For Lithium Batteries, whats the best way to charge them from new? Should they be completely run down and recharged, or should they not. Some instructions are very confusing?
John
John
New Torq Battery Charging
- Thread starter JohnInStockie
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John, unlike NiMh, lithium batteries should not be completely discharged if it's avoidable. Topping up at every opportunity will help to maximise the life of the battery.
I think Pete (ItsPeteInit) brought this up before somewhere John, if I find it I'll post a link.
ADDED: I see flecc has clarified it below, so no need.
Stuart.
ADDED: I see flecc has clarified it below, so no need.
Stuart.
Last edited:
Thanks for the clarification Flecc.
John, I'm curious why you're asking about Torq batteries, I thought you were a Giant owner, is there something you've not been telling us.
John, I'm curious why you're asking about Torq batteries, I thought you were a Giant owner, is there something you've not been telling us.
Lithium - Deep Discharge?
Remember that American Soap on TV - called .......yes!......SOAP.
It had the most convoluted plot. It was arguably the funniest thing on TV.
The start each instalment, after a run down of the events of the recent past, had the magic words: "Confused? You will be!".
I found the instructions for recharging Lithium batteries somewhat confusing at the beginning and followed them to the letter. (Both versions). After one of the two batteries I had failed after 80 miles (Mr. Ching was very sympathetic and offered to cover a replacement even though it was 8 months old). He went on to explain that Deep Discharge was not well tolerated by Lithium Batteries BUT, "New battery needs to be conditioned with 2 or 3 full discharge and charge cycles before it comes to the full capacity"..(per the Owner's Manual).
I apologised for suggesting that there was an element of contradiction in these instructions. I found Mr. Ching most gracious.
Peter
You're confused!
Remember that American Soap on TV - called .......yes!......SOAP.
It had the most convoluted plot. It was arguably the funniest thing on TV.
The start each instalment, after a run down of the events of the recent past, had the magic words: "Confused? You will be!".
I found the instructions for recharging Lithium batteries somewhat confusing at the beginning and followed them to the letter. (Both versions). After one of the two batteries I had failed after 80 miles (Mr. Ching was very sympathetic and offered to cover a replacement even though it was 8 months old). He went on to explain that Deep Discharge was not well tolerated by Lithium Batteries BUT, "New battery needs to be conditioned with 2 or 3 full discharge and charge cycles before it comes to the full capacity"..(per the Owner's Manual).
I apologised for suggesting that there was an element of contradiction in these instructions. I found Mr. Ching most gracious.
Peter
Project J?Ian said:John, I'm curious why you're asking about Torq batteries, I thought you were a Giant owner, is there something you've not been telling us.
That's correct John, and it's true for both NiMh and Lithium types when new. Three to four full cycles are needed to condition the electrolyte. Then Lithium batteries are at full nominal capacity.
NiMh however are still not quite at full capacity, and gradually increase their capacity over about 100 charges, thereafter gradually reducing again. And NiMh of course should have a regular full discharge to keep them in top form.
.
NiMh however are still not quite at full capacity, and gradually increase their capacity over about 100 charges, thereafter gradually reducing again. And NiMh of course should have a regular full discharge to keep them in top form.
.
Ah-ha! So what is their range?
From the specification for the Sprint 7:
Range under full power
Up to 20 miles without pedalling. 20-30 miles combining power and pedalling.
From the specification for the Torq:
Range
Up to 30 miles (though we've had reports of 35+ miles from some customers)
My first Deep Discharge of the battery on a Torq was 30 miles to "Dead Flat".
After that, one should, I suppose, restrict the use to 80% of capacity. That's 24 miles and after a year's use, probably only 80% of that, 19 miles. That's where I am at this time - 18 miles after 11 months.
Peter
So what may we take the range of a Lithium Battery to be from full to empty?
From the specification for the Sprint 7:
Range under full power
Up to 20 miles without pedalling. 20-30 miles combining power and pedalling.
From the specification for the Torq:
Range
Up to 30 miles (though we've had reports of 35+ miles from some customers)
My first Deep Discharge of the battery on a Torq was 30 miles to "Dead Flat".
After that, one should, I suppose, restrict the use to 80% of capacity. That's 24 miles and after a year's use, probably only 80% of that, 19 miles. That's where I am at this time - 18 miles after 11 months.
Peter
That's around the expected area Peter. Typically with normal use lithiums will lose around 35% capacity per year of the capacity at the start of each year.
If one is not ideally used by deeply discharging it all the time, the capacity loss can rise to as much as 66% each year.
The 80% discharge you mention is technically far from ideal, these batteries are best used at only about 20% of capacity or less each time before charging, but that's impractical of course. Just one of several reasons why some of us persist with NiMh, despite the nuisance of needing to do quite full discharges from time to time.
.
its delimited, and test ride pending Short range = Long Life
That is what I have gathered over the last 3 or 4 months (maybe even before).
What good is that? If one had the option to select NiMH it might, just might, be acceptable. Who wants an electric bike that has to be recharged every 6 miles (20% of full capacity at new)? I know some do. My bike is "not a satellite", spinning round the earth 50 or 60 miles up in the stratosphere (or troposhere, or whatever it's called): it is much more down to earth and does not have the benefit of Solar charging, nor does its battery run a system which demands only a fraction of what can be supplied.
What genius prescribed the Lithium battery for a high demand machine like an e-bike?
And yet it still goes on: many manufacturers/suppliers put Lithium into the bike package. There must be a very good profit on the regular supply of lithium batteries, which have a guarantee/warranty period of 6 months, to those who are not given an option. AND one pays 40% extra (over NiMH) for this 'advanced technology', which suggests it's better suited to that purpose. It is stated to be lighter and has a greater range than NiMH - it's burning the candle at both ends. (A danger of mixing a few metaphors here).
I am committed to continue to run my Lithium batteries down to about 80% of capacity because that is the sort of cycling I do (except for one trip a week to collect the newspaper). Even the Doctor, who I visit regularly, or the nurse (woooooo!) is 9 miles distant.
The first Lithium I had failed after 80 miles (and 8 months - rested during the winter). That's, ignoring the cost of the electricity to recharge it, £ 3 per mile. No wonder cars are so popular. The finite cost (GW) of which is shared by those who recommmend Lithium for e-bikes, et al.
Peter
"The 80% discharge you mention is technically far from ideal......."
That is what I have gathered over the last 3 or 4 months (maybe even before).
What good is that? If one had the option to select NiMH it might, just might, be acceptable. Who wants an electric bike that has to be recharged every 6 miles (20% of full capacity at new)? I know some do. My bike is "not a satellite", spinning round the earth 50 or 60 miles up in the stratosphere (or troposhere, or whatever it's called): it is much more down to earth and does not have the benefit of Solar charging, nor does its battery run a system which demands only a fraction of what can be supplied.
What genius prescribed the Lithium battery for a high demand machine like an e-bike?
And yet it still goes on: many manufacturers/suppliers put Lithium into the bike package. There must be a very good profit on the regular supply of lithium batteries, which have a guarantee/warranty period of 6 months, to those who are not given an option. AND one pays 40% extra (over NiMH) for this 'advanced technology', which suggests it's better suited to that purpose. It is stated to be lighter and has a greater range than NiMH - it's burning the candle at both ends. (A danger of mixing a few metaphors here).
I am committed to continue to run my Lithium batteries down to about 80% of capacity because that is the sort of cycling I do (except for one trip a week to collect the newspaper). Even the Doctor, who I visit regularly, or the nurse (woooooo!) is 9 miles distant.
The first Lithium I had failed after 80 miles (and 8 months - rested during the winter). That's, ignoring the cost of the electricity to recharge it, £ 3 per mile. No wonder cars are so popular. The finite cost (GW) of which is shared by those who recommmend Lithium for e-bikes, et al.
Peter
I share your view of lithium batteries Peter, whats the point in having a bigger battery when it soon gets smaller and your not supposed to use it all anyway.
The problem is that NiMh batteries are in short supply and prices are rising rapidly, of course the industry has turned the situation to their advantage by supplying lithium and promoting it as new technology, which you can't really blame them for as the alternative would be to say "sorry guys, no more NiMh so you've got to have lithium, it may not last long and it's more expensive". To put it like that clearly is not good business.
The problem is that NiMh batteries are in short supply and prices are rising rapidly, of course the industry has turned the situation to their advantage by supplying lithium and promoting it as new technology, which you can't really blame them for as the alternative would be to say "sorry guys, no more NiMh so you've got to have lithium, it may not last long and it's more expensive". To put it like that clearly is not good business.
I'm with Ian and yourself Peter on this question.
Lithium is only fit for purpose for short local trips in a low loading situation. It works in my Q bike because that never needs more than half throttle to do anything, and that bike chiefly does short journeys, just under four and just under six mile trips being the most common two, with charging straight after. Those trips are a small part of the thirty or so mile range.
On the T bike, lithium just couldn't do the job, so it had to be NiMh, simply because it does the job and will last. Despite the nickel price problem, they aren't really expensive when they last more than twice as long, they're still a bargain by comparison.
.
Lithium is only fit for purpose for short local trips in a low loading situation. It works in my Q bike because that never needs more than half throttle to do anything, and that bike chiefly does short journeys, just under four and just under six mile trips being the most common two, with charging straight after. Those trips are a small part of the thirty or so mile range.
On the T bike, lithium just couldn't do the job, so it had to be NiMh, simply because it does the job and will last. Despite the nickel price problem, they aren't really expensive when they last more than twice as long, they're still a bargain by comparison.
.
Bigger? Who said?
I can't be sure of my figures here but they are not so way out from reality.
Let's suppose it is said that Lithium are 20% bigger than NiMH: bUt if you can only economically (in the medium term - 2 years at the most) use only 20% of its capacity before recharging (the NiMH goes to the wire and loves it), then it is 120/100 x 20/100 of the size of the NiMH. I make that 30% of the size of a NiMH. I can't bring myself to work out what it might be in the 2nd year of its life.
I thought I was taking a ride. It seems we've been TAKEN for the ride.
Peter
That's the point Ian, it ain't bigger!
I can't be sure of my figures here but they are not so way out from reality.
Let's suppose it is said that Lithium are 20% bigger than NiMH: bUt if you can only economically (in the medium term - 2 years at the most) use only 20% of its capacity before recharging (the NiMH goes to the wire and loves it), then it is 120/100 x 20/100 of the size of the NiMH. I make that 30% of the size of a NiMH. I can't bring myself to work out what it might be in the 2nd year of its life.
I thought I was taking a ride. It seems we've been TAKEN for the ride.
Peter
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