To Loctite, or not to Loctite?

[Deleted member 33385]

How many of you Loctite your motor bolts? I noticed all of the bolts in my kit arrived with a little band of blue pre-applied loctite-like threadlocker. The bolts were a bugger to take off later on... Should I Loctite them again or is that going to cause a buildup of Loctite debris? I did notice squeaking when they were being screwed back in. Should I try and dissolve the previous Loctite with acetone? It's a vibrating motor, so Loctite Threadlocker seems sensible to apply to bolts. In the event of bolt threads gradually getting stripped through vibration, I don't fancy attempting to rethread holes in the motor casing to a larger size... ordered Loctite... I can't recall where my thread tapping kit is, hope I won't need it. It's the threads on bolts 1 & 2 which look as though they are wearing away a little via motor vibration, also the two nuts in the area marked 3 - the outer one had a very small amount of wear, which made it tricky to put back on. I don't like it... this wearing away of motor nuts and bolts...

In the second pic: wear near the top of the bolts. Loctite can't arrive soon enough...

 

[Fordulike]

I've never used Loctite on bolts 1 and 2 or lockrings 3, as I can torque these down adequately to prevent them loosening.

Where I do use Loctite (blue 242), is on the lockring that secures the axle inside the bottom bracket. Some members may have a large lockring and a small lockring, but I just use the large lockring with a drop of Loctite.

It's certainly harder to remove with the Loctite, but I've never had any issues in not being able to remove it. Plus, at least I know it's doing its job if the fastener is harder to remove than normal.

 

[Andy-Mat]

How many of you Loctite your motor bolts? I noticed all of the bolts in my kit arrived with a little band of blue pre-applied loctite-like threadlocker. The bolts were a bugger to take off later on... Should I Loctite them again or is that going to cause a buildup of Loctite debris? I did notice squeaking when they were being screwed back in. Should I try and dissolve the previous Loctite with acetone? It's a vibrating motor, so Loctite Threadlocker seems sensible to apply to bolts. In the event of bolt threads gradually getting stripped through vibration, I don't fancy attempting to rethread holes in the motor casing to a larger size... ordered Loctite... I can't recall where my thread tapping kit is, hope I won't need it. It's the threads on bolts 1 & 2 which look as though they are wearing away a little via motor vibration, also the two nuts in the area marked 3 - the outer one had a very small amount of wear, which made it tricky to put back on. I don't like it... this wearing away of motor nuts and bolts...

In the second pic: wear near the top of the bolts. Loctite can't arrive soon enough...
View attachment 40173

The OP has posted some really great and clear Photos, my compliments!
But do remember, it all depends upon which colour LocTite is used. The Blue should always allow bolts to be removed, without any damage to rider or parts, as long as the thread and head are in good condition, and the tools used are sitting snugly and not already worn out!
Blue (there may be several versions, check before purchase) is generally used where bolts must be removable eventually, but stay in place till that time.
There are other versions of Loctite that lock any bolt forever, especially if the Loctite recommended cleaning and priming is used! I believe that the colour and number will be different....
I myself have never used anything but blue, and I clean parts with Meths and let them dry before assembly, but I never use Loctite Primer.
Here are a few links about Loctite for anyone who is unsure of how to proceed:-

How to use Loctite? - Google Search

May I restate, use of the blue version (check carefully yourself please) is the safest option IMHO, but the links I posted should be better guides for the "job in hand"....
Regards for a Happy New Year.
Andy.
PS. Click on this link:-

How to use Loctite? - Google Search

 

[Fordulike]

Where I do use Loctite (blue 242), is on the lockring that secures the axle inside the bottom bracket. Some members may have a large lockring and a small lockring, but I just use the large lockring with a drop of Loctite.

I just thought I'd clarify why I only use one lockring.

Firstly, it's difficult to torque down the axle lockring(s), due to the fact that the caged thrust bearings will be easily damaged if torqued down too much. Believe me, I just learnt the hard way. Balls everywhere

Secondly, it's nigh on impossible to hold the thick lockring still, whilst tightening the thinner one. Unless you can find a way to tighten the thinner one adequately onto the thicker one, it will loosen with time. Not an ideal situation!

Therefore, I use just the thick lockring with a drop of blue Loctite, and tighten just enough to prevent any axial play. Is axial the correct word?

 

[Andy-Mat]

I just thought I'd clarify why I only use one lockring.

Firstly, it's difficult to torque down the axle lockring(s), due to the fact that the caged thrust bearings will be easily damaged if torqued down too much. Believe me, I just learnt the hard way. Balls everywhere

Secondly, it's nigh on impossible to hold the thick lockring still, whilst tightening the thinner one. Unless you can find a way to tighten the thinner one adequately onto the thicker one, it will loosen with time. Not an ideal situation!

Therefore, I use just the thick lockring with a drop of blue Loctite, and tighten just enough to prevent any axial play. Is axial the correct word?

I liked your fun comment about "Balls everywhere!" I really had to laugh about the comment, but not about the situation....as it was an awful situation for you I would guess, that probably happens more often than we might believe......
If I understood you correctly, and I do not know myself how the professionals do it, but I myself tighten the outer nut a little, then I check how free the wheel bearings are (check for sideways movement JUST being "used up", and if they are starting to get too tight, I undo the inner bearing nut (I have no idea what its correct name is, sorry!), a tiny touch untill the wheel turns freely again. I continue in this way, till everything that needs to be tight is, and that the balls/wheel, are still free and not bound up!
I have to say that I have done it this way for more years than I care to remember, and I cannot even say if I thought it out myself, or someone showed me! But it works! And I have never had any damage from doing this, which of course must be done to each side separately, even though one affects the other as well, you have to keep the whole assembly in your head, and think carefully what to do, and the effects of what you do.......as tightening the outer nut, will minutely move the inner bearing race/nut, towards the axle center, tightening the balls.
I was always taught in RN training, that a slightly/minutely "loose" bearing actually does less damage to itself, than one that is over tight.....though on car wheel bearings, that appears to be incorrect today, and many car bearings have a specific method of "loading up" the balls/rollers, using a specific torque system/method for that make and model.....
I would love to read about the correct "professional" method and the way it is done in a Bike repair shop, from someone here, as I would see it as a possible help for us all.
regards for a Happy New Year
Andy

 

[Fordulike]

I liked your fun comment about "Balls everywhere!" I really had to laugh about the comment, but not about the situation....as it was an awful situcation for you I would guess, that probably happens more often than we might believe......
If I understood you correctly, and I do not know myself how the professionals do it, but I myself tighten the outer nut a little, then I check how free the wheel bearings are (check for sideways movement JUST being "used up", and if they are starting to get too tight, I undo the inner bearing nut (I have no idea what its correct name is, sorry!), a tiny touch untill the wheel turns freely again. I continue in this way, till everything that needs to be tight is, and that the balls/wheel, are still free and not bound up!
I have to say that I have done it this way for more years than I care to remember, and I cannot even say if I thought it out myself, or someone showed me! But it works! And I have never had any damage from doing this, which of course must be done to each side separately, even though one affects the other as well, you have to keep the whole assembly in your head, and think carefully what to do, and the effects of what you do.......as tightening the outer nut, will minutely move the inner bearing race/nut, towards the axle center, tightening the balls.
I was always taught in RN training, that a slightly/minutely "loose" bearing actually does less damage to itself, than one that is over tight.....though on car wheel bearings, that appears to be incorrect today, and many car bearings have a specific method of "loading up" the balls/rollers, using a specific torque system/method for that make and model.....
I would love to read about the correct "professional" method and the way it is done in a Bike repair shop, from someone here, as I would see it as a possible help for us all.
regards for a Happy New Year
Andy

I use your method on my headset bearings, but unfortunately this isn't possible to do on the axle nuts, due to there being no space to hold the larger nut still. The recess makes this nigh on impossible

 

[Andy-Mat]

I use your method on my headset bearings, but unfortunately this isn't possible to do on the axle nuts, due to there being no space to hold the larger nut still. The recess makes this nigh on impossible

Really good point that I neglected to cover, "my bad!"
I bought myself a toolkit for bike owners many years ago, and in that kit, are special "thin" spanners (wrenches for the Americans here), that allow you to hold or adjust that inner nut very easily. The proper name for them I do not know, sorry!
Check these out:-

15 in 1 BICYCLE BIKE NUT WHEELS CYCLING STEEL HEX HEXAGON SPANNER REPAIR TOOL | eBay

15 in 1 Hexagon Spanner Bike Tool. Find the right sized tool to fix your bike with this bicycle wrench. Small and compact chain tool,it can be carried at anywhere.

www.ebay.co.uk

Mine look a bit different, but do the same job. Here is a UK Job lot:-

8 OLD BIKE SPANNERS, WHEEL NUTS, CONES, BOTTOM BRACKET ETC | eBay

8 OLD BIKE SPANNERS, WHEEL NUTS, CONES, BOTTOM BRACKET ETC. Condition is "Used". Dispatched with Royal Mail 2nd Class.

www.ebay.co.uk

I hope that helps.
Andy

 

[Deleted member 33385]

I've never used Loctite on bolts 1 and 2 or lockrings 3, as I can torque these down adequately to prevent them loosening.

Where I do use Loctite (blue 242), is on the lockring that secures the axle inside the bottom bracket. Some members may have a large lockring and a small lockring, but I just use the large lockring with a drop of Loctite.

It's certainly harder to remove with the Loctite, but I've never had any issues in not being able to remove it. Plus, at least I know it's doing its job if the fastener is harder to remove than normal.

The weird thing about bolts 1 & 2 is that they didn't seem loose, but they're still showing wear - what might be happening is that because the dimpled plate which bolts 1 and 2 secure to the frame, are biting into a soft aluminium frame... that plate might make room for itself by sinking into the metal, which means I should tighten once, and then tighten again a day or so later, so that there is no lateral movement possible. From the look of those bolts, Loctite Blue can't arrive soon enough...

 

[Deleted member 33385]

The OP has posted some really great and clear Photos, my compliments!

It's just the "Zoom" 2X lens on my OnePlus phone - even the rubbish cameras on phones can do a decent job, if given enough light... and it was 1325 lumens in my workshop, and only 100 lumens outside today.

I myself have never used anything but blue, and I clean parts with Meths and let them dry before assembly, but I never use Loctite Primer.
Here are a few links about Loctite for anyone who is unsure of how to proceed:-
How to use Loctite? - Google Search May I restate, use of the blue version (check carefully yourself please) is the safest option IMHO, but the links I posted should be better guides for the "job in hand"....
Regards for a Happy New Year.
Andy.
PS. Click on this link:-
How to use Loctite? - Google Search

Thanks for all that info. Gosh now I'm going to have to get Loctite primer or meths - think I've run out.

 

[Deleted member 33385]

Firstly, it's difficult to torque down the axle lockring(s), due to the fact that the caged thrust bearings will be easily damaged if torqued down too much. Believe me, I just learnt the hard way. Balls everywhere

Really? Marvellous design! Again, Loctite can't arrive soon enough - I did 16.5 miles last night and already the thick lockring is looser. How did you notice the balls being everywhere? Were they loose and rattling around inside the motor?

 

[Andy-Mat]

It's just the "Zoom" 2X lens on my OnePlus phone - even the rubbish cameras on phones can do a decent job, if given enough light... and it was 1325 lumens in my workshop, and only 100 lumens outside today.

Thanks for all that info. Gosh now I'm going to have to get Loctite primer or meths - think I've run out.

Meths is many, many times cheaper, and far more useful for other jobs as well, but NOT for tasting!
Regards
Andy

 

[Fordulike]

Really? Marvellous design! Again, Loctite can't arrive soon enough - I did 16.5 miles last night and already the thick lockring is looser.

The whole design is actually incredibly good, but there are one or two areas which could be improved upon. The axle lockrings being one of them. To be fair to Bafang, they do improve on the design from time to time.

How did you notice the balls being everywhere? Were they loose and rattling around inside the motor?

I had taken the final drive assembly out to try and solve an intermittent PAS problem. As well as a cracked PAS disc, I noticed one of the thrust bearings had been crushed to the point that it was unserviceable. Hence, my balls were all over the place

 

[Deleted member 33385]

Hence, my balls were all over the place

How did you solve your puzzle of the runaway balls?

 

[Deleted member 33385]

Meths is many, many times cheaper, and far more useful for other jobs as well, but NOT for tasting!
Regards
Andy

Yes but would my postman burst into flames if he lit a cigarette? Those things'll kill ya.

 

[Deleted member 33385]

The whole design is actually incredibly good

I agree, this BBS01b is the best money I've spent in awhile, couldn't spend it on drugs and whores because of lockdown.

 

[Fordulike]

How did you solve your puzzle of the runaway balls?

The censored version is that I ordered a new bearing.

 

[Deleted member 33385]

The censored version is that I ordered a new bearing.

Where on earth did you find a place to get new balls?

One missing is more common than you might imagine:

http://www.curiousread.com/2009/05/10-famous-men-with-only-one-ball.html

 

[Fordulike]

Where on earth did you find a place to get new balls?

One missing is more common than you might imagine:

http://www.curiousread.com/2009/05/10-famous-men-with-only-one-ball.html

I don't know which is more eye opening, the fact we're talking about balls on an electric bike forum, or that you probably Googled the subject for that link

 

[Deleted member 33385]

I don't know which is more eye opening, the fact we're talking about balls on an electric bike forum, or that you probably Googled the subject for that link

No Googling necessary - it's bookmarked to remind me to check my balls every so often, and now I've got to check my motor's too - that's all very useful information regarding the bearings Fordulike. There is so much to balls we are not aware of, yet we play with them all the time (at least I do).

 

[Andy-Mat]

No Googling necessary - it's bookmarked to remind me to check my balls every so often, and now I've got to check my motor's too - that's all very useful information regarding the bearings Fordulike. There is so much to balls we are not aware of, yet we play with them all the time (at least I do).

Pocket Billiards?
Andy