My Torq Story

C

Cyclezee

Guest
I recently bought a slightly used Torq, only 2 weeks old and at a reasonable price.
There were a couple of faults when I bought it, a cracked throttle and about a pint of water inside the handlebar power meter. I fixed the throttle and ordered a new one from 50cycles for £20 just in case my repair fails. Then I dried out the meter and sealed the gaps around the cables where they enter the meter with silicone. About a week later the meter only shows red despite being fully charged, so I have to rely on the distance travelled to work out how much power is left in the battery. Have made several changes, like replacing the seat pillar with nice Kalloy suspension post, replaced the thumb gear shift with a Shimano Revoshift, carried out the Flecc mod to the throttle and fitted a nice soft pair of grips to the bars to help cushion the shocks.
I get about 16 to 18 bone shaking fast miles on a charge, this compares to 22 comfortable miles on my Lafree at a more sedate pace.
Don’t get me wrong, the Torq is well built and a real flyer, but some of the components e.g. throttle, power meter, light switch, seat pillar etc. are a bit cheap and nasty for a bike costing over £1000.
That’s my opinion, some may disagree?
If the Gazelle Easy Glider was as light as the Lafree, I would seriously consider getting one
 

ITSPETEINIT

Esteemed Pedelecer
Dec 11, 2006
492
0
Mere, Wilts
AND my Torq experience.

I had my Torq for about 12 months and it was 'charming' in some ways ( good size frame for a big rider, nice strong carrier).
In many ways it was CHEAP AND NASTY, more of a 'bread-board' model than a 'tried, tested and passed' production article.
The facilities for trying out are very limited and the encouraging advertising leaves a buyer wondering what can be wrong with such a bike with such glowing reports.
Did no one notice what Aldby found?
A very poor seat pin! It does not really fit the frame tube diameter, I replaced it with a Post Moderne Cushy SL from CTC shop at £22.50 (members price).
Brakes that shudder so badly they should never have left the prototype (or is the frame geometry all wrong just to get a shorter wheelbase?)
A gear change lever that digs into the right-hand forefinger (if the lever is moved it goes out of reach).
Front Forks that have such a hard ride that the left hand operating the throttle become painful if not relieved.
No provision for removing the front wheel easily (though all the eZee range is like that).
Tyres that were as puncture resistant as tissue paper.
That daft prop stand - if a tyre goes flat in the garage overnight (as in slow puncture on those tissue-paper tyres) the cycle falls over.
Mudguards that were a joke - either have none or proper ones!

But the biggest fault of all was the ABSENCE of Torque over a range of conditions. It falls away quite rapidly on real hills (6% and above); when weight is added (like 'grown-ups' of 80 kgs); when luggage is added on that marvellous carrier.
It was its poor performance on hills (what else are electric bikes for if not to provide real assistance on hills?) that finally convinced me to cut my losses.
The conceit of eZee to produce a bike that would just go illegally fast has really not met the criteria of a real electric bike. And all of this compounded by the continued publication of the absurd 2006 Presteigne Tour - no qualification pointing out that the results were influenced by the fact that the Torq used was a prototype without a restriction to the legal speed limit of 15.5 mph. It was not 'an electric bike just like anyone in the country could own' legally. A viewer has to work that out by a question and answer routine with the rider.

I changed the riders gearing on mine to allow more 'spinning' at slower road speeds 44 chain ring and a 32-12 cassette (same chain length). Lots of discussion on the Forum as to the feasibility of that.
NOW we have the Forza and the Forte (thank you for the feed-back Pete from eZee Cycles - where did I miss that?). Wider gear range/lower bottom gear; Suspension forks, Disc Brake, etc.
Us Torq guinea pigs did quite a good job by most accounts.
Than you for the 'Thanks' :rolleyes:

Peter
 

Tim

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 1, 2006
770
78
London
Sorry to hear all that, but I guess you can't please all the people all of the time, whatever the product! The Torq has been very well, often ecstatically, received by the overwhelming majority of owners. There have been and will be significant improvements to come, as with anything at the forefront. The unsolicited testimonials all over our website say something of its success. They certainly don't consider themselves guinea pigs!

Not sure what the problem is with the mudguards?! The earliest models in the first quarter of 2005 had the lightest possible for sporty performance. It is now very easy to remove the front wheel on all models since early 2006.

As for Torq range, it's bound to be less when derestricted. It beats the Lafree hands down for speed and range when restricted as delivered.
 
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flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
52,765
30,351
Poor quality components are commonplace on expensive e-bikes, among Oriental manufacturers only Giant different with some (but not all) better ancillaries on the Twist series.

The reason is quite simple, Giant are a highly experienced bicycle manufacturer, all the other Oriental companies aren't, and many if not most of their mistakes result from that, The whole emphasis of their design is on the electrical aspects and in many cases it's obvious they don't know what makes a good bike. They just bolt together the items perceived as most marketable and think that results in a satisfactory bicycle. Clearly it doesn't.

European bike companies often have a long and proud heritage or a need to match their local rivals and consequent better standards, hence the two Flyers, Gazelle, Sparta, Miele et al suffering very little with that problem. Sadly they are blighted by the severe restrictions of European law which leaves the door open for alternative products not so restricted, and while those alternative products sell well as a result, there's little market pressure for changes in component quality.

Also the comparisons are often unfair. It's very easy for a bicycle company producing a bike with the Panasonic motor/battery unit, all they need is a bike and add a switch, the Panasonic unit incorporating everything else for them. And they don't even get that right sometimes, the handlebar switch on the Giant Lafree series being cheap plastic, easily broken, and not waterproof.

By contrast, a fairly small Oriental producer has to source from standard available components things like the throttle, controller box, battery meter, pedelec components, switches, connectors etc., many not available in higher standards or suitable for exposed use in wet conditions since they are derived from other electronic sources. Tooling and production of tailor made items is impossible for small production quantities. In these terms, using the Panasonic unit in a pedelec is a cop out, avoiding all of those problems.

And for the customer, the choice is there, buy a fairly expensive European bike and have the restrictions, spend very much more on an unrestricted European bike like the Swizzbee, or spend a lot less on a similarly fast product like the Torq, but suffer some cheaper components in consequence. That £2500 Swizzbee isn't much of a climber either by all accounts.
.
 
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ITSPETEINIT

Esteemed Pedelecer
Dec 11, 2006
492
0
Mere, Wilts
torq experience

Sorry to hear all that, but I guess you can't please all the people all of the time, whatever the product! The Torq has been very well, often ecstatically, received by the overwhelming majority of owners.
Well you would say that wouldn't you
There have been and will be significant improvements to come, as with anything at the forefront. The unsolicited testimonials all over our website say something of its success. They certainly don't consider themselves guinea pigs!
Only the ones with the positive note - the negative ones may not have been published

Not sure what the problem is with the mudguards?! The earliest models in the first quarter of 2005 had the lightest possible for sporty performance.
The mudguards were those silly black ones about half the size of full mudguards and vibrated like hell.
It is now very easy to remove the front wheel on all models since early 2006.
You mean drop it down a couple of inches - it cannot be taken right out for, say, truing the wheel without a breaking the wiring to the motor and the insulation wrapping. (Bike supplied July 2006)_

As for Torq range, it's bound to be less when derestricted. It beats the Lafree hands down for speed and range when restricted as delivered.
Yes I found the range quite good - but the Lithium battery that it's supplied with (and that's over hyped) has its limitations and unreliability. After one year (less in another case) its range is down by 40% (from 28 miles to 20 miles) - see Flecc's posting on the Forum FAQ 08.25, 21/7/2007

But you did not acknowledge my other comments: Brake Judder, Seat Pin fit, Gear change lever, Tyres (better now), Prop stand.
Nor acknowledge the feedback through the Pedelec Forum suggesting some of the "significant improvements" from owners which have subsequently appeared on the Forte and Forza - which is what Guinea Pigs do.
Peter
PS I am still waiting for: 1 Blank Key (you've no doubt found a spare one amongst the others the new warehouse), A properly dated invoice and the Manual for a Sprint (I have two sprints and only one manual) - all the subject of correspondence some many weeks ago when you found yourself too busy to deal with the matter then.
I am also looking forward to the replies you will be posting to questions raised in the 50 Cycles clinic, concerning three interesting topics, many weeks ago.
Quote "If you have any questions about our company or products this is the place to do it" Unquote.
If you have any answers to the questions raised on your clinic that would be the place to post them.
Nice timing on the reply to Aldby - but 'if I'm the Pete referred to', I had my Torq only 12 months.
Peter
 
C

Cyclezee

Guest
Do I understand the response of Scott and Tim of 50cycles correctly? Are you offering me as the 2nd owner of this bike to correct any manufacturing or design faults at no cost if I bring my bike to you? Or do you just wish to examine my bike so that you can feed back to the manufacturer?
If it is the first option, I can bring it to you tomorrow.
John
 
C

Cyclezee

Guest
Peter, my fullsize mudguards also rattle like crazy if I lift my left hand from the bars?
Flecc, how much time, money and considerable skill have you spent on making your Torq into the bike it should be?
 

nigel

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 18, 2006
467
0
Nigel

I would agree with whats been said about poor quality components but my biggest gripe:confused: is with brake judder that should have been sorted out i feel that was very important however apart from that i am very pleased with the torq it always brings plenty of intrest from members of the public.
 

ITSPETEINIT

Esteemed Pedelecer
Dec 11, 2006
492
0
Mere, Wilts
Seat Post

I recently bought a slightly used Torq, only 2 weeks old and at a reasonable price.
There were a couple of faults when I bought it, a cracked throttle and about a pint of water inside the handlebar power meter. I fixed the throttle and ordered a new one from 50cycles for £20 just in case my repair fails. Then I dried out the meter and sealed the gaps around the cables where they enter the meter with silicone. About a week later the meter only shows red despite being fully charged, so I have to rely on the distance travelled to work out how much power is left in the battery. Have made several changes, like replacing the seat pillar with nice Kalloy suspension post, replaced the thumb gear shift with a Shimano Revoshift, carried out the Flecc mod to the throttle and fitted a nice soft pair of grips to the bars to help cushion the shocks.
I get about 16 to 18 bone shaking fast miles on a charge, this compares to 22 comfortable miles on my Lafree at a more sedate pace.
Don’t get me wrong, the Torq is well built and a real flyer, but some of the components e.g. throttle, power meter, light switch, seat pillar etc. are a bit cheap and nasty for a bike costing over £1000.
That’s my opinion, some may disagree?
If the Gazelle Easy Glider was as light as the Lafree, I would seriously consider getting one
Yes, I agree with everything you say. Perhaps it is a little bit relative to what one pays. How much quality should one get, particularly in detailed components and refined tolerances of moving/movable parts for the price? A matter of opinion - but that's not really the whole answer. Why not an examination and a report on the science (e.g. of making/supplying a good fitting seat post). I call it "denial by silence".
There is little criticism of detailed components published by owners on the Forum, except some oblique references to the perceived shortcomings from what they expected with a resigned "I suppose I shall have to put up with it" (brake judder).
A pity you have bought a new Suspension Seat Post (nice Kalloy). Did you opt for the 25.4mm size or did you 'twig' that with a minimum of 'refining' the next size up (25.6 mm) would be a much better fit and save that palm-crushing pain when trying to close the quick-release to hold the saddle securely?
I have a digital calliper which measures down to 1/100th mm (a bit over the top for this small job) and it told me the seat pin was 25.46 and the seat tube 25.66mm. Too large a tolerance to be easily 'crushed' to the size of the Seat Post (my experience).
I had a Roberts tourer, 531ST, and there was virtually no tolerance between seat post (alloy) and seat tube - a perfect fit, brought about by a tube reamer.
The residual problem was to keep the seat post well greased to prevent dissimilar metal seizure.
Perhaps other owners' bikes/seat posts are different (as seems to be inferred by all testimonials). Nothing but praise: No bone shaking ride from the front forks; no unsolvable brake judder; no flimsy tyres.

Peter
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
52,765
30,351
Flecc, how much time, money and considerable skill have you spent on making your Torq into the bike it should be?
Not much money, and if my changes were incorporated the bike wouldn't cost much more, which illustrates what I said above about knowing what makes a good bike. The knowledge is more important than the components, and some of the components I've used are actually cheaper and a downgrade on paper.

But it still uses the same battery meter, same throttle (though modded) and all the other basic electrical components. As said it's not possible to design and mass produce custom components for a small production bike, and wouldn't make a difference if it was in some cases.
.
 
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ITSPETEINIT

Esteemed Pedelecer
Dec 11, 2006
492
0
Mere, Wilts
Rattling good mudguards

Peter, my full size mudguards also rattle like crazy if I lift my left hand from the bars?
Flecc, how much time, money and considerable skill have you spent on making your Torq into the bike it should be?
Yes! That's because there is only one stay each side to support the length between fork crown and the lower end (I expect).
To take the "science of shake" further: Why do the forks vibrate so violently when one hand is removed, as in "My left hand palm has gone numb/hurts like hell"? Is it the geometry of the the head tube? I don't think it's the rigid forks; the Sprint does it too, even with suspension forks. I don't have the option to amend the mudguard stays on the Sprint without buying new guards. There's rather a strange/modern stay fitting at the mudguard end.

Flecc's efforts are the labour of love of a devotee of electric bikes. :cool:
Peter
 

Griswold

Pedelecer
May 17, 2007
34
0
Some manufacturers obviously play the marketing game - the fact that some bikes can be easily derestricted is one of them, I suppose they appeal to our inherent need to show off - hey look at me?
It reminds me of owning a 50CC moped (Honda MB50) in the 1980's and we all thought about ways to make them go faster - micron exhausts etc, which really only created noise, could have bought a Yamaha FSIE but didnt, these were legally faster but they were ugly!
Its in us all to try and improve things, but you shouldnt have to improve yourself, something you have paid a lot of money for!
I toyed with the idea of selling my Powabyke 24 speedcommuter- not a popular brand of bike on this forum! and listed it - didnt have much interest.
I came to my senses and thought, it does what I want it to do ie climb hills, also its legally restricted, I dont want to be involved in an accident and be liable, and be prosecuted for an illegal bike - I have small kiddies to think about!
Yes its heavy but Lithium batteries are out this month, Im going to get one - 2.7KG in weight and this bike will do for me.
Ive also changed the saddle - thanks to the advice on this forum.
Overall Im happy with the performance - the dealer network is good.
I read about the Presteigne Rally and yes a good idea, however, was it really all about speed? How can you win if some bikes are inherently faster than others? I thought the whole thing fairly ludicrous! a showcase again for hey look at me everyone!
They should have had an event to see how far the bikes would go on pure power - with pedalling on hills only - this would represent how most of these bikes are used?
At least the event is good to showcase new bikes and to bring to the general publics attention the good things these bikes can do - for the environment, saving petrol and for cutting down on traffic.
I suppose the market is at an early stage for electric bikes and can only improve!
Griswold
 
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coops

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 18, 2007
1,225
1
Manchester U.K.
I don't really have enough experience to comment on the quality of the components you mention Aldby, but battery meter component sensitivity, even to handling, has been mentioned by flecc, and if as much water as you say has got in I'm only surprised (I'm sorry to say) that there's not more damage than you say. I've found 50Cycles to be very helpful and to provide a good response when problems arise, why not speak to them & see what they say?

If you get 16-18 miles at speed, I should think you'd easily exceed 22miles if you ease off the throttle a little, assuming your terrain and, to a lesser degree, fitness allows (i.e. not too hilly)?

On some of the other issues mentioned by others:

I agree the ride felt through the handlebars can be hard, but as has been said on this forum very simple measures like slightly reducing front tyre pressure to say 45PSI (with the stock Kenda tyres), raising the bars to a more upright position and padding the grips can much reduce or even eliminate all sense of the hardness, while retaining the better handling of the rigid forks.

The brake judder issue doesn't affect all Torqs, nor is it restricted to the Torq, but the issue & some possible causes has been much discussed elsewhere: in my case, I finally found that the advice on headset tightening, plus "shoeing-in" the brake pads, seems to be stopping it, for the moment (fingers crossed) :).

I've also found, as some others have, the kenda "K-shield" tyres to give good puncture resistance - 500 miles flat free so far (touch wood!) - its very much a lottery though and some may just have been luckier than others.

I think overall the "standard" Torq does have unique "qualities" (much mentioned on this forum) which, if they are clearly and fairly stated (as they have often been on this forum) buyers can choose on an informed basis, as I did, because to some those qualities are very much a plus while to others they are not. I think the statement "the bike rider's electric bike", while not totally clear, certainly has some truth to it :).

Just my two pen'worth :).

Stuart.
 
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ITSPETEINIT

Esteemed Pedelecer
Dec 11, 2006
492
0
Mere, Wilts
Service under Guarantee/warranty

Hi Al
Secondly if it is still in warranty then of course we will do what we can to make your ownership a pleasant experience. We have done this many times for second hand owners.
Again we hope to keep everybody happy but this is not always possible with all types of people.
Scott
Hello Scott:
You can keep me happy simply by sending those missing items from the two Sprints I bought from you (I have now had 4 cycles from you) which are still under warranty (although your website said "Guarantee" when I bought them).
You would know the Cycles' frame Numbers from your records and my correspondence to you on the subject.
Those items are:
A Sprint Owner's Manual.
A third blank key.
An Invoice correctly dated for the purchase of the Sprint bought 25th May 2007 (the Invoice was dated 17th May 2007) this is necessary in the event of a warranty claim.

It is possible to keep all types of people happy:
you keep your obligations and promises,
accept that the products you sell don't always do "what it says on the tin" and don't minimize the shortfall,
and service your past customers' needs as you openly volunteered to do.

If you are still as busy as you said you were when I purchased the 2 Sprints, I have no objection to posting a reminder for you on this Forum in a week's time.

Regards
Peter Clutterbuck
 

rsscott

Administrator
Staff member
Aug 17, 2006
1,398
193
We currently do not have any spare manual because it would mean taking one out of a new box for the next customer, but we would be glad to pay for the photocopying of the one you already have.

Scott
Hi Scott,

if at a convenient time, I'm more than happy to scan in manuals and produce them in PDF format which we could make available on the site (or your own if you prefer). That's an open offer to all retailers.
 
C

Cyclezee

Guest
Scott,
I have sent you a private message with my personal details, frame No. and name of previous owner.
If I bring the bike to you, I would like to know if the following items can be 'sorted' under warranty as the bike is less than 1 month old and I am the 2nd owner.
1. Battery meter repaired/replaced and waterproofed.
2. Chain adjusted so that it does not hit the frame. The original owner added protection to the frame to prevent damage.
3. Front mudguard rattle rectified.
4. There are a couple of seconds lag before the power comes in when applying the throttle in assisted mode. Is this normal?

I would prefer a system where you can switch between restricted and derestricted at will depending on whether I wanted speed or distance. Guess this is a legal issue. In these litigious days I would prefer to stay legal, so would like some clarification. Mine was derestricted at the request of the original owner.

John
 

urstu

Finding my (electric) wheels
Jun 6, 2007
13
0
hi i own 2 sprints and a torque ,the sprints are great ,the torque i got carried away with what i would call marketing sh-peal when it came out concerning its speed and new lithium batts .I have none of the problems described,would i buy another one NO why £250 for a rubbish battery that only lasts 12 months,a battery which cuts off power when put under pressure,50 cycles need to reduce there lithium prices by about fifty per cent to make them viable or reintroduce m/hydride batts ,it seems only some electric bikes have difficulty in obtaining batts, is it a marketing ploy.1300m/hydride would be a step forward,until then my torque will be left to rot or get sold.
 

ITSPETEINIT

Esteemed Pedelecer
Dec 11, 2006
492
0
Mere, Wilts
Invoice, Key and manual

Dear Pete

We have had a new invoice system put in and I am afraid I cannot rectify the problem but if you say that there was a mistake and the date is the 21st then thats what it is in Black and White here.

We currently do not have any spare manual because it would mean taking one out of a new box for the next customer, but we would be glad to pay for the photocopying of the one you already have.

Regarding the Key if you can give us the key number for the one you require we will gladly get one cut for you.


Guarantee, I am pretty sure its always said warranty and can assume there was a typo somewhere in our literature if you did spot this. Please let us know if you spot it again so we can change it.

Hope this helps

Scott
Thank you for your speedy response to my requests:
The Spare key: A blank one will do fine (the blanks are all the same, basically?)

The Manual: I can photocopy the one I have - but a Manufacturer supplied one would have been better. I was puzzled that I did not get a Manual in the box that my Sprint was delivered in, but the box had been opened and there were other parts missing (Computer and Luggage Bungee - which you rectified). I am reluctant to mention other 'mysteries' that have puzzled me about that opened box - since no harm appears to have become apparent. I would wish to maintain a mutual good relationship with you.

The Invoice: I appreciate your predicament. I got one of the new invoice formats with the second Sprint I bought in June 2007 (very nice and comprehensive it was - except it did not show the numbers of the Frame, Motor or Battery, for future identification purposes). I will take a print of this posting and attach it to my copy of the invoice that has the incorrect date on it.

Guarantee/Warranty: I regret that this may embarrass you. The words Guarantee and Warranty still appear in various parts of your website. If they do not have the same meaning then this creates uncertainty and ambiguity.
The word "WARRANTY" appears in the "Other frequently asked questions".
The word "GUARANTEE" appears, even today, in the specifications for The Forza, The Forte and the Torq.
In the specifications for the Sprint, Liv and Quando there is no mention of either.

Kind regards
Peter
 

urstu

Finding my (electric) wheels
Jun 6, 2007
13
0
just like to make a point on the finnish of the torque and Chinese bikes in general it seems you can have any colour as long as it is black or clear laquer.laquer on aluminium frames was a novelty when they came out,not now . When you start charging up to £1500 pounds Matt black is not good enough,and what about the name stickers stuck on as an afterthought,we are after all buying Chinese made bikes,made in the cheapest place possible with a few European parts thrown in,the hike in price from the Sprint wold seem to be an effort to increase profit margins, because they did not think they would sell many at that price.don't forget also the improved performance of the fort &forza must be paid for,you do not get something for nothing.
 

coops

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 18, 2007
1,225
1
Manchester U.K.
urstu said:
1300m/hydride would be a step forward...
Ezee Nickel metal hydride (NiMH) batteries are available again (pre-order to avoid disappointment is the advice) from 50Cycles, urstu, if that's any help? :) by 1300m/hydride do you mean 13Ah capacity though? Would be nice, but I don't think the D size cells in ezee cases come in that capacity yet, unless you're thinking of a case 1.5times bigger (and 1.5x heavier too, though :eek:) for 13Ah F or 3D/2 size cells? :)

Am I right in thinking then, from what you say, that the Lithium batteries work better for the Sprints (lower peak current demand perhaps?) than the Torq, in your area?

Stuart.
 
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