the powered test, but I`m also interested in trying the bike out with the weight I`d be carrying, and pedalling it without assistance on the flat & downhill sections.

My assumption is that a newer alloy bike with better tyres etc, even with a battery and motor, would be easier to ride than my current steel monster.

My imagined ideal would be to leave the electrics turned off for the easier stretches which would enable me to run faster than 15mph, but use the power to seriously increase the uphill average (which goes down to about 3mph at the moment!)

I suspect however, that if I get on well with such a bike I`ll soon get to enjoy the assistance!

All the best

Bob_about

My steel bike is OK and easier to ride than the 905 without power, it's faster as well although the average times are much quicker on the Wisper. I also manage to ride every day of the week in all weathers and normal cyclists are usually amazed at what I do, the assistance makes a bigger difference than it would seem at first.
I insisted on testing the proper route first and I'm glad I did, I don't think you'll turn the electrics off unless the battery goes flat as it just stops providing power if you pedal faster than the motor limit.

 

[Bob_about]

Thanks again for the comprehensive reply - dont you just hate it when a lot of text dissappears.

Ref the regular maintenance I am wondering if it may be possible to get this quoted for and provided by the shop I purchase from to start with - possibly the idea of dropping by every three months to start with (lazy I know, but much above mending a puncture and the level of swearing as I loose nuts and washers, forget where I put the spanner down and then strip my knuckles could be better avoided if I cost servicing into my budget)

Ref the irregular servicing - broken wheels, frames and dodgy brakes are more alarming - not so much the costs as I assume they would be warranty items, but the inconveniene. My whole premise of being prepared to spend around £1500 on a bike is based on the idea that it would be up to doing 200 miles a week.

I have been thinking the 905 se City S 14 amp would be what I wanted - front suspension good for some of the route, but lock out in town; full mudguards and pannier rack; front disc brake, strong looking design and reported good range. What more would I be getting that I need from a 906?

Just wondering why you are thinking it would be better for the job?

Thanks again

Bob_about

Balls, I just lost a long reply.
In short regular maintenance is:
Tyres - 2 sets a year, summer and winter.
Chain, freewheel and chainring, one set a year if you rotate chains.
BB bearings - 3 sets a year but the sealed BB of the new bikes should require much less maitenance.
Brake pads.
The first time you do a job it will take a long time but it gets much easier with practice, the electrics do tend to complicate things a bit even if you aren't working on them.
Irregular maintenance - I've had several problems with broken wheels, broken frame, dodgy brakes etc. This has led to a few weeks of train fares that I hadn't budgeted for but now I think everything I had trouble with has been redesigned and the new product is much better.
I'm going to test a 906 Alpino in the new year as I think it will be a better bike for the journey.


My steel bike is OK and easier to ride than the 905 without power, it's faster as well although the average times are much quicker on the Wisper. I also manage to ride every day of the week in all weathers and normal cyclists are usually amazed at what I do, the assistance makes a bigger difference than it would seem at first.
I insisted on testing the proper route first and I'm glad I did, I don't think you'll turn the electrics off unless the battery goes flat as it just stops providing power if you pedal faster than the motor limit.

 

[eddieo]

Probably less maintenance with a 906xc tourer due to better equipment and the Alfina hub gear. remember to factor in the cost of replacement battery after 2 years or so with any e bike.

I am thinking of either the city S or the 906xc myself having just sold my 905se sport. I await some reviews/tests on 906 first. But will probably go for the city S, a decision purely based on cost. I use daily for exercise, and general transport. but not commuting. and have the wifes new 705SE as back up (I am using this in the meantime)

I would get over to Onbike and try a few but would think if in anyway fit and expect to ride without power at times ( not many e bikes are pleasant without power ) I would place an E Motion high on my list if I were you....

whatever you buy you are bound to enjoy it, as E biking is a liberating experience.

 

[Mussels]

Just wondering why you are thinking it would be better for the job?

I have started to find the 905 frame is a little on the small side and now I have tried a bike with 700c wheels I like them. The 906 Aplino has a bigger frame and bigger wheels.
The Aplino motor is in the front wheel and will even out the stress on the spokes, I think it was my pedaling coupled with the motor that over stressed the short spokes and caused breakages on the 905.
The Alpino motor may have less drag when I pedal faster than it's limit, I need to check this when they arrive.
The Alfine hub has a better gear range than the 905, not essential but I've been looking for a way to do this as the 905 will not take a front changer.
The Alfine hub is less vulnerable and will require less maintenance than the freewheel.
The Alpino has disc brakes front and rear, I much prefer these to V brakes.
If the 906 hadn't appeared I'd quite happily carry on with the 905, but it the 906 pretty much answers all the 'I'd like' messages I have mentioned to Wisper.

There are some downsides to the 906:
Price (I think it's more expensive).
Hub gears aren't as efficient as the freewheel.
Front motor adds weight to the front wheel, I think the 905 will feel better to ride.
Hub cost, it doesn't need as much work doing but will cost more to change when it does.

 

[john]

Bob_about,

A couple of thoughts.

You are probably going to be pedalling on the flat without/above assist, so you will want low drag from the motor. So perhaps a good free-wheeling motor would be an idea. The Bafang motors used by Wisper have a free-wheel and the free-wheel in the Tongxin, used in the Cytronix, is lower drag. Although I can't vouch for the the reliability of the latter.

Putting road tyres on your mountain bike might be worth trying first, as this will make the biggest difference if you have mountain tyres on in currently. After that, you could try to get into a more aerodyamic position.

John

 

[eddieo]

You out in it today Mussels?

the 906 xc tourer I was referring to is the TOTR carbon framed Alpino model (approx £2399 ) Mussels fancies the new 906 Alpino (approx £1799) with larger wheels and frame. It has the alfina hub but not carbon frame, air shocks etc.....Both have Dapush front hub motors & Alfina hub gears though

 

[Mussels]

You out in it today Mussels?

Oh yes and quite surprised I didn't come off on some of the sheets of ice I rode over, fortunately I didn't need to stop or turn on any of the larger ones.

 

[eddieo]

Oh yes and quite surprised I didn't come off on some of the sheets of ice I rode over, fortunately I didn't need to stop or turn on any of the larger ones.

"Iron man" competition next year?

I got hammered in a sleet/snow downpour yesterday riding back from Croydon, a miserable experience with a low battery

I am surprised you find the 905 a bit small. I am 5.10 same as you I think? my inside leg is only 29 inch. But I find the 905 a comfortable fit. this bigger wheeled/bigger framed non carbon Alpino will probably be heavier as well wouldn't you think?

 

[Straylight]

Mussels, so the Contis were ok then? I'm going for my first icy commute tomorrow

 

[fishingpaul]

So, I think I`d like to cycle to work – I`m reasonably fit (can run 10k comfortably in under an hour) and reasonably happy being out in all weathers (I also whitewater kayak all through the winter!)

But, the office is 20 miles away, and the routes which avoid main roads and dual carriageways include some fairly long steep hills.

I have tried the route on my current old heavy steel mountain bike – it took over 1 ½ hours, the hills slowed me to a snails pace, and the round trip left me quite tired (poor old me!). I have therefore concluded that I don’t think it’s a viable proposition on a daily basis on my current bike, so need to buy something else.

An e-bike seems an attractive proposition to help power me uphill and offer that bit of assistance at the end of a long day. My desk based research leads me to think I could be quite happy on a Wisper 905 se City S – it has the looks, features and range I`d be looking for.

Added to that I`d be looking at Ortleib panniers, a decent helmet, good dayglow waterproof jacket, dayglow jersey, waterproof trousers, gloves, insurance and possibly additional lights, mirrors and some things I don’t even realise exist right now – I would not be surprised if the total cost for this little change in lifestyle came out at over £2000 – but then again I`d be saving around £150 per month by not using the car if I cycled every day, so the payback period would be less than 18 months.

So here is the dilemma ….

Spending £2000 is a significant chunk of money, but fine if I do indeed cycle every day and save the car costs.
I have never ridden a battery assisted bike and appreciate I need a test ride.
I also appreciate that a test ride at a suppliers is no more likely to give me a real feel for what cycling to and from work on an e-bike will be like than paddling a new whitewater kayak on a lake will give me an understanding of how that kayak will perform on a steep creek.

So how do I make a decision without real data on what the daily commute would be like, other than how hard it is on a conventional bike?

Ideally I`d want to loan an e-bike with similar characteristics for a couple of days trial to and from work to gain the experience before committing the money.

Is there any way this is possible?
Is it, for example possible to hire such a bike, and then deduct the hire charges from the purchase price should I then commit to buy?

Anyone with advice on how they made their decisions to commit?

Cheers

Bob_about

Welcome bob,20 miles with a few long hills is a stretch even one way for most electric bikes,the wisper should do this ok at first but may need a charge at work as it ages,pedalling most electric bikes without assistance is a fair bit harder than riding a normal bike,the panasonic system powered bikes are generally rated as the best for riding without assistance,a kalkhoff or emotion may be worth looking at but may need charging at work, some of these are available in various frame sizes,if you are tall you may find a wisper frame a little small,also budget £400 to £500 for a new battery after about two years.

 

[Bob_about]

Thanks for all the replies - its always great when people are so happy to share their advice and experiences.

From this posting I have gathered:-

Some shops have been known to offer longer term demos and those who have tested a bike on their actual route recommend it - I think this would help me feel more confident making the commitment.

Riding them without assistance maybe harder than I am imagining, so I definitely want to try this out, the drag / resistance of the motor is something I should think about here.(although I do accept the reality that I will probably get used to keeping the assistance on and enjoy it)

The Wispers are not enormous - this is hopefully good for me being 5'4" tall!

There will be a number of costs I had not considered, including a new battery after a couple of years

40 miles on a single charge maybe pushing it - this is a reality check I guess so thanks for the advice - probably worth checking out how a sneaky charge in the office would be looked on by the boss!

So my plan is to pop along to a shop or two after Christmas and spend some time test riding and then making a cheeky request for a longer ride on my commute route! (I have tried to attach a profile of the route for anyone interested)

Thanks again for the advice received, this combined with a few weeks worth of reading through previous posts has been very educational - an excellent resource. Who knows, if/when I do make a commitment, spend the money and start cycling 40 miles a day I may even have some experiences worth sharing as I go along!

All the best & seasons greetings

Bob_about

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