Trying to find supplier for rear hub +colour display

nelf

Finding my (electric) wheels
Apr 2, 2021
18
0
Northumberland
I've been browsing aliexpress for a good few hours trying to find a supplier that has:

Rear hub motor 1,000-1,500w conversion kit (all except battery, ideally)
26"
135mm dropout
Colour display with usb charging port - something like a 850C / P850C / 860C

It's not important that the kit comes with one of those displays, it just needs to be able to support it if I buy it from somewhere else but I cannot find the information that says which displays are supported by the controller - Maybe i'm missing something?

Does anyone have any advice?
 

vfr400

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jun 12, 2011
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Why do you want a 1000-1500w motor? If you haven't tried one, it's probably not going to be as good as you think/hope, though they do suit some people in the right circumstances.
 

Nealh

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Aug 7, 2014
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Have you factored in over £500 for top draw battery with pucker 25a cells ?
 
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nelf

Finding my (electric) wheels
Apr 2, 2021
18
0
Northumberland
Why do you want a 1000-1500w motor? If you haven't tried one, it's probably not going to be as good as you think/hope, though they do suit some people in the right circumstances.
I haven't tried one however i'm quite happy to pay a little more for a more powerful setup to future-proof this build (if I move somewhere hilly for example).

Have you factored in over £500 for top draw battery with pucker 25a cells ?
I don't mind paying top dollar for a good quality battery that can supply enough juice - From researching em3ev seems to be pretty well regarded - I don't really know much about batteries although i've read a few pages, it's still quite new to me - do you have a recommendation from here or do you have a different store in mind?



I think I may have found the place to order my kit from, but will do more research over the next day or two.

Likely from here: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4001049722406.html

There are some upgrades that are offered, e.g a better PAS sensor.

If anyone has any recommendations for places to buy the conversion kit or battery i'm all ears!

Thanks!
 

Benjahmin

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 10, 2014
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Hold up Nelf, before you spend your hardearned.
The motor you're looking at will certainly be direct drive. These are godd at high speed on the flat. Not good at stop start riding or hill climbing. At low speeds they are innefficient, converting a lot of your precious battery power to heat. They are renowned for eating batteries.
The '1000w -1500w' rating is misleading. This is the power the motor can take continuously without over heating, but has nothing to do with the power developed at the wheel. This is governed by the controllers maximum current and what the battery is able to supply, limited by cell rating and bms maximum current.
A geared hub - rated at 250w- may sound weedy in comparison but will still operate at 6-700w on maximum setting.
However there are several major differences.
It's legal
It's way lighter
It'll give you far more range from a given battery
It develops more torque for hill climbing than any DD motor.

So, if you're up for short, high speed runs on the flat, carry on with your order.
If you want a bike that actually gets places - ask a few more questions.
 

PC2017

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Sep 19, 2017
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Maybe a good idea to familiarise yourself with the difference between direct drive and geared hub.
 

vfr400

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jun 12, 2011
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It would be better to let people help you, but learning by doing is equally valid. It'll probably take a bit longer and cost more to end up with a suitable solution though.
 

nelf

Finding my (electric) wheels
Apr 2, 2021
18
0
Northumberland
Hold up Nelf, before you spend your hardearned.
The motor you're looking at will certainly be direct drive. These are godd at high speed on the flat. Not good at stop start riding or hill climbing. At low speeds they are innefficient, converting a lot of your precious battery power to heat. They are renowned for eating batteries.
The '1000w -1500w' rating is misleading. This is the power the motor can take continuously without over heating, but has nothing to do with the power developed at the wheel. This is governed by the controllers maximum current and what the battery is able to supply, limited by cell rating and bms maximum current.
A geared hub - rated at 250w- may sound weedy in comparison but will still operate at 6-700w on maximum setting.
However there are several major differences.
It's legal
It's way lighter
It'll give you far more range from a given battery
It develops more torque for hill climbing than any DD motor.

So, if you're up for short, high speed runs on the flat, carry on with your order.
If you want a bike that actually gets places - ask a few more questions.
You make some good points - I remember reading some articles on geared vs direct drive recently however it totally slipped my mind to check when looking at suppliers. Honestly though i'm not too fussed which I get - I suppose a geared would be better due to being lighter and more efficient.

I've been looking at aliexpress listings and some UK suppliers for a few weeks now and am just really wanting to place an order sooner rather than later as I know there will be a wait of a good few weeks before it arrives - by then we'll be well into summer so not a lot of riding time left before the cold arrives.

The thing that puts me off from UK suppliers is the 250w cap - if they can supply a good quality motor that can produce a lot more via a programming cable then I don't mind buying via UK and paying a small premium. I'm afraid they might be supplying a motor that maxes out near 250w leaving little power to play around with.

It would be better to let people help you, but learning by doing is equally valid. It'll probably take a bit longer and cost more to end up with a suitable solution though.
I totally agree - Very happy to have people here that can offer advice. I've been reading a bunch of forum posts here and other places as there is a goldmine of information available however it's quite overwhelming for a newbie to take it all in.

The now updated list is this - hopefully realistic:

Rear hub motor - geared preferred (with cassette?)
26"
hydraulic brakes + sensors etc (current bike has disc brakes and not hydraulic)
cadence sensors
throttle
colour display with usb charging
shark battery - em3ev supplier most likely

--

What i've noticed is most controllers seem to be KT which only pair with KT displays?

If i'm wanting 850C / P850C / 860C displays then i'll need a Bafang controller?

Any links to where to get a conversion kit is appreciated. :)
 

vfr400

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jun 12, 2011
8,706
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Basildon
You make some good points - I remember reading some articles on geared vs direct drive recently however it totally slipped my mind to check when looking at suppliers. Honestly though i'm not too fussed which I get - I suppose a geared would be better due to being lighter and more efficient.

I've been looking at aliexpress listings and some UK suppliers for a few weeks now and am just really wanting to place an order sooner rather than later as I know there will be a wait of a good few weeks before it arrives - by then we'll be well into summer so not a lot of riding time left before the cold arrives.

The thing that puts me off from UK suppliers is the 250w cap - if they can supply a good quality motor that can produce a lot more via a programming cable then I don't mind buying via UK and paying a small premium. I'm afraid they might be supplying a motor that maxes out near 250w leaving little power to play around with.



I totally agree - Very happy to have people here that can offer advice. I've been reading a bunch of forum posts here and other places as there is a goldmine of information available however it's quite overwhelming for a newbie to take it all in.

The now updated list is this - hopefully realistic:

Rear hub motor - geared preferred (with cassette?)
26"
hydraulic brakes + sensors etc (current bike has disc brakes and not hydraulic)
cadence sensors
throttle
colour display with usb charging
shark battery - em3ev supplier most likely

--

What i've noticed is most controllers seem to be KT which only pair with KT displays?

If i'm wanting 850C / P850C / 860C displays then i'll need a Bafang controller?

Any links to where to get a conversion kit is appreciated. :)
Before we can tell you anything, you need to show us which bike you plan to convert, then tell us in detail what you expect to do with it, plus, we need to know your weight and fitness.
 

nelf

Finding my (electric) wheels
Apr 2, 2021
18
0
Northumberland
Before we can tell you anything, you need to show us which bike you plan to convert, then tell us in detail what you expect to do with it, plus, we need to know your weight and fitness.
It's a GT avalanche 3.0 hardtail mountain bike

6'4 / 195 cm | 240lbs / 17 stone
Bike usage is for general fitness, not commuting so i'll be using it on cycle paths, offroad and probably roads.

Fitness is pretty bad right now, it's the reason why I want an ebike and not a normal one so i can exercise without dying. :D
 

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Scruffydroid

Finding my (electric) wheels
Dec 12, 2020
17
12
I'm not sure why you are so keen on USB charging? I converted my 26" Hardtail using this kit (with the additional hydraulic disk brakes, 4A charger, and heavy duty wheel).


It is NOT road legal, however it will do 35mph. Range at level 1 in excess of 60 miles. Level 1 with easy pedalling 16mph. Added Suntour NCX suspension seat post for comfort.

It's fine for gentle trails (think bridleways / track), and will require pedal/gear-down effort to get you up 40° off-road inclines.
 

vfr400

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jun 12, 2011
8,706
3,458
Basildon
If you want to go off-road, a crank-motor would be better. Hub-motors win on tarmac. Only you know what sort of riding you're going to do.

In case you don't know the legal situation, to be legal, your bike's power must cut off at 15.5 mph and the motor must be rated at no more than 250w, though there's no limit on how much power it makes.

There are a few ways you can get a lot of power and still be legal. You can take a medium sized 36v 250w hub-motor and run it at 48v or you can get the special version 250w BBS01 crank motor that runs at 25 amps. If you release the speed limit, it will become illegal wherever you use it, so if you're going to do that, you can get whatever motor you want.

Here's some general advice. A bicycle like yours will be fine up to around 22 mph as long as you upgrade your brakes to hydraulic. Above that speed, the ride starts to become less relaxing. The drivers don't register your speed because it's not in their frame a reference, so before long, you'll notice that you're getting a lot of near misses if you're lucky. Your MTB tyres are just not up to the job when it comes to stopping from high speed and your kidneys and wrists will take a hammering. You will soon see that riding above 20 mph is not a lot of fun. It's great to do it for 5 minutes or when your in the mood for high concentration, but becomes tedious if you just want to go for a nice ride or for commuting.
 

nelf

Finding my (electric) wheels
Apr 2, 2021
18
0
Northumberland
Thanks for the replies guys, I really appreciate it!

I'm not sure why you are so keen on USB charging? I converted my 26" Hardtail using this kit (with the additional hydraulic disk brakes, 4A charger, and heavy duty wheel).


It is NOT road legal, however it will do 35mph. Range at level 1 in excess of 60 miles. Level 1 with easy pedalling 16mph. Added Suntour NCX suspension seat post for comfort.

It's fine for gentle trails (think bridleways / track), and will require pedal/gear-down effort to get you up 40° off-road inclines.
USB charging is one of things of, why not - it's not expensive and can come in useful if i'm out all day and using my phone for GPS/music. Sure I could bring a portable battery pack but I already have a huge battery on my bike. :)

Andy Kirby's kit does look pretty decent - I know someone that has bought it and he has no complaints. After doing some research it seems he might be drop-shipping it from Ncycle - they have an alibaba and aliexpress store: https://ncyclebike.aliexpress.com/store/2214086

https://www.reddit.com/r/ebikes/comments/hf6use
Is Kirby's a direct drive motor?

If you want to go off-road, a crank-motor would be better. Hub-motors win on tarmac. Only you know what sort of riding you're going to do.

In case you don't know the legal situation, to be legal, your bike's power must cut off at 15.5 mph and the motor must be rated at no more than 250w, though there's no limit on how much power it makes.

There are a few ways you can get a lot of power and still be legal. You can take a medium sized 36v 250w hub-motor and run it at 48v or you can get the special version 250w BBS01 crank motor that runs at 25 amps. If you release the speed limit, it will become illegal wherever you use it, so if you're going to do that, you can get whatever motor you want.

Here's some general advice. A bicycle like yours will be fine up to around 22 mph as long as you upgrade your brakes to hydraulic. Above that speed, the ride starts to become less relaxing. The drivers don't register your speed because it's not in their frame a reference, so before long, you'll notice that you're getting a lot of near misses if you're lucky. Your MTB tyres are just not up to the job when it comes to stopping from high speed and your kidneys and wrists will take a hammering. You will soon see that riding above 20 mph is not a lot of fun. It's great to do it for 5 minutes or when your in the mood for high concentration, but becomes tedious if you just want to go for a nice ride or for commuting.
That's some solid advice. I'll likely be keeping the 15.5 mph limit in place but it'll be nice to have the option to remove it for the odd occasion.

For now I think a rear hub is what i'm looking for - Geared would be nice but either will likely do.

What difference can I expect with having a 36v 250w hub motor running at 48v vs using a 48v 1500w - faster acceleration and/or maximum speed difference?

As for the tyres, you're totally right about the stopping power being very limited - originally I was wanting to go wider on the tyres for that reason, but for now i'll stick with the MTB I have and not rag it.

For tyre upgrades (current ones are a decade old and likely have a puncture or two) I was looking at Schwalbe Marathon Plus - i'll revisit tyre options more thoroughly once I have the kit bought as the kit is the priority right now!

---

So far my shopping list is this:

Rear hub motor - geared preferred (with cassette?)
26"
hydraulic brakes + sensors etc (current bike has disc brakes and not hydraulic)
cadence sensors
throttle
bafang controller that can pair with 850C / P850C / 860C
shark battery - em3ev supplier most likely
 

vfr400

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jun 12, 2011
8,706
3,458
Basildon
Those big direct drive motors that you linked to are massive. when you put one of those in, you no longer have a bicycle. you can't pedal them without power, but if you want to get fit, that could be a good thing if you don't die of a heart attack. They're totally useless at less than 20mph where they become very inefficient. If you want mainly 15.5 mph max, a geared hub-motor would be much better. Woosh do a nice 48v kit, which gives a lot of power (when they have stock), otherwise you'll probably have to do a mix and match kit from various supplers. What is it with wanting a Bafang controller and display?

Motors don't actually have a voltage. The voltage is only used to reference the speed. The higher the voltage, the faster the motor goes, so a 36v 15mph motor becomes a 48v 20mph one, and at the same time the higher voltage gives 30% more torque, so you get better hill, climbing and more power to reach the higher speed.

the most important characteristic of a hub-motor is it's maximum RPM at nominal voltage (Kv). From that, you can predict its behaviour at any voltage and speed. If you buy a motor without knowing what that is, you could end up disappointed.

At your weight and size, you'd need at least a medium sized motor, like an SWX02C, Q128C, XF08C or equivalent, or something bigger, though it's difficult to find big 250w geared motors now. They're mainly rated at 500w.

I still think a crank motor would be a better option considering that you want to go off road.
 

nelf

Finding my (electric) wheels
Apr 2, 2021
18
0
Northumberland
Those big direct drive motors that you linked to are massive. when you put one of those in, you no longer have a bicycle. you can't pedal them without power, but if you want to get fit, that could be a good thing if you don't die of a heart attack. They're totally useless at less than 20mph where they become very inefficient. If you want mainly 15.5 mph max, a geared hub-motor would be much better. Woosh do a nice 48v kit, which gives a lot of power (when they have stock), otherwise you'll probably have to do a mix and match kit from various supplers. What is it with wanting a Bafang controller and display?

Motors don't actually have a voltage. The voltage is only used to reference the speed. The higher the voltage, the faster the motor goes, so a 36v 15mph motor becomes a 48v 20mph one, and at the same time the higher voltage gives 30% more torque, so you get better hill, climbing and more power to reach the higher speed.

the most important characteristic of a hub-motor is it's maximum RPM at nominal voltage (Kv). From that, you can predict its behaviour at any voltage and speed. If you buy a motor without knowing what that is, you could end up disappointed.

At your weight and size, you'd need at least a medium sized motor, like an SWX02C, Q128C, XF08C or equivalent, or something bigger, though it's difficult to find big 250w geared motors now. They're mainly rated at 500w.

I still think a crank motor would be a better option considering that you want to go off road.
I want a nice looking colour display with USB charging - 850C / P850C / 860C are ideal and from what I was reading you need to get a compatible controller. KT controllers only match with KT displays - so I figured Bafang match with Bafang?

KT-LCD8H also fits the bill for colour+USB charging, so if the controller in a kit is KT hopefully it'll be compatible and I can buy the display separate if necessary.

If I were to go with Woosh and get a SWX02 (or a XF08C or DWG22C) kit for example (no stock currently) - Using a programming cable I should be able to adjust the max speed, throttle speed and power settings?

I've noticed that a lot of 250w motors are 500w like you said - is that plenty of power to play around with?

I think offroad isn't such a priority, I may end up sticking to cycle paths/roads so would be looking for a rear hub. If in future I decide to focus more on offroad I can always work on a second build! :D

Regarding batteries, there are some horror stories out there about dodgy ones - I know Woosh has a good reputation on these forums - have many people taken a look inside their batteries to see the quality of materials/soldering etc?
 

Benjahmin

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 10, 2014
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How hard is this to get through?
The power rating of a motor has nothing, nada, nichts, bugger all to do with what it actually develops.
So a 250w rated motor can develop as much power as a 250w rated one, given the same controller.
The 500w one will be illegal, the 250w one won't. In truth they are probably the same motor but labelled differently - mainly for the U.S. market - where there is also an obsession with big numbers. Anything labelled over 250w is not legal on our roads.
Fitting a higher rated motor does not give you anything 'more to play with'.
So all the bigger number gets you is illegality.
As vfr has explained at some length, you want more torque and speed, fit a 36v motor, connect it to a good 48v battery (capable of delivering controller max current plus some) and 48v controller.
 
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nelf

Finding my (electric) wheels
Apr 2, 2021
18
0
Northumberland
How hard is this to get through?
The power rating of a motor has nothing, nada, nichts, bugger all to do with what it actually develops.
So a 250w rated motor can develop as much power as a 250w rated one, given the same controller.
The 500w one will be illegal, the 250w one won't. In truth they are probably the same motor but labelled differently - mainly for the U.S. market - where there is also an obsession with big numbers. Anything labelled over 250w is not legal on our roads.
Fitting a higher rated motor does not give you anything 'more to play with'.
So all the bigger number gets you is illegality.
As vfr has explained at some length, you want more torque and speed, fit a 36v motor, connect it to a good 48v battery (capable of delivering controller max current plus some) and 48v controller.
Ah I see now!

This post below also helped me understand it, in case anyone else was also confused:

250w is a power rating. So saying you want the most powerful 250 watt motor is like saying you want the heaviest 10 pound weight.

If you want more torque or more acceleration, you can achieve that through gearing. If you want more speed, same thing. 250 watts is 250 watts, regardless....

Until it's not. And that's where respecting the letter of the law versus respecting the spirit of the law become an issue. a 250w motor is only a 250w motor because someone read the local laws and decided they could make their motor meet those laws by one of several ways.
1) average nominal power. in some places, the law is writen to state that an ebike must be rated for 250w nominal power, and understands that the motor will often pull higher power during acceleration and on hills, but is governed for around 20kph and won't often exceed 250w.
2) absolute max power. there are places where the law is written to govern the absolute max power, and a hard cap must be put on the power draw of the motor at 250w.

in the first case, a 5,000 watt motor could be made legal by limiting the speed and power so that in normal operation, you used 250 watts. It might occasionally hit 5000 watts up a hill, but not on average.
in the second case, you could use current limiting to hold the max wattage to 250, making the 5000w motor a lot of dead weight, but legal.

I believe in respecting laws, I respect them in spirit. I have an "on-road" mode on a switch that limits my 20,000 watt monster bike to the local legal 750w, 20mph limit. I also added a park mode that limits my speed to 12mph in parks. The police know about this, and really like the idea
---

Now to try and find a kit on aliexpress.. :p
 

vfr400

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jun 12, 2011
8,706
3,458
Basildon
"250w is a power rating. So saying you want the most powerful 250 watt motor is like saying you want the heaviest 10 pound weight. "

I don't agree with that at all. Some 250w rated motors are very powerful indeed, others are completely useless. The 250w rating is just a label on the motor for legal purposes. It has nothing to do with how much power the motor can handle or give. There are examples of identical motors having 1000w written on one and 250w on another. It's the same with Bosch motors. The 250w one and 350w are identical. The only difference is that one has a speed limit in the software of 15mph and the other 28mph.

The analagy above would have been better if they said that you want the biggest 10lb weight, because 10lb weights come in different sizes, just like 250w motors come with different power capabilities.

The power you get in an ebike isn't determined by the motor. The different motors only have a small effect. Instead, the power is determined by the controller. The maths is fairly simple. If you double the amps from the controller, you get double the power at the wheel as long as the motor can handle it and the battery provide it.
 
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nelf

Finding my (electric) wheels
Apr 2, 2021
18
0
Northumberland
"250w is a power rating. So saying you want the most powerful 250 watt motor is like saying you want the heaviest 10 pound weight. "

I don't agree with that at all. Some 250w rated motors are very powerful indeed, others are completely useless. The 250w rating is just a label on the motor for legal purposes. It has nothing to do with how much power the motor can handle or give. There are examples of identical motors having 1000w written on one and 250w on another. It's the same with Bosch motors. The 250w one and 350w are identical. The only difference is that one has a speed limit in the software of 15mph and the other 28mph.

The analagy above would have been better if they said that you want the biggest 10lb weight, because 10lb weights come in different sizes, just like 250w motors come with different power capabilities.

The power you get in an ebike isn't determined by the motor. The different motors only have a small effect. Instead, the power is determined by the controller. The maths is fairly simple. If you double the amps from the controller, you get double the power at the wheel as long as the motor can handle it and the battery provide it.
The more I read into ebikes, the more confused I get. :D

What do you think of this kit? https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32938300991.html