Suggestion that delivery companies should check their riders bikes are legal !!!!!!

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
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30,448
I have no problem with that
Then why do you obsess over it?

What is your problem with Cyrusher when they say this:

"So when you receive your new ebike now, there will be no throttle on the handlebar, and the motor is restricted to 250watts with a top speed of 25KMs (15.5mph).
Please note : Cyrusher do not condone the use of an unrestricted ebike on the roads within the UK."

In just about every country in the world these ebikes would be rated by their actual wattage
Not true, most of the world's countries have few or no pedelec regulations, but many are very similar to the EU, for example China, Australia, New Zealand, Turkey and EFTA countries. They all allow powers way over the nominal 250W.

It's open season how you interpret the wattage so why are so many pointing the finger at ebikes that are typically much lower wattage than mid-drive motors as illegal?
Precisely because they are often unregulated in so many other ways as well, for example 30 or 40 mph on bicycle brakes. Whereas the mid drive bikes from Bosch et al are strictly regulated down the approved assist speed limit and include all sorts of anti fiddling software. The power needed but without excess speed.

Why should someone with a 500W hub motor have to keep looking over their shoulder for the police but someone who has a 900W mid-drive motor does not?
Same safety reason as last answer.

I've dealt with hundreds of different certification standards in my time due to being a compliance officer previously and nothing touched the incompetence of EU ebike certification.
That is your mistaken opinion. Here is why you are wrong.

The wider EU, EEC and EFTA countries and China are where the machines powers have the most flexibility with regulation according to need.

And surprise, surprise, they are where assisted bikes have taken off so successfully. The rest of the world is nowhere in comparison.

Permitted power is a balancing act. 250 watts is often far too little to get up a hill or battle a headwind, 500 watts is often far too much when it is propelling at 30 mph, so flexibility is needed in how we allow pedelecs to perform to match a given need.

Hence the most extreme case of the 250 watt Lynch motor that delivers up to 5kW when that is needed to propel a pedicab or light delivery van at a slow walking pace. Or even the lowly early Powabyke which ouputted over 600 watts at 7 mph.

Get this into your head, that is how it has to be. Countries which don't allow that reality fail to make a success of assisted cycling, the USA being a prime example.
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AntonyC

Esteemed Pedelecer
Apr 5, 2022
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The only thing we have to do is comply with regulations, not make our own ideas of what somebody might have intended when they wrote them.
I don't think it's that simple, for example "Lord Rodger of Earlsferry's approach (in common with all those on the committee) was to identify the statutory intention to be imputed to Parliament in connection with the consequences of a breach" Soneji

I reckon the regulation wording is anything but incompetent and has the foresight to allow innovation in ebike applications. It can be waved at anti-cycle lobbies but technically the '250W' part hardly restricts us as individuals, it boils down to an engineer's opinion allowing those in power to end abuse by, for example, stopping certain imports if their usage gets out of hand. Cunning if you ask me, provided it's read carefully:

There is no regulation on how it should be rated other than the motor must be able to run at the rated power without overheating. It's normal in engineering to have a substational margin between the rated use and the actual use. The greater the margin, the less chance of failure. Safety margins of 300% are quite common.
 

StuartsProjects

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May 9, 2021
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Presumably those that suggest the power rules are abondoned or just revised are completly in favour of a very rigerous enforcement of the 15.5mph speed limit.
 
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saneagle

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 10, 2010
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Presumably those that suggest the power rules are abondoned or just revised are completly in favour of a very rigerous enforcement of the 15.5mph speed limit.
The 15.5 mph limit is absolute, easy to understand and fairly easy to test.

The only thing that would muddy it a bit is if someone adjusted the setting in their controller to misrepresent the speed displayed. Then, any spin-up test done by the police would show the motor cutting at a displayed speed of 15.5 mph, which should be enough to satisfy them, but the actual speed might be 20 mph. As long as you're pedalling, they'd have no way to determine whether it's you or the motor powering the bike, so measuring your speed by pursuit wouldn't work. It's only when you get up to speeds of say 25 mph or more (MTB or City bike) that it would be obvious. Considering all that, a clever person could almost certainly get away with a bike set to 20mph if they did it right.

Also, EN15194 allows a 10% tolerance on the 15.5mph for measurement errors, which brings that maximum speed to 17.1 mph.
 
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chris_n

Esteemed Pedelecer
Apr 29, 2016
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Niedeau, Austria
Police over here have a simple pair of rollers which they can use to measure speed, simple but effective. They are mainly used to find tuned Mopeds rather than ebikes but could be used if required.
 

saneagle

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 10, 2010
5,170
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Telford
Police over here have a simple pair of rollers which they can use to measure speed, simple but effective. They are mainly used to find tuned Mopeds rather than ebikes but could be used if required.
The problem with an ebike is that you have to turn the pedals to make the motor go. If it goes without pedalling, it's illegal, so they don't need to check the speed.
 

StuartsProjects

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 9, 2021
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Well maybe I am being overly cynical, but is it possible that there are people who want the, lets call them the 'daft' motor power rules, scrapped so that they can legally own a bike which can easily exceed the speed limit ?
 

guerney

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Sep 7, 2021
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I can easily exceed the speed limit already, but choose not to. I'd love to see 5kw cargo bikes making themselves useful on our roads.
 

guerney

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 7, 2021
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Police over here have a simple pair of rollers which they can use to measure speed, simple but effective. They are mainly used to find tuned Mopeds rather than ebikes but could be used if required.
Do they carry those rollers about in police cars?


The problem with an ebike is that you have to turn the pedals to make the motor go. If it goes without pedalling, it's illegal, so they don't need to check the speed.
If I'm ever stopped by cops, I might offer to let them ride my bike around a bit, if they leave me their gun, badge, car keys, house deeds, wallet and first born.
 

thelarkbox

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 23, 2023
857
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oxon
I personally consider an unrestricted e-bike a safer option than one restricted to a 15.5 mph speed limit. As on occasion the ability to speed up and out of a tricky situation could be a life saver.

But im a fat ol git with a house and savings to loose.. Not a teen with a deathwish and feeling of invulnerability.

Ideally ebikes like any other vehicle should be ridden/driven within regulated limits while maintaining the ability to 'speed out' of those 'sticky patches' all too often encountered on 2 wheels. However the practicality of monitoring and enforcing a cycle speed limit not to mention the additional strain administration of fines and appeals would place on the already burdened legal system, mean that 'restricted by design' ebikes are a very practical solution to a real problem.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
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Ideally ebikes like any other vehicle should be ridden/driven within regulated limits while maintaining the ability to 'speed out' of those 'sticky patches' all too often encountered on 2 wheels. However the practicality of monitoring and enforcing a cycle speed limit not to mention the additional strain administration of fines and appeals would place on the already burdened legal system, mean that 'restricted by design' ebikes are a very practical solution to a real problem.
I've reached the conclusion that it was far better in the 1940s, '50s and '60s when every assisted cyclist had to have their machine registered and number plated, insured and also had to have a provisional or full motorcycle licence.

That didn't put anyone off using one since there were well over a million on our roads by the mid 1950s, even my father who had never driven anything motorised got one to commute on in his late fifties and passed his test to get rid of the L plates. Having to be registered, insured and licenced hasn't exactly stopped the world adopting cars.

But the benefits were obvious. Fully acting throttle, no problem, you were a motorcyclist. Only pedal if you want to. Ride at 20mph, 30mph, 40mph, why not, no problem for a motorcyclist. Have whatever power motor you wanted. Upgrade anytime to a scooter or motorbike, no problem.

Having to be registered was no problem, the LBS fitting the assist motor did that and fitted the number plate.

All in all, life was actually simpler without the must pedal to get assistance rule, the 15.5mph assist limit, the 250 watts limit, the weight limits we were stuck with for nearly fifty years,the risks of prosecution or getting one's bike crushed.
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Az.

Esteemed Pedelecer
Apr 27, 2022
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I've reached the conclusion that it was far better in the 1940s, '50s and '60s when every assisted cyclist had to have their machine registered and number plated, insured and also had to have a provisional or full motorcycle licence.
Wow... that is almost exactly what I was going to write... and then run fast before mob would lynch me. Now we can run together... we have greater chances.
Registration and accountability is what I would like to see. I don't mind power and speed limit. However speed limit 15mph makes sense as most bikes are simply not designed to travel at 30mph.
My wife told me delivery riders few times nearly hit her and my daughters on pelican crossing on their way to or from school. They simply don't bother to stop. This "I couldn't give a fck" attitude so common in our society (and on this forum) is what bothers me most.
 

Craiggor 2

Pedelecer
May 30, 2018
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If someone wants something someone will sell it them. I’m car driver, motorcyclist and cyclist sick of them getting away with no registration and insurance.
 

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thelarkbox

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 23, 2023
857
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oxon
I would be happy with a cycle mot too, as long as costs are reasonable and no one is failed on a missing valve cap.

fwiw i experienced the opposite of Mrs @Az. 's experience yesterday me and 3 other cyclists and 2 x pedestrians are waiting at the same pelican crossing and when the lights go green, Everyone makes eye contact with everyone else prior to moving and time stood still for a few seconds.. When we realised what was happening everyone started to grin a little, or did i just imagine that as i rode off on a clear path.
 
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chris_n

Esteemed Pedelecer
Apr 29, 2016
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Do they carry those rollers about in police cars?




If I'm ever stopped by cops, I might offer to let them ride my bike around a bit, if they leave me their gun, badge, car keys, house deeds, wallet and first born.
Yes they carry them in some police cars, probably like traffic cars in UK.
 

chris_n

Esteemed Pedelecer
Apr 29, 2016
659
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Niedeau, Austria
The problem with an ebike is that you have to turn the pedals to make the motor go. If it goes without pedalling, it's illegal, so they don't need to check the speed.
They have used them to test for dongles on mid drive bikes, one weekend they stopped loads of bikes on one of the major cycle routes. The pictures I saw had 3 police, one on the bike and one each side steadying it.
 

thelarkbox

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 23, 2023
857
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oxon
But do you think it would be safer overall, if all e-bikes were unrestricted ?
The answer to that relies on way too many caveats to properly state in this media, best discussed over a few pints :) but essentially yes under conditions... such as registration of bikes perhaps even licensing etc...

As we stand now, probably not.

However i also fear that the fly by wire approach to EV's and their control is the thin end of the wedge that will apply similar hard level limits to all other vehicles too resulting in smart cars not allowing speeds beyond 20 in urban areas etc, or worse a car that shops you to plod with proof automatically as soon as you infringe any speed limit.. dystopia dawns..

And then there is my natural objection to paying for anything thats been intentionally devalued, handicapped and palmed off as premium.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
52,944
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But do you think it would be safer overall, if all e-bikes were unrestricted ?
In the days when most assisted bikes were petrol engined they had no speed restriction law. Whatever they could reach was ok, some could top 30mph still assisted, especially downhill.

And back then there were no cycle helmets, they weren't invented until over 30 years later. The population has grown by 25% since then, so unrestricted assisted cycling couldn't have been too lethal.
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Bonzo Banana

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 29, 2019
740
433
Then why do you obsess over it?

What is your problem with Cyrusher when they say this:

"So when you receive your new ebike now, there will be no throttle on the handlebar, and the motor is restricted to 250watts with a top speed of 25KMs (15.5mph).
Please note : Cyrusher do not condone the use of an unrestricted ebike on the roads within the UK."



Not true, most of the world's countries have few or no pedelec regulations, but many are very similar to the EU, for example China, Australia, New Zealand, Turkey and EFTA countries. They all allow powers way over the nominal 250W.



Precisely because they are often unregulated in so many other ways as well, for example 30 or 40 mph on bicycle brakes. Whereas the mid drive bikes from Bosch et al are strictly regulated down the approved assist speed limit and include all sorts of anti fiddling software. The power needed but without excess speed.



Same safety reason as last answer.



That is your mistaken opinion. Here is why you are wrong.

The wider EU, EEC and EFTA countries and China are where the machines powers have the most flexibility with regulation according to need.

And surprise, surprise, they are where assisted bikes have taken off so successfully. The rest of the world is nowhere in comparison.

Permitted power is a balancing act. 250 watts is often far too little to get up a hill or battle a headwind, 500 watts is often far too much when it is propelling at 30 mph, so flexibility is needed in how we allow pedelecs to perform to match a given need.

Hence the most extreme case of the 250 watt Lynch motor that delivers up to 5kW when that is needed to propel a pedicab or light delivery van at a slow walking pace. Or even the lowly early Powabyke which ouputted over 600 watts at 7 mph.

Get this into your head, that is how it has to be. Countries which don't allow that reality fail to make a success of assisted cycling, the USA being a prime example.
.
I don't obsess about it at all I simply don't accept a 900W ebike is 250W its as simple as that. You don't buy a 1500W washing machine and expect it to be 5000W and its clear the legislation still views these as 250W ebikes. This corrupt and incompetent legislation has created genuine confusion in the way it is legislated. We now have a huge amount of different motors all with completely different thermal characteristics all claiming to be 250W and to just state there is no maximum wattage rating is just ridiculous, is 50,000 watts acceptable? It's just not how certification is meant to be written, I've read perhaps 100s of certification standards in my time as a Compliance Officer and seen nothing as ridiculous as European ebike legislation in how it is written and implemented.

You only have to look at the government site;


What counts as an EAPC
An EAPC must have pedals that can be used to propel it.
It must show either:
  • the power output
  • the manufacturer of the motor
It must also show either:
  • the battery’s voltage
  • the maximum speed of the bike
Its electric motor:
  • must have a maximum power output of 250 watts
  • should not be able to propel the bike when it’s travelling more than 15.5mph
There simply isn't a connection between what the certification is allowing and what the legislators are stating, its creating huge confusion.

However I'm not saying ebikes need to be 250W I just want it to be fair to all types of ebikes as so many people on these forums and elsewhere pick and choose what they view as legal based on the farcical certification. We all know 250W was a ridiculous rating that almost no ebike keeps to, the logical continuous output always probably needed to be around 500-1000W for hill climbing and that is pretty much what you get in the USA in their legislation, factual and honest legislation.

It would just seem logical to have ebike legislation suitable for the UK and honest, something like 20mph maximum assistance speed, no restrictions on throttles to be as inclusive as possible and perhaps a continuous maximum wattage rating of 750W to 1000W. It might as well be 1000W to allow existing 250W mid-drive motors to continue to be legal as many wouldn't be legal at 750W. Clear and honest legislation I think would help sell ebikes to the British public as at the moment there is so much talk about illegal and legal ebikes its an un-necessary distraction.