Number Two

anotherkiwi

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 26, 2015
7,509
778
The European Union
#1
This is the thread for the conception/construction of my second pedelec build "Number Two". Why a second bike when you have one that works? My current bike frame is too small. It is also a 26" wheel which doesn't fit my use - on roads only and my riding style.

The bike hosting a GSM mid drive motor (without internal controller) is a Decathlon Riverside 3 diamond frame (woman's trekking bike if you must...) that came to me after being found in a dark corner rather broken. All that survived for this build are the frame and the Suntour entry level suspension fork. Some other bits were salvaged for use on my current bike.

As I am still very strapped for cash this will be a long drawn out process. I have already bought the controller and LCD - internal 36 V 20 Amp sine wave controller from BMSBattery 09 bottle battery with KT-LCD3. Power will be from a HobbyKing RC Lipoly battery pack as a test. Initially 10 Ah which will be expanded to 20 Ah if I decide that Lipo works for me. The cost of the whole battery kit including charger, Watt meters and Multimeter's etc is 180 € whereas a Li-Ion battery of 10.4 Ah costs 362 €. A first order of bike bits, some of which are not needed at this point, but I wanted to save on postage fees from Rose.de, is also on the way.

My first build cost 1049€ (£827) in 2015.
This build with all options will cost +1253 € (£987)

I will take photos and document as I progress.
 

anotherkiwi

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 26, 2015
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#2
An update and major change of course on the current build.

I have done 3000 km in relative discomfort (euphemism!) on a frame too small. So as Spring is springing and being out on the road is more important to me than building a fantasy bike, change of plan...

I have the cash and most of the bits for a cheap hub drive (Mxus) conversion so in the coming few weeks I will strip all the good bits off my current bike and put them on the bigger one.

Rather than taking the motor out of the wheel and lacing it into a new 28" rim I will sell it and buy a new motor and rim (or keep it as a spare). This will enable me to have a cassette rather than a freewheel and improve gearing - 48-38-28 on the front and 11-28 7 speed on the rear.

Avid Digit 7 V brakes front and rear. A Suntour NCX seat-post, mudguards and Schwalbe big apples and it is done. If the brakes don't live up to my expectations I have the option to mount a disk on the front.

I will keep my bottle battery as a range extender/get home energy source and continue along the path of Lipo (my dark side has won :rolleyes:)

Down the road if the money keeps coming I will build a Nexus 8 Inter into a wheel and get a GSM or Bafang mid-drive, but for now I need to be out riding more than I need to be hanging about waiting on sufficient funds to finish this project, the difference between the two options is just under 400€. I can build a dinghy for that...
 

anotherkiwi

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 26, 2015
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778
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#3
Well after writing all the above the money came in! Back to Plan A. Plan B is on hold but I think that down the line there is a future for the Mxus kit...

On order or to be bought locally:
- GSM mid-drive external controller version
- lots of bits from BikeDiscount.de
- rear wheel from Decathlon

In order to save a little here and there I will cannibalise my current bike for:
- batteries
- brakes
- derailleur(s)
- shifter and grips
- saddle
- pedals
- lights, bell and sundry...

And I already have in stock:
- 09 bottle battery 20 Amp 36 V controller with LCD-3
- speed sensor
- handlebars
- Tubus Fly rack (tiny, tiny, tiny :rolleyes: )
- Pletscher centre stand (Swiss goodness...)

Evolutions if this frame works out to be the right size and comfortable enough:
- bespoke battery box
- wired in lights b+m s-pedelec type with daytime running LEDs
- NCX seat post
- RST monoshock front fork and new headset
- Magura hydraulic rear V-brake
- 8 speed 11-34 cassette with two front chainrings (the Basque country is really steep) or Rohloff Nexus 8 Inter
- ...

Build photos and details to follow shortly! :)
 

D8ve

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 30, 2013
2,141
74
Bristol
#4
Rohloff please. It's on my list for biking heaven.
I can lose enough weight to more than balance the rohloff.
In fact I could do with losing enough for some SLA's :-0
 

anotherkiwi

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 26, 2015
7,509
778
The European Union
#5
All the bits* have arrived, score: England 1 - Germany 0, the motor got here first! :D

* MIA the rear wheel, I grabbed one from the rack at Decathlon without looking too closely because I was in a hurry. Wrong width, 13 mm instead of 19 mm 700C! So tomorrow I get to go back and exchange it.

To do: solder in external speed sensor as per d8veh's excellent tutorial.
 

anotherkiwi

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 26, 2015
7,509
778
The European Union
#6
So went to Decathlon and wouldn't you know! They only do screw on freewheels on their 28" wider wheels... I said OK I'll take an 11-28 screw on freewheel :rolleyes: and the guy shrugged and gave me my money back.

To cut a short story even shorter, ordered from Taylor Wheels (and saved 1.66€ including port) a 7-10 speed compatible cassette hub wheel - it comes with a 7 speed adaptor ring.
 

anotherkiwi

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 26, 2015
7,509
778
The European Union
#7
Controller conversion

Today I added XT60 plug and speed sensor to the 09 controller as per d8veh's tutorial linked above.

workbench.png

What does she mean "your bar looks like a bike shop from hell"? :oops:
Note the tiny electronics grade cutting pliers! All went well except that my black wire was much shorter than the one in the tutorial resulting in one of the worst looking solders I have done in my life so no "finished" photo from me.

jobdone.png

The finished article with its nice electrical tape cache :D

Plugged in and tested by passing the magnet in front of the sensor everything looks to be working. I set max speed to 25 km/h + or - 5% and the wheel to 28" while I was on the job. This LCD-3 was also set to 72 km/h out of the box! I just have to turn the max Amps down to 17 A and all is ready to go.
 

anotherkiwi

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 26, 2015
7,509
778
The European Union
#8
A tale of two wheels

My 28" rear wheel fought its way through French transporter strike hell and finally arrived three days late.

The wheel I picked up in Decathlon which was too narrow was a beautiful Italian made (apparently welded) twin wall rim very sloppily laced onto a no name hub.

My Taylor Wheels wheel is a "made in China" rim which is butted, not welded. On the other hand it is tautly laced with quality spokes onto a Shimano entry level hub.

Apparently you can't get the best of both worlds.

MIA this time: the spacer for fitting the 7 speed cassette... Is this the fault of the translator used on the Taylor Wheels site? If it says 7 speed cassette compatible you would expect the adaptor to be in the box! :confused:
 

anotherkiwi

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 26, 2015
7,509
778
The European Union
#9
Mounting the motor

All the bits are together at last, the LBS supplied the adaptors for the 7 speed cassette (0 €!)

the-bits.png

Why build a new bike? Here you can see the size difference.

upsizing.png

Fitting problems: the anti-movement bracket won't fit because of the centre stand mounting plate...

bracket-problem.png

So I used the simple bracket instead

mount-detail.png

I used this tool from my bike tool kit to tighten the two round nuts

the-right-tool.png

So that bit is done, now It just needs all the bits I am taking off the old bike and plugging in!

motor-mounted.png

To be continued...
 

anotherkiwi

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 26, 2015
7,509
778
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#10
No photos today because I was doing the greasy bits. Most of what was on the old bike has been moved over. I just need a longer rear brake cable, put the front derailleur on and cable the rear derailleur for Number Two to become a bicycle again.

I have been having PAS issues, the same ones d8veh had with the 09 bottle battery controller https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=69593 it is a four wire system and with waterproof plugs and internal PAS it is hard to tell which wire carries the signal... The motor works with external PAS but there I am having mechanical issues with getting the PAS disk to fit and turn freely...

Photos tomorrow when everything is attached. Oh and IT IS THE RIGHT SIZE FOR ME!!! I am very comfortably seated and my arms are finally in the right place and my back straight.

NOTE: the odometer total is stored in the LCD memory so I will be starting from km 0 with the new LCD and motor!
 

anotherkiwi

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 26, 2015
7,509
778
The European Union
#11
Taking bits off the old bike I look down and the rear tyre has failed on the sidewall! Lucky me I have a "new" bike and brand new tyres.

just-in-time.png

The front derailleur is coming off again, the chainline with the GSM won't allow me to use it as a chain retainer even adjusted all the way over.

drive-train.png

I am almost 1.80 m (1.795 to be precise) this last shot show why I am so chuffed about my upgrade. Yes that is a Shimano crank...

difference-in-size.png

I had a quick ride around the block without the motor and it stops and changes gears and is VERY comfortable. The Schwalbe balloon tyres really are fabulous!

Today more spannering and a powered ride perhaps?
 

anotherkiwi

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 26, 2015
7,509
778
The European Union
#12
So first ride on a mid-motor pedelec this afternoon, 1.8 km from "the workshop" back home. It goes like the proverbial bat from Hades! The motor does cut off, at what speed I don't know. Just to make things easier for me(...) the external speed sensor "works" when it wants to now. I think that I may be in speed control mode instead of imitation torque sensor mode because cutout happens at different speeds it seems depending on the assist level.

Left to finish: back mudguard and the cable run plus other niggley details, the fun stuff. :rolleyes:
 

anotherkiwi

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 26, 2015
7,509
778
The European Union
#13
side-view.png

Another afternoon and other than the cable run it is starting to look the job!

The SKS mudguards just fit... they are theoretically too small for the tyres I chose (47 mm max. 50 mm mounted) but I knew I was going to squeeze them in. The rear has 15 cm cut off so that when I am in the train the tyre touches, not the mudguard. I added the flexible rubber "pro" spoiler.

Minimalist Tubus fly rack, $$$ but so sexy and light weight.

Plescher centre stand that kicks up to the side, another $$$ option but hey! this is my car... :D It makes setting up brakes and derailleur a breeze.

The lights are temporary until I get the set that is powered from the battery.

Where is the battery anyway? Yes in the bottom of the pannier. For the moment that is the option I have taken, the triangle is ridiculously small. It is way back in the rear but the CG is just about at axle height so it rides like a dream. The cheapo Suntour fork is just fine for our potholes.

The end...

rear-three-quarters.png

Well almost the end, a good home built bike is never finished ;)
 

anotherkiwi

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 26, 2015
7,509
778
The European Union
#14
Road test

This is my first ride on a mid-motor pedelec (nope, never road tested a factory built bike...). First go up my 3.8 km hill, first ride in the rain and first crash test!

Mid-motor vs rear hub: it is different. More bike like? Hard to tell I always rode my hub bike using the gears like a normal bike. Gear changing is the same, no need to cut the motor before changing gears they go through as smooth as silk. Smoother than on the hub but: wheels different size, gear ratio different and a nickel coated Wipperman chain which is dead silent.

The GSM: I have the external controller version and after much trial and error and exchanges with Woosh* it is working with the 20 Amp 09 bottle battery controller with internal PAS. Smooth as silk power delivery, silent - much more so than the Mxus hub. I am still working on some minor details such as a cut-out button, the PAS is very sensitive, no need for a throttle on this bike it pulls away from a stop as soon as the slightest forward motion is sensed on the pedal.

On the road: the motor pulls like a train up the 3.8 km slope between Urrugne and Hendaye. 24 km/h + all the way up (instead of 19 km/h) in 2nd and 3rd gear (same gears as the hub motor but different ratios) mostly at around 270-290 Watts with a peak at 490 W. No heat in the motor at the top, barely warmer than ambient temperature and the controller warm to the touch instead of burning hot. Back down in 7th, I love having something under foot in top gear! No more spinning out at 45 km/h. I would estimate 65 km/h + as the speed sensor was not connected. Back into town and an "automobiliste" decided to pull away from a stop sign as I was leaning in to turn left in front of her. Brakes hard on in reflex, rain, brand new Big Bens, I went down with centimetres to spare between my head and her front bumper. Much bad language later I was back on the bike and running after re-plugging the PAS cable only victim of the incident.

After a couple hundred more kilometres I will have a better idea especially in the mountain passes over in Navarra. I think my gearing may be a little weak over there and that a 12-32 7 speed cassette will be required.

*Woosh - I would like to say a public thank you to all over at Woosh for the remarkable quality of your service, before and after sale. It is a pleasure working with you. Thank you for your patience as I think this may be the first marriage of GSM and BMS Battery 09 bottle battery controller on the road and I had lots of questions (often silly).

In the next episode: battery box and final fitting of cables and controller.
 

anotherkiwi

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 26, 2015
7,509
778
The European Union
#15
Battery box:

In the beginning I wanted a Samsung celled HL battery with internal controller, there is a 17 Ah one on sale in the Netherlands for 599€, ideal for the GSM. But it won't fit. So I drew a custom battery box made of ply and glass that will take the 09 bottle battery controller. It will accept 16 Ah of nano-tech lipoly or 10 Ah of multistar. In the mean time I need a quick and nasty way of attaching my batteries to this bike.

The other day I found this "aluminium" (yes, I know it is really paper thin aluminium on a harboard sheet) tool box at Carrefour for 9.90€:

battery-box.png

It will be getting a lock, the handle will be moved to the short side so that it can be lifted out of the pannier and I will fit a stainless chainplate so that it can be locked to the bike frame. The battery cable will exit from the bottom. Enough room for 30+ Ah of Lipoly AND two chargers and a power supply! It just fits nice and snug in my Decathlon pannier bag. Yes the 10.4 Ah bottle battery fits inside :cool:

The pannier bag will get a screwed on plate that the controller will be attached to and be permanently attached to the rack so that it can't move around. No risk of heel strike! The pannier bag is mostly for water protection I did think of fixing this case directly to the rack with Ortlieb fittings.

Weight distribution is no too bad with the lipos centered just above the axle so the CG is on a par with a battery on the downtube.
 
May 8, 2016
153
11
48
Surrey
#16
Plescher centre stand that kicks up to the side, another $$$ option but hey! this is my car... :D It makes setting up brakes and derailleur a breeze.
That stand is great, was adjusting my brakes today, and would have loved that! Awesome build and thread too ;)
 

anotherkiwi

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 26, 2015
7,509
778
The European Union
#17
Thanks! Just got back from a ride to Irun and back (about 30km) and learnt a lot.

Average speed: 26.31 km/h and the maximum only 55.63 but that is sitting up and it didn't feel very fast with the big wheels. All this is to be taken with a grain of salt because the GPS I don't really trust under the trees. I had a lycra in my wheel all the way down after catching him and following him to the top of the hill. I was sitting up, wearing jeans and sandles and him lying on the top bar of his road bike... That is great because before they used to leave me for dead on the spot on the way down.

Came back via the coast so got a chance to try out a real hill - 9% slope over a few hundred metres (average - bits at 12-15%). A bit vague in distance but the GPS wasn't switched on on the way back. I think that a 12-32 cassette has just moved up a notch on my "to buy" list if I want to get some mountain passes under my belt this summer. It was OK but I was really trying hard to stay in cadence in first gear (46:28).

Took the cycle path from hell to test the suspension and balloon tyres, shouldn't have, it really is the cycle path from hell... Ridable but had there been pedestrians (it is mixed) I wouldn't have been able to brake in time. :eek:

The GSM gets noisier (i.e. you can hear it rather than it being completly silent in normal times) when warm (very slightly warm to the touch) but it hasn't been greased yet. I have a crank creak which will be fixed tomorrow.

I am getting a 22 Amp controller next month which I will tune down to 18 Amps and have all the things I am missing - speed and distance to be more precise, the 09 controller won't do PAS and external speed sensor at the same time just one or the other. :eek:

Moved the seat all the way back, the frame is just about long enough for me but a L frame would have been even better than a M.

Tried my new Casco helmet for the first time because it was really sunny. Very comfortable and I love the visor. I don't wear it for security just because it is more comfortable than a cap, no bugs, cool air directed over the top of the skull and no sweat retention. And it stops my bald head from being burnt beetroot red! :rolleyes:
 
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anotherkiwi

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 26, 2015
7,509
778
The European Union
#18
After a week just using the bike as it was intended to be use I am enjoying it. I have over 60 km from a charge which is good considering the controller is set to 17 Amps.

I greased the motor and it is near silent. On my "days" off I'll do the last little things and then just get on with riding.

Then the incremental upgrades will begin probably starting with gearing.
 

anotherkiwi

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 26, 2015
7,509
778
The European Union
#19
Yesterday I bought a smartphone bag thingy to mount on the handlebars. Some interesting facts about GPS: it doesn't work under plane trees! You lose about 4 km/h as soon as you go under trees (I think the GPS goes into estimation mode when the signal is bad). So only the average speed can be relied on as it takes distance and time into account.

Average speed 26.33 km/h over 12.81 km (Irun -> Ciboure)
Max speed (taken with grain of salt, under plane trees) 53.28 km/h
Elevation gain 269 m (here again grain of salt because my GPS minimum is -72 meters...)
Ascent time 00:15:20
Average climbing speed 18.34 km/h, 107 meters gained over steepest 2.9 km

This bike is a little slower than the 26" hub drive. I think that can be improved on with the tyres inflated to 4.5 bar. I am also riding sitting up instead of hanging on for dear life perched on a tiny, tiny frame.

Cheap Suntour forks? Wooly handling at times, the bars kind of wash out when you ask too much (yes this is on a sealed road, I always ride my bike as if it was stolen... :D)

GSM? Purs like a kitten. I am now feeding it 18 Amps and have seen up to 560 W on the watt meter when being lazy but on all but the steepest slopes usually around 280 - 340 W. Yesterdays climb was in 1st gear 46:28 which means a cadence of just over 80 which is about average for me. In second (46:24) I would have been at about 70 but yesterday that didn't feel right. I have done that climb in second with only the last ramp at 12% in first gear.

The rear derailleur needs to be re-indexed. The chain slipped badly at just the wrong time (in traffic). I have to decide what to do about gearing: nexus 8 inter (Note: now available in disk brake version!)? 11-32 8 speed cassette?

To be continued...
 

trex

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 15, 2011
7,703
83
#20
I like geared hub with CD kits.
Even the cheapest Nexus 3 is still better than derailleur.
 

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