Why is so much illegal 'commuting' not policed ?

guerney

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Sep 7, 2021
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i give the ram rovers about as much room as they give me 2.5mm :p
Buy one of these from me for £3,000,000 (inflation's a bitch and sales have slowed). Or you can make your own cheap and nasty version using balls of snot and dandruff - those ram rovers will give allow you 33.999cm+ at least 2.5mm. If not, you may be eligible for a highly unpalatable, unacceptably extremely tiny and impossible to obtain partial refund* (*terms apply).

54021

 
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soundwave

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 23, 2015
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problem is i like racing the cars i under take over take and even bang on there windows if i can catch them my handle bars are stronger than there wing mirrors ;)
 

FastFreddy2

Pedelecer
Apr 19, 2023
186
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There are too many people committing too many crimes, most of which are a lot more serious than traffic offences, and not enough police.
Simples.
In my experience, this is going to be the case, nothing else.

40 years ago, CB radios (an American import) was quite the rage amongst us (then young) folk. Some had home equipment, but the great bulk of my social group, had radios in the their cars. These systems were completely illegal, and were pretty obvious to spot if installed in a car. 5ft whip aerials weren't necessary for in-car radios back then, it was something of a CB giveaway. I don't remember a single person being pulled over, much less prosecuted. It was so endemic, laws were changed to allow FM banded radios, while AM banded remained banned. (AM bands tend to wander.) We either grew out of chatting all night, or being 'legal' meant it lost our interest.

E-scooters are a marvelous tool. Relatively cheap personal transport, clean (in theory pollution free) and children don't have to leave them locked up in a bike shed at school, where they can be stolen or damaged. No pressure to use them on roads either. Of course like any technology, mechanical or electric, there are people among us who want to push boundaries. Almost 3 weeks ago, I saw two e-scooters roaring up a hill on the road that has a 30mph speed limit, and they must have been doing 40mph. (No helmets or body protection, prospective Darwin award winners.) I see motor cars doing the same thing on the same road. Motorbikes doing the same, and more frequently. I also see a couple of delivery bicycles fairly regularly on the same road. One at least has dual hub motors and a battery I might struggle to lift. I reported recently, I'd seen one of these fellas moving along without pedalling.....

These three examples, are what are often described as "victimless" crimes. Well, as long as the e-scooters and e-bikes don't create, or are involved in accidents.

The police are a finite resource. AM banded CB radios are still banned, E-scooters are banned anywhere public. Over-powered e-bikes, also banned anywhere public. We certainly don't need further legislation on the "banning" front. When the finite resource is so stretched it doesn't always respond to shoplifting, (seldom responds it seems) and it generally only provides crime numbers for car theft and burglary all of which are crimes with victims, do we really want to move that limited resource away from crimes with victims, to victimless crimes? Shoplifting means your food bill is likely 5% higher than it should be. Same with many retail situations. Who loses out when a child uses an e-scooter to get home quickly from school (and maybe saves their parent/guardian making a car journey to collect them)?

The British government makes mistakes - all the time. One of the biggest, has been to try and cripple the use of cheap e-transport systems. I believe the reasons for this go back further than Trump or Biden. I think these bad decisions go back to 1835, when bicycles (penny farthings) were banned from footways. "Bicycles" of a style we no longer use, were forced onto largely unmade roadways (in the day), some 60 years before Mr Benz produced what we know today as the motor car. That law has never been repealed, although it is (thankfully), largely ignored. If the 'letter of the law' were obeyed, instead of 12 and 13 year olds riding their e-scooters on pavements when getting to or leaving school, they would have to ride their bicycles on the A6129 local main road which has a 40mph speed restriction. It's a single lane each way road, that delivery artics regularly use. What mindset, would have children riding bicycles on main roads with 20-40 tons of articulated lorry passing them at anything up to 40mph and within inches of them?

The mainstream introduction of electric vehicles was always going to take profits away from hydrocarbon powered car manufacturers, take huge revenues away from petrochemical companies, and from the government in the form of taxes. Despite the much lauded environmental benefits of "e" power, the government, any UK government, has done nothing to encourage "e" powered vehicles whatever their form. New e-vehicles, which tend to be fairly expensive, now have additional tax applied on purchase. While they make no visible pollution, they no longer enjoy (or will no longer enjoy) zero rated road/vehicle tax either.

Petrol or diesel free personal transport, provides no ongoing tax revenues for the government, other than on the price of electricity, which is a measly 5%. At the moment, some 62p of the £1-50 per litre you pay at the pump for your fuel, is tax. Where is the motivation for the Treasury to encourage the use of e-vehicles?

Luckily, the resources needed to enforce the petrochemical company demands, are just not available. The government needs for tax collection, are not yet so important they are willing to provide additional money for that enforcement. (Long may that continue.) Restrictions on the use of e-vehicles, should not force us into using petrol/diesel engined vehicles if we choose to use alternatives.

I'm not supporting e-scooters that go faster than (say) 8mph, which I think is fast enough. Nor am I supporting over-powered e-bikes. But I don't think our roads are the right places for scooters or bicycles. Especially not for young people. Nor do I think the respective laws on these should be enforced in any way. Not until "reckless" behaviour is seen anyway.

(Likely unpopular rant, over.)
 
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FastFreddy2

Pedelecer
Apr 19, 2023
186
87
I don't know how to drive at 20mph. 20mph limit is insane.
Bikes and cars shouldn't use same roads really. It is so much better for drivers and for cyclists when there are dedicated cycle paths.
100% agree. My diesel car really doesn't like 20mph. I had some experience of driving a small petrol engined car in June, weaving through the streets of London. Was not much easier, and very fuel inefficient. With stopping for lights at roads junctions, I managed 9 miles in 40 minutes. That's less than a 14mph average.
 

soundwave

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 23, 2015
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100% agree. My diesel car really doesn't like 20mph. I had some experience of driving a small petrol engined car in June, weaving through the streets of London. Was not much easier, and very fuel inefficient. With stopping for lights at roads junctions, I managed 9 miles in 40 minutes. That's less than a 14mph average.

will have to pay the cloud tax in london tho. but if there was that much pollution then we wont get any sun anyway lmfao.
 

soundwave

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 23, 2015
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:p
 

Scorpio

Esteemed Pedelecer
Apr 13, 2020
368
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Portugal Algarve (temporary)
A friend of mine was recently fined and given points for 33 in a 30 limit, here in Wales (Ceredigion). <removed> Personally I think they're desperate for extra funds to misappropriate and don't have tax raising powers.
Hi .I'm not doubting what you were told but could you ask for a photo and upload it?

A few years ago a motoring forum I use asked if anyone could send them a photo of a "33 mph in a 30 zone" ticket. Lots of people knew "friends of friends" who had got tickets for 31, 32, 33mph but I don't think they ever traced any of the reports back to actually see the proof. They were asking if a ticket for anything less than 34 mph in a 30 zone was an urban myth.

Things change and the situation now might be different, my understanding was ACPO guidelines (ie not law so can can be ignored when issuing tickets) were "speed limit + 10% + 2mph" so in a 30 limit under 35mph won't shouldn't get a ticket.

@flecc do you have a link for the Dft "definitive ruling" as I search but can't find it. I can found lots of conflicting info - some from what look like credible sources - that confuse things rather than settle what is legal and allowed, and what will get me a ticket.
:oops:
 
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flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,098
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@flecc do you have a link for the Dft "definitive ruling" as I search but can't find it.
There isn't a link, which I can well understand. They are hardly likely to publicise loopholes. The information has always been given by the DfT in letters of reply, but they have legal force since the DfT are the legal authority.

The last such reply was their confirming that the 10% tolerance applied to all speed limits, including the 15.5 mph pedelec assist limit, the subject of the enquirer's letter.
.
 
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Wayners

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jun 5, 2023
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Gloucester
I was told and the wife ( not saying where pleading the 5th amendment) years apart on course that the speed limits are the maximum not a target
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,098
30,536
I was told and the wife ( not saying where pleading the 5th amendment) years apart on course that the speed limits are the maximum not a target
Nice idea, but not strictly true.

"Although there is no minimum speed limit on the majority of UK roads, you can still be fined for driving too slow if it is seen that you are a hazard to other road users. There is no specific penalty for driving too slowly and as such, penalties may be as little as a verbal warning by a police officer along with a lecture of the dangers of driving too slow and in more serious cases, a motorist may find themselves in court charged with driving without due care and attention or without reasonable consideration for other road users (penalty code CD30). The more serious penalty CD30 comes with penalty points on a motorists licence, anywhere from 3 to 9 along with a fine. Penalty points stay on a motorists licence for four years from the date of the offence and are likely to seriously impact the cost of car insurance."

Where are minimum speed limit signs located

Minimum speed limits are put in force to keep traffic moving at a speed that is consistent and smooth. Vehicles that are constantly accelerating and braking are at higher risk of collision. Where minimum speed limits are mandatory are locations that emergency services might struggle to gain access such as tunnels.

 
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StuartsProjects

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May 9, 2021
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Things change and the situation now might be different, my understanding was ACPO guidelines (ie not law so can can be ignored when issuing tickets) were "speed limit + 10% + 2mph" so in a 30 limit under 35mph won't shouldn't get a ticket.
Information from the RAC website;

54040
 

Benjahmin

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 10, 2014
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I have myself received a speed awareness course for 34 in a 30 limit (about 3 years ago). The friend I referred to decided to take the points rather than a course as she couldn't be arsed with another course. This was within the last 3 months.
Welsh authorities have already stated that they will be vigorously applying the new 20 limits.
Yes folks, rural life is about to get a whole lot slower - well so they think. The reality is that all the locals know where the mobile camera's park and when one appears word quickly gets around. Occaisionally an unmarked police car will be seen, but I suspect they are visitors. The few others around are kept busy it seems. So we'll have to see how the policing of these new limits goes. But there does seem to be a zero tolerance intention.
As previously stated, I think they need the funds.
 

soundwave

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 23, 2015
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why dont i get fined or chased fkn takes the pi$$ i mostly ride off road on the pavement :D
 

PC2017

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 19, 2017
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Scunthorpe
Isn't some speed monitoring done by local councils now a days, I see "highways" marked cars and non-police with speed guns also speed camera vans. I hear that once pulled over for 1-4 mph over, it normally rests on driver attitude. Correct me if I am wrong.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,098
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Isn't some speed monitoring done by local councils now a days, I see "highways" marked cars and non-police with speed guns also speed camera vans.
And groups of private citizens with police approval. Some small villages suffer drivers not slowing from the usual 60 as they pass through creating a dangerous hazard. So the police are happy for them to do monitoring which acts as a deterrent when drivers see them with the radar guns.

Normally no prosecutions of course but it's been reported the police do get heavy with cases of exceptional speeds reported with registration number.
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guerney

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 7, 2021
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The two mile hill I live on is a magnet for every speed freak for miles - Lambos, Ferraris, weird and noisy turbocharged bangers which bang, superbikes, Sur-ron ron rons, enthusiastic legal cyclists like me, unbelievably heavy lorries which cause mini earthquakes as they hammer into it's many deep poholes at high speed. After speed monitoring vans were deployed, the council were shocked at how fast the traffic is, the locals weren't. I still have the lens of a Mercedes headlight which dented my wooden front door, after it crashed at an intersection on this hill road about 30 yards away, and my front door is about fourty feet away from the pavement! I'm amazed the driver survived after colliding with one of those speed freakoids fancying his chances at beating the lights at the bottom of the hill, then crashing through a brick wall. A friend's Range Rover was hit the same way a few months ago, about a third of a mile further down - total write off and his passenger's ribs were broken. The council have done nothing after their data collection exercises, maybe they're about to go bankrupt. I expect speed cameras would more than pay for themselves within a few hours one weekend evening.

What the hell is the point of buying fast vehicles just to save a few seconds and beat everyone else to the next set of traffic lights or jam?
 
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flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,098
30,536
The two mile hill I live on is a magnet for every speed freak for miles - Lambos, Ferraris, weird and noisy turbocharged bangers which bang, superbikes, Sur-ron ron rons, enthusiastic legal cyclists like me, unbelievably heavy lorries which cause mini earthquakes as they hammer into it's many deep poholes at high speed. After speed monitoring vans were deployed, the council were shocked at how fast the traffic is, the locals weren't. I still have the lens of a Mercedes headlight which dented my wooden front door, after it crashed at an intersection on this hill road about 30 yards away, and my front door is about fourty feet away from the pavement! I'm amazed the driver survived after colliding with one of those speed freakoids fancying his chances at beating the lights at the bottom of the hill, then crashing through a brick wall. A friend's Range Rover was hit the same way a few months ago, about a third of a mile further down - total write off and his passenger's ribs were broken. The council have done nothing after their data collection exercises, maybe they're about to go bankrupt. I expect speed cameras would more than pay for themselves within a few hours one weekend evening.

What the hell is the point of buying fast vehicles just to save a few seconds and beat everyone else to the next set of traffic lights or jam?
The problem you suffer is a severe lack of traffic, enabling the traffic you have to be a major nuisance in so many ways.

Where I live and mostly drive I don't have that problem, since the relatively affluent high density population have filled the roads so completely that only polite and helpful cooperation together with strong regulation keeps everything moving sufficiently and safely.

This has always been the case everywhere in Britain. For example:

In 1960 Britain had just under 5 million cars on the roads and the traffic, mostly cars, killed 6970 people.

In 2022 Britain had over 32 million cars on the roads but the traffic only killed 1695 people.

One 26th of the deaths pro rata to the number of cars.

This clearly illustrates that the answer to traffic problems is either no traffic, which is impossible of course, or so much traffic that being a dangerous nuisance becomes difficult to impossible.

So what your area needs is this combination:

A 20 mph speed limit on all urban roads other than through roads limited to 30mph.

The 30 limit maintained on all roads less than one mile long between urban zones, making 30 mph a norm to drive to.

Penalty speed cameras on all 30 mph roads with potentials for occasional higher speeds to be reached.

More junctions, traffic lights, pedestrian crossings to help keep overall speeds down.

Closing enough road space to motor traffic to increase the traffic density until it slows sufficiently overall.
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StuartsProjects

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 9, 2021
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Isn't some speed monitoring done by local councils now a days, I see "highways" marked cars and non-police with speed guns also speed camera vans.
And some community groups too.

There was an issue with people driving too fast through the village of Ambridge in the Midlands, documented on the radio in the Archers;

https://ambridgeobserver.blogspot.com/2017/05/an-accident-break-up-and-uneaten-pizza.html

"Brian Aldridge, his wife Jennifer, daughter Kate and sister-in-law Lilian have all volunteered to join the Speedwatch team that will monitor the appalling level of dangerous driving that is currently afflicting the village."
 
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