warranties

[stevieb]

just wondering what peoples opinions are on warranties for e-bikes
some manufacturers only offer 1 year on everything whilst others offer 2 years on the battery and considerably longer on frames etc.
is this a reflection of the quality of the bike?

 

[jonathan75]

I think it's more about the margins and marketing philosophy and overall confidence of the retailer, but if someone with actual knowledge of the bikes says it's about the bikes I defer to that. Always pay by credit card because your cc provider is jointly liable with the retailer for goods over £100 being reasonably durable for the required period under SOGA.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

No. It's a reflection of what their competitors are doing. Warranty is a bit of a lottery as far as I can see. Some brands have good reputations for sorting out problems under warranty, others not so good. If you're unable to fix things yourself, you need to buy your bike from somebody nearby, except some of the online retailers that will pay for the bike to be collected. I believe Ebikes Direct and Woosh do that. If anybody else does, can we add them to the list?

The longer the warranty on the battery, the better, but you have to bear in mind the price of the bike. Most batteries can be replaced/upgraded for £250 or less, except for Bosch, Kalkhoff and other expensive bikes.

 

[stevieb]

thanks for the advice
i didn,t know about the credit card thing,
i will also check out the replacement cost of batteries

 

[Cyclezee]

As far as I am aware Ansmann bikes have the longest warranty, 3 years battery, 4 years motor and 5 years on the frame.

If anyone has a longer one no doubt I will be corrected

You can see the range of Ansmann bikes on our website here http://www.cyclezee.com/ansmann-e-bikes--pedelecs.html

 

[SteveRuss]

thanks for the advice
i didn,t know about the credit card thing,
i will also check out the replacement cost of batteries

Straight from the dealers, some batteries are hideously expensive. My 17ah battery on my Kalkhoff is listed at £799 ( ). It has a two year warranty.

I have noticed an 11ah replacement on the German eBay site for 339 euros which is £250 at todays exchange rate. How the quality compares I don't know but there's a chance there is nothing wrong with them at all.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

You can get cheaper Chinese replacement batteries for virtually any bike unless your bike uses CANbus or some other communication protocol to interrogate the battery.

 

[SteveRuss]

You can get cheaper Chinese replacement batteries for virtually any bike unless your bike uses CANbus or some other communication protocol to interrogate the battery.

Is CANbus used in many manufacturers, or just the odd one or two? I've never heard of it!

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Bionx, new Bosch, new A2B and bikes with Tranzx systems. There'll be others too, but I can't think at the moment.

 

[jonathan75]

thanks for the advice
i didn,t know about the credit card thing,
i will also check out the replacement cost of batteries

No prob. When I wrote 'the required period', I meant the time for which goods must be reasonably durable, which is up to six years under the Sale of Goods Act 1979. The 'up to' bit basically means 'how long it ought to last given the cost and any other relevant factors'. The length of the warranty isn't a relevant factor. The more powerful 'warranty' is the protection you get from the Sale of Goods Act,which forms the basis of your contract with the retailer (and your cc provider too, who also have to cough up if things go wrong).

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

You'll get far more support and help and a lot longer "warranty"and support from any retailer if you go in armed with donoughts and never mention the sale of goods act. There is nothing likely to get you less support from a retailer than quoting the law at them. They know what the law is

 

[jonathan75]

You'll get far more support and help and a lot longer "warranty"and support from any retailer if you go in armed with donoughts and never mention the sale of goods act. There is nothing likely to get you less support from a retailer than quoting the law at them. They know what the law is

Oh I absolutely agree. The problem is that consumers don't know what the law is. Most of them think when the warranty runs out that's their lot.

As a consumer you must, but simply must be kind-mannered, polite, generous-spirited, and carry a very big stick, the latter being simply your knowledge of what the retailer has contractually agreed to, none of which you should share unless the retailer tells you you're out of warranty and they can't help you - which is what most - or many retailers will do. Using the fiction that a "warranty" is the extent of liability, is a standard business model in retail. In fact creating that misimpression is the only serious purpose 95% of 'warranties' serve.

 

[stevieb]

so would i be correct in saying that a bike with only a years warranty need not be a reason to stay clear of it?
the reputation of the dealer and product playing a major part along with cost of spares if you end up forking out for your own.
obvoiusly the ansmann as quoted above should be easier to live with if problems crop up.

 

[trex]

that's correct. As jonathan75 has pointed out, you have right to have the problem sorted out free of charge many years after the guarantee has run out.There is a limitation to this though, the fault must be a manufacturing fault, like in car safety recalls.

 

[Electrifying Cycles]

No. It's a reflection of what their competitors are doing. Warranty is a bit of a lottery as far as I can see. Some brands have good reputations for sorting out problems under warranty, others not so good. If you're unable to fix things yourself, you need to buy your bike from somebody nearby, except some of the online retailers that will pay for the bike to be collected. I believe Ebikes Direct and Woosh do that. If anybody else does, can we add them to the list?

The longer the warranty on the battery, the better, but you have to bear in mind the price of the bike. Most batteries can be replaced/upgraded for £250 or less, except for Bosch, Kalkhoff and other expensive bikes.

We also offer the service of collecting the bike if the issue cannot be solved remotely.

Thanks,
David

 

[jonathan75]

so would i be correct in saying that a bike with only a years warranty need not be a reason to stay clear of it?
the reputation of the dealer and product playing a major part along with cost of spares if you end up forking out for your own.
obvoiusly the ansmann as quoted above should be easier to live with if problems crop up.

Yes spot on re your first sentence. A 1 year warranty is no reason to avoid a retailer.

The retailer's core obligations to you normally last much longer than the warranty. Although that always depends on what's reasonable given the cost and all other factors, so a battery can't be expected to last as long as the rest of the bike, for example. And if you paid very little, for example, then that impacts on the product lifetime you can reasonably expect. But always buy by credit card, so you can claim off the cc provider, in case the company goes into liquidation or refuses to help when they are obliged to.

 

[jonathan75]

that's correct. As jonathan75 has pointed out, you have right to have the problem sorted out free of charge many years after the guarantee has run out.There is a limitation to this though, the fault must be a manufacturing fault, like in car safety recalls.

Now the first sentence is pretty much correct (but subject to reasonableness which turns on cost of purchase and any/all relevant factors), and for a maximum of six years, which would be for a high- or mid-end bike.

I'm afraid the second sentence isn't correct. There is no restriction on the kind of fault. The item must simply be reasonably durable and fit for purpose. Remember that the manufacturer is out of the picture (except for any warranty promises they've made, and their self-interested desire not to get sued for injuring people with unsafe goods like you say, and any plain bodges in manufacturing they choose to sort, but these are all relatively unimportant in most consumers' actual purchases, and the latter isn't enforceable against the manufacturer usually). The big promise which affects you and which you've paid for, and which is likely to come up as an issue with lots of things you buy, is the one by the retailer who's promised to see you right, with whom you have the contract for durable and fit-for-purpose goods for up to six years max. AND actually the credit card provider, who has to step in and see you right if all else fails.

 

[trex]

I disagree with you there Jon. This is a misunderstanding of the law. The statutory rights protect the customers from hidden manufacturing problems, that they can't see during normal use, until the thing breaks. It does not protect the customers against wear and tear. Take a halogen light bulb. You expect 2000 hours of use on average. Do you get new bulbs for the ones that blew before 2000 hours? no, not after a few years. That is because the 2000 hours is an average. If the light bulb lasts more than a year, it is deemed not to have manufacturing defects unless the same batch all die at about the same time.
The same logic applies for cars, your engine may last 20 years or may not. You only get so many years guaranteed service.

 

[jonathan75]

I disagree with you there Jon. This is a misunderstanding of the law. The statutory rights protect the customers from hidden manufacturing problems, that they can't see during normal use, until the thing breaks. It does not protect the customers against wear and tear. Take a halogen light bulb. You expect 2000 hours of use on average. Do you get new bulbs for the ones that blew before 2000 hours? no, not after a few years. That is because the 2000 hours is an average. If the light bulb lasts more than a year, it is deemed not to have manufacturing defects unless the same batch all die at about the same time.

The same logic applies for cars, your engine may last 20 years or may not. You only get so many years guaranteed service.

Thanks for your reply, I don’t really understand what you mean by statutory rights protecting customers against invisible faults until the thing breaks. As for wear and tear, that’s a very interesting grey area and I don’t really understand what you mean there either. Same with the lightbulbs example, I don’t get it. Same with your car example. There’s a lot of common sense in what you’re saying, some of which is in effect unwritten law which we’d all recognised as fair (i.e. fair wear and tear of certain consumable parts and not others, and abuse of the goods all being excluded from a s 14 SOGA 1979 contractual requirement for goods to be reasonably durable). I should come clean - I'm a full-time law student, and have a particular and longstanding interest in consumer law. But I still defer to common sense when I think it's right. I think some of yours is and some isn't. But as I don't get what you're saying I can't really say for sure. Sorry. I could just give you chapter and verse but would prefer to hear what you think.

 

[trex]

this document sums up pretty well the points I tried to make.
www.parliament.uk/briefing-papers/sn02239.pdf

The law states that a consumer can approach a retailer with a claim about a good they have purchased for up to six years from the date of sale (or five years after the discovery of the problem in Scotland). This does not mean that every good sold has to last six years; it is simply the legal cut off point for bringing a contractual claim. A consumer cannot hold a retailer responsible for fair ‘wear and tear’.

what is fair is for the Court to decide on a case by case basis.
SGA does not give the consumer 6 years guarantee, only the right to redress for hidden faults that could not be seen on inspection. Otherwise all the extended warranty sellers are going to be sued for misselling.
E-bikes require maintenance. A bike that is not maintained regularly or parked in the rain or used for commuting will wear out more quickly than one that is kept indoors, well greased and ridden only 10 miles a week.
My view is that the guarantee period is a kind of self assessment of what the seller expects as the length of trouble free service with minimal maintenance. What would be useful to consumers is some estimates from the suppliers on items that do not require maintenance like 'our battery will do 700 charges' or 'our motor will do 10,000 miles between service' or 'our frame is guaranteed for life' so that you can simply ask for redress if these promises are not kept. The cost to the sellers is minimal, the value to their customers is peace of mind.