Woosh or Raleigh?

Jonah · Mar 15, 2020

steve2k said:
So I'm torn between the Whoosh Camino and the Raleigh Motus and looking for opinions or alternatives.

I'm 110kg, 5'8 and I'm looking for a bike to commute on so it needs to be able to carry me and probably 10kg of luggage.

My budget is £1500.

My route to work is either 8 miles of rolling tarmac hills or 4 miles of tarmac hills followed by 2 miles of hilly forest track.

So I think the Whoosh big bear is out as I worry about the front hub motor on the forest track (gravel, mud, tree roots).

The Whoosh camino has a rear hub, the Raleigh has a crank drive. I think I prefer the idea of crank drive (I have the impression it's better for a fat bloke on a hill), but Whoosh have been great at answering questions and offering advice.

I can't test drive the woosh as I cant get to the store. I could probably text the Raleigh but I have nothing to compare it to.

In all honesty I'm sure either of them will be fine but as I don't really know what I'm doing I thought I'd ask for opinions.

Feel free to chip in.

I think I might be inclined to go for mid motor. Cube are keenest price generally. Alternative might be to get a Woosh mid motor kit fitted to a bike of your choosing.

Woosh · Mar 15, 2020

I would have recommended the Woosh Rambla but they are out of stock now, next delivery is in May.
You can convert your bike with the Bafang BBS01B kit or the Tongsheng TSDZ2 kit but the centre of gravity of the converted bike is invariably in front of the bottom bracket.
The gyro effect cause by the motor + battery weight is the same with any weight that moves in and out of the direction of travel.
In a purpose built bike like the Rambla, the centre of gravity of the bke is much closer to the bottom bracket, making the bike feels much more like a normal bike.
The only reason that I didn't introduce the Rambla any sooner is that I thought we wouldn't be competitive enough in the £1,300-£1,400 price band.
I am now much more convinced that we can compete in this price band, so I will make more Bosch style crank drive bikes later this year.

RobF · Mar 15, 2020

The woosh bike represents good value, but a Motus is the better quality bike.

As it should be for the extra money.

Leaving aside quality, reliability is also likely to be superior.

Rear hub bikes tend to break spokes, particularly if the wheel is a cheap Chinese one which may not have the best components or may not have been skilfully built.

You are also planning to carry 10kg, which is a fair amount of dead weight over the rear wheel.

Given that a Motus is available for under £1,300, it is the one to go for.

The decision might not be quite so clear cut on a 2020 Motus at £2,000 or more.

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Woosh · Mar 15, 2020

wheels are machine built the world over, I don't think there is much difference there. The fork is the same Suntour NEX, used on a lot of e-bikes. The cheap Motus has 7-speed Altus derailleur, not a high end one. Both have hydraulic brakes.
The Motus comes with a 300WH battery, the Woosh Camino comes with 540WH battery or 612WH battery.

Deleted member 25121 · Mar 15, 2020

I see that you've just joined us steve2k, welcome.

Woosh has a terrific reputation on here for their products, service and advice, I suggest you do some searches on here for "Woosh" and "Motus" to get a reasonable assessment of their capabilities.

Also, Woosh has a lot of experience of supplying bikes to those of a more "traditional" build.

I've no connection whatsoever with Woosh and am basing these views purely on what I've read on this forum.

sjpt · Mar 15, 2020

We have a Motus (older 2nd hand) that has been fine but with some niggles. I don't think the quality and reliability are much better than the Camino; and if we do need to do any fixing to motor or battery will be a lot more expensive. We went for the Motus because we wanted hub gears which really limits choice.

If it wasn't for that I think we'd go for Camino now; and if not Camino Cube mentioned above.

Emanresu · Mar 15, 2020

Just to confuse you even more, have a look at the Decathlon Rockrider EST900 - mainly for the Brose motor with 90n torque and 500W battery.

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Downside though is that they are difficult to get a hold of - but that may be because it's a good spec for the money.

I'm bigger and heavier than you and have ridden the unpowered RR into the ground. You have to be pretty determined before you can break them. And if you do there is usually a Decathlon store close by.

Nealh · Mar 16, 2020

RobF said:
The woosh bike represents good value, but a Motus is the better quality bike.

As it should be for the extra money.

Leaving aside quality, reliability is also likely to be superior.

Rear hub bikes tend to break spokes, particularly if the wheel is a cheap Chinese one which may not have the best components or may not have been skilfully built.

You are also planning to carry 10kg, which is a fair amount of dead weight over the rear wheel.

Given that a Motus is available for under £1,300, it is the one to go for.

The decision might not be quite so clear cut on a 2020 Motus at £2,000 or more.

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I must be doing something wrong then as I can't seem to break spokes on my Bafanf cst or Aikema 128c hubs.

Deleted member 25121 · Mar 16, 2020

Nealh said:
I must be doing something wrong then as I can't seem to brake spokes on my Bafanf cst or Aikema 128c hubs.

I can't make it out either, if it's a question of torque transmitted through the spokes then it's going to be approximately the same irrespective of whether it's a hub or crank motor.

Nealh · Mar 16, 2020

None of my wheel builds are oem and are all done by my hands in a diy/self built wooden trueing jig.

RobF · Mar 16, 2020

Many machine built wheels are perfectly reliable - most of will have had several.

A wheel built by someone who knows what they are doing will be superior, but such people are thin on the ground.

If you get a spoke breaker it will drive you nuts because there tends to be a domino effect, so you quickly reach the point where you cannot trust the bike.

Annoying for a leisure rider, but hopeless for a commuter where reliability is paramount.

Overall torque being the same is a fair point, but there's no doubt you routinely hear of rear hub motors breaking spokes and rarely hear of crank motors breaking spokes.

That plays into overall quality.

Bosch/Yamaha/Shimano Steps/Brose bikes are generally much better quality than hub bikes, which are nearly all cheap Chinese.

Not so long ago, crank bikes were often twice the price of hub bikes, roughly a thousand pounds against two thousand pounds.

Hub bikes are now routinely £1,100 or £1,200, but crank bikes can now routinely be had for about £1,500, sometimes less.

As I said, a £1,300 Motus against an £1,100 woosh is no contest.

A £2,000 Motus against the woosh is a harder decision.

Those are all general points, but add in the OP's circumstances and the decision for him is clearer.

At 110kg he's no lightweight, and he wants to carry 10kg of dead weight over the rear wheel.

That all points squarely to a crank drive.

If it has to be woosh or another hub bike, a Big Bear would suit.

Front wheel spin out on front motor bikes is an over exaggerated problem, and so what if the wheel does 'jump' occasionally?

The more even weight distribution would be a worthwhile benefit in this case.

sjpt · Mar 16, 2020

RobF said:
Overall torque being the same is a fair point, but there's no doubt you routinely hear of rear hub motors breaking spokes and rarely hear of crank motors breaking spokes.

That plays into overall quality.

Exactly. There is probably (sorry no proof) a very big correlation between price of bike, quality of wheel, and spoke breakage. Also as RofF points out, a (reducing) correlation between price and motor type.

I very much suspect (again no proof) that if you compensate for the price/quality correlation you will find no (or very little) correlation between motor type and and spoke breakage.

Also, if you look at price (x-axis)/quality(y-axis) correlation that Bosch driven bikes will fall below the norm curve, and give less quality for the same price. Even more so if you look at the TCO/correlation.

RobF · Mar 16, 2020

sjpt said:
Also as RofF points out, a (reducing) correlation between price and motor type.

I didn't realise I had pointed that out - I probably did do so but lack your grasp of statistics.

One thing I don't do is play favourites on here, I just call it as I see it.

The guys - and gal - at woosh are sound people, but I cannot recommend their bikes if I think there are better alternatives.

No secret that I like David Miall at Wisper, he's another sound guy and very fair in his business dealings.

But I see his standard hybrid starts at £1,700, albeit there is a cheaper non torque sensor version.

Paying more for a Chinese component hub bike compared to a European brand crank bike makes absolutely no sense.

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Deleted member 25121 · Mar 16, 2020

RobF said:
At 110kg he's no lightweight, and he wants to carry 10kg of dead weight over the rear wheel.

That all points squarely to a crank drive.

Why does that point to a crank motor I wonder, both crank motors and rear hub motors both drive the rear wheel?

RobF · Mar 16, 2020

Because extra weight is extra stress on a wheel already weakened by having a motor built into it, or more accurately, a wheel using low grade components with suspect build quality.

There's a reason why every cargo bike I can think of has a crank motor and wheels from a recognised quality brand.

Deleted member 25121 · Mar 16, 2020

RobF said:
Because extra weight is extra stress on a wheel already weakened by having a motor built into it, or more accurately, a wheel using low grade components with suspect build quality.

There's a reason why every cargo bike I can think of has a crank motor and wheels from a recognised quality brand.

A larger hub, as seen in hub motored ebikes, makes for a stronger wheel assuming the same quality of spokes are used.

Hub motored ebikes don't have to use low quality spokes.

Cargo bikes probably use crank motors because they give more torque at the driven wheel at low speeds, there were many posts about this last week.

RobF · Mar 16, 2020

My Rose ebike had Mavic rims, DT Swiss spokes, and Shimano hubs, built by a company recognised for the quality of its wheel building.

Which would you prefer, that or a Power Circle, an unrecognised brand built with unknown expertise?

At least woosh carry plenty of spare spokes, as do Rose, but I suspect the difference is Rose rarely supply any.

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