Mr. B Ikeman

Yeah, if water got in through the cable that'd make sense. It never exited downwards and the bike ended up in a river (I didn't cycle off a riverbank, instead the river decided it'd move along the cycle path, so I was about 3-4 inches deep in water) also over the summer/early autumn I was out fishing pretty often and used the bike to get there and back, with a PVC pipe rod holder on the motor cable in side of the bike. When there wasn't something to chain the bike to, or lean it up against, it would have been sitting on it's side, rod holder and cable up, towards the sky/rain. Of course, because I got it second hand, there's nothing to say the previous owner didn't hose it down with a pressure washer before I got it. Honestly I'd not be surprised if he did given that the battery was held on by a single screw and the spacers on back wheel were on the outside. Having used an ebike for a while (which has got me outdoors a whole lot more, lost a good bit; about 10kg, maybe more, of weight too) the legality part of the motor really isn't a concern given the vast number of e-scooters, electric motorcycles and dirt/pitbikes moving along cycle paths now, or just people driving (petrol, road) scooters on the pavement. I used to ride dirtbikes when I was a teenager, often in places where, on paper, I shouldn't, but always far away from places people brought their kids out for a walk. Seems that has changed, as has the enforcement of it. Makes me think if that isn't being enforced, cops aren't going to pay too much attention to a hub motor driven ebike off main roads and on cycle paths after 8pm at night, hopefully. I did see a great mid drive (legal) ebike for sale and at a decent price too, 1kw peak IIRC, though the frame was carbon and carbon fibre can look fine and then shatter into a million pieces due to an invisible (or near invisible) crack and being mid drive, if the frame did shatter, well I'd be down about £1.2k and not really have any simple options to rebuild. Though anyway, new motor core from a donor motor sounds like the best plan, as well as waterproofing it properly this time. I'm guessing that you're right that the motor may be salvageable, though a new donor motor leaves me with some spare parts should something else go wrong.

[mention=18796]Sturmey[/mention] Yep, that'll be the pieces of assorted shrapnel that I'd plucked off the magnets. Didn't know it was a caged bearing. [mention=3847]saneagle[/mention] Removed all of the pieces of the bearing cage and tried running the motor again, still error 24, didn't even get it to move this time, last night it made about 1/20th of a turn. As you can see in the pic, some of the bits of bearing cage have cut through the enamel on the coil windings and are touching the board. So I'm guessing a either they touched, or a bearing ball rolling around in there touched that and sent about 36V to somewhere 36V shouldn't be. Also, the laminated cores for each coil have been bent out of shape. Seems like a wiser (and less time consuming, both in labour and waiting for parts) plan to just drop a new motor into the hub. Even if a new PCB got the motor running again, the scraped off enamel and bent iron isn't going to be a long-term solution. Though on the topic of bearings, would it be worth my time replacing the bearings these come with with better ones? Guess I might need a bearing puller (or just use liquid butane, outdoors to cool the bearing enough to tap it out, then freeze the new ones and heat the hub so they fit. Or are the stock bearings usually good enough.

This post goes on for quite a while, dashes are used to break up replies and also the most recent post. [mention=18796]Sturmey[/mention] Thanks, wasn't sure if that was the specific part for the PCB, or for the entire motor. The housing is stamped AKM 350, so I'd assumed it's an AKM 350. ---------------- [mention=3847]saneagle[/mention] I'd always thought shorting the signal to VCC on a hall would lead to an overcurrent or overvoltage issue, cooking the sensor as a hall sensor package usually contains op-amps and other components. Of course, loose bearing balls inside a motor will also do a lot more damage (as you can kind of see in the pictures, some of the motor laminations have been pulled up at about a 30 degree angle, so I'd guess with them grinding around in there, they've done a whole lot more damage than simply running a motor at stall. If you look at the denting/pitting on the outside of the stator, just behind the magnets, those bearing balls were rolling around for quite a while. The chance of one of them (or a piece of shrapnel from the bearing, of which there is also plenty on the magnets) bridging an electrical contact, is pretty high, whether it was a hall sensor or something further downstream is anybody's guess, or one of the BBs could have just sent 36V straight to part of the PCB. As soon as I realized there was an issue with the hub, I switched the motor off, though I'd got the error code by then. ---------------- Also, I'm wondering if the bike (frame) is even worth keeping, after getting the back wheel off I've noticed a hole in the frame on the chain stay (6*3.5mm), which must have been rubbed in by the tire while getting the bike back home. It was raining at the time so grit will have been picked up and sanded away at the frame. There's a deep wear mark, but no hole on the opposite side too. Picrel. Don't suppose there's any way to fix that, or get it fixed at a reasonable price? Welding aluminium is pretty difficult from what I've heard. Would it be safe to cycle with a hole like that in the frame? Or is it a write off? Largest bumps I'd be taking it over would be tree roots under cycle paths and dropping off kerbstones to merge into a cycle lane. Unfortunately there wasn't any other way to get the bike (and myself) home. I walked it most of the way, though as I've said in another thread, I've torn ligaments (PCL and MCL) in a knee, so walking further than half a mile causes extreme pain. This was about 7 miles. I reckon I cycled about 2 1/2 miles of that, there the tire was rubbing heavily on the frame. Rest of the time I used the bike like a crutch, lol. I do have another frame, so I can check and see if the motor would fit that. Not sure if the battery will though, but I'll have time to check before ordering any replacement parts. Good news is I'd paid £550 for the bike, came with 2 spare wheels, lights and a chain. So not a terrible deal and 3650 miles (4250 total on the bike) works out at just over 15p per mile. tl;dr Noticed hole in chain stay, see pic, is the bike safe to ride now? If not, is there any (cost-effective) way to fix that?

Well, I got it open. Though it opened up in a pretty non-standard way, as you can see, after just a gentle tap from the other side. Not looking good. Saneagle was correct in that it was a bearing that had failed, but there were bearing balls all over the magnets on the stator. Removed the bearing balls, plugged the motor in and carefully pushed the throttle, the motor moved about 1/20th turn before giving me Error 24 (Hall sensor failure) so I'm guessing one of the bearing balls managed to hit the PCB and short it out. They've also done a number on the outer part of the stator, unless it's supposed to come with hundreds of tiny dents as well as bent the laminated cores of the motor coil windings outwards. Oddly the inner and outer races of the bearing aren't cracked or shattered from what I can tell, so my best guess is that the races wore down over time allowing for the balls to fall out after hitting a bump. Took the stator of the motor out entirely and the hub gear itself looks to be in decent enough shape. So a replacement motor should give me enough donor parts to fix it up. I'll need to get a new cassette for it too, as this one is knackered.

Thanks for all the responses. Much appreciated. [mention=18796]Sturmey[/mention] AKM 350, rear hub. It's in my OP, but I did prattle on a bit, so you'd need to read the entire post to get that information. I'll edit that into my OP after this. @Peter.BridgeThat looks viable, not sure if I'd go for an AKM 250, would it be a drop in replacement with the controller or would I need to replace the controller as well? Not a huge issue I guess if everything comes together in a kit. I'd heard the AKM-250 is more torquey and really the only time I use the motor which is throttle control (I don't trust pedal assists and while illegal, I've seen people taking e-scooters and electric dirtbikes as well as good old petrol dirtbikes and pit bikes on the paths I cycle, or just riding them on the road in groups; seems like there's barely any enforcement), I barely ever use the motor, only on hills which is only when I'm on the last 3 miles home of my usual 15-25 mile daily cycle and the hills on the way home can be pretty steep, so a little more torque would be nice, though not entirely necessary. Suppose a new back wheel would mean I could swap to a 26" back wheel instead of 27.5, no idea why the previous owner got that, awkward to find tires which fit and with a wide back tire it'll rub the frame with the slightest bit of wheel bend, or it does ever since I swapped the spacers from the outside to the inside, so the brake disc wasn't rubbing the frame down. [mention=3847]saneagle[/mention] Yeah, I'll likely take the back wheel apart tonight. At least I'll get to have a look at what's gone wrong. Ran the problem through GPT before asking here and it'd had went straight to a snapped axle with "Needs complete replacement" though I'll trust my eyes over AI. I'd figured it was a collapsed bearing myself, though the back wheel rotates freely without a massive amount of resistance (and the bike was walked and cycled about 7 miles home afterwards so that's probably done even more damage), looking up what Error 24 means on a YosePower controller, that's the code for a faulty hall sensor (the motor was running for about 100 yards and when I lifted the back wheel to see if it was spinning properly) then I started getting Error 24, so I'm assuming something has grenaded inside the rear hub causing a heap of secondary failures. Maybe I'll be extremely lucky though and it will just be a crushed bearing and the error code is simply because of the load on the wheel due to it being nearly stalled against the frame due to lateral motion. Unfortunately I didn't have much choice other than to wheel and cycle it home. It'd be a bit heavy to carry that distance and I doubt a taxi driver (even with a minivan) would have been happy taking a wet and slightly muddy bike in his car. After I've taken a look I'll upload some pics. I've never seen inside a hub motor first hand before.

Was out cycling tonight and when about 8 miles from home heard my back tire start to rub up against my frame, followed by some metallic pinging. Had assumed a stick had got lodged between my frame and spokes or had been picked up by the tire, so after about 250 yards, pulled over and had a look, cleaned mud off and set off again. After about another 100 yards the tire was rubbing heavily against the frame and the popping/pinging sounds were a lot worse, so I took a better look. Tire has almost complete lateral movement (like if there was a catastrophic bearing failure on a normal hub) and can be moved from one side of the frame to the other with ease and the hub motor (AKM 350) won't drive any more (giving me an error code on the LCD, code 24, IIRC, I'll take a better look tomorrow), but it is still firmly bolted to the dropouts and the axle/motor spindle isn't rotating inside the dropouts. So, my best guess (after walking and cycling, with great difficulty, the bike home, getting home about half past midnight) is that either the axle has snapped inside the motor, or something has gone terribly wrong with the bearings, or the gears inside the motor causing a compound failure. Meaning I'm likely going to need a new hub motor. I bought the bike with 500 miles on it and it has just over 4200 miles on it now, so a part failure isn't exactly unexpected. If anyone has a recommendation for a new, reasonably priced, hub motor (and rear wheel) assembly; building a wheel up isn't exactly something I've got time for. Or good news like "It's probably just a blown gear" (though I doubt it is, seems more catastrophic due to the sway on the back wheel) I'd appreciate that. Ebikes (and your suggestions, I was initially going to get a 1500 watt motor which wouldn't have worked as well as this) got me back into cycling about 10 months ago and helped significantly with physiotherapy and getting back into shape, so it'll be a shame to lose getting out for a cycle until this is fixed. Anyway, posting this now as I'm more of a night person and I might get some good suggestions before I decide to open the back hub up tomorrow. EDIT: Motor is an AKM 350 rear hub motor, so it's got a cassette and freewheel on it.

Would a car fit on a cycle path? Motorbikes are multi-horsepower veichles, even the off road bikes for teenagers (85cc) are 25-30 horsepower. Or 18 kilowatts at the conservative end of the measure. You occasionally see those on some cycle paths I use. Even the no motorbike signs arent exactly prohibitive in their wording, stating (pretty much) verbatim "If your motorcycle causes distress or alarm to a member of the public it may be confiscated" So 18,000 watts, top speed of 60-70mph (and thats the low end of the scale) compared to 500 15.5 or 20 if laws were relaxed as well as the weight (about 70kg, again low end of the scale) an apples to oranges comparison and utterly inane, like saying "why cant planes be allowed to take off and land on motorways because they have wheels?" If somebody is tearing down a cycle path at 30-40mph on a 70kg dirt bike and hits a pedestrian, its not going to end well for either of them. If someone is cycling at 20mph, motor or not, they have a much better chance of stopping and the lower weight as well as speed means significntly less energy transfer if there is a colission. So I'll say again, apples to oranges. 500 watts is still less than 1HP, a cheap throttle is safer than a cheap pedal assist sensor. The latter being my own experience, though I'd love to see if there was published data on it. My opinion would also be that if manufacturers (big ones like Bosch at that) are having to find workarounds to the regs, they're restrictive to the point that they're maybe fit for purpose in Denmark and the Netherlands where you're cycling on flat ground, but in the UK, a lot of which is hilly, more power, even if it's not sustained power, is kind of needed. I'd also assume that lawmakers made the same mistake I did at first with me thinking I'd need to get a 1kW motor because in my head I just compared to 3 phase industrial motors (lathes, mills, drill presses) which run at continuous power, or maybe the lawmakers were smarter than me which is why they capped it at continuous and not peak.

There was already a promising looking consultation done which got shot down however I'd say it's doomerism to just not try again and again, and again. No point in giving up if you fall at the first and while my opinion on consultations is pretty bleak, the more people that get behind something the more a government starts to sweat, especially given that trust in our government is at an all time low, more and more people are starting to see the UK government as a laughing stock and the international community has been laughing at the UK online for over a decade due to the never-ending march to ban more and more things, to no result, but now even world leaders are. If anything the time is starting to get ripe to push for personal freedom based changes. Trying to tighten regulations would result in criminalizing a large amount of people overnight, that tends to make them somewhat unhappy. That is actually quite a solid argument, even if it's just a case of manufacturers obfuscating things. Teenagers here are already everywhere on e-scooters, some adults too. Thing that got me thinking I wanted an ebike was having a go on a mate's e-scooter, though you get actual exercise on an ebike, hence why I went for that than a scooter, that and a bike is generally more controllable. My other sticking point would be a 'throttle' turning something into a moped. Seems utterly redundant as most riders are still going to need to pedal unless they want to run out of battery in under an hour. For me a thumb throttle feels so much safer as there are times when I want absolutely no power from the motor so I can go at a slower pace and make fine adjustments. Passing pedestrians (especially dog walkers) on thin (wide enough to have 2 people walking side by side) paths (with a river on one side and a ditch on the other) designed for both cycle and foot traffic being one recent, personal, example. Expensive PAS systems and controllers are probably going to make that a non-issue, though I can't see a throttle making anything more dangerous, unless it sticks on. You've said twist style ebike throttles break a lot, I wouldn't know as I've got a thumb throttle and am able to position it in pretty much any configuration by putting my (gloved) thumb against the side of the throttle, having the side of my thumb hold the lever and the pressure from my thumb hold the lever in place, regardless of (mild-moderate) terrain. For actual mountain biking I'd probably opt for a good mid drive bike with PAS only, though I'd say a throttle definitely has a place.

Well, that's more of a people problem and not the fault of the bike. Any time I'm riding on a cycle path and see a pedestrian i assume saod pedestrian is going to do something unpredictable, so I slow down to the point i can stop the bike in under 2 metres. . Same for blind corners. Regardless of speed or wattage, or the bike even being electric, some people are going to be bad cyclists. That argument can be applied to many other object based accidents or incidents, recently government ministers were considering having all new kitchen knives blunted because an individual who was well known to the law ans anti-terror groups did something that deserves a significantly more significant and final punishment than was recieved. It's not the fault of the knife for being sharp, its the fault of the inconsiderate maniac wielding it. Instead of crushing ebikes that don't fit the regs, wouldn't police time be better spent by getting people to actually obey cycling laws? £50 on the spot fine for dangerous or inconsiderate cycling would likely work far better. Though it would mean the police would need to actually get out into public and not go after the easiest targets, who are usually the law abiding ones.

This is the problem with many online communities, especially UK ones, people are fixated on fhe current laws and fail to see how further changes to the law in the form of relaxation of laws could be beneficial. I've already made the argument that relaxing the laws to throttle and higher wattage motors would open up cycling to a wider variety of individuals, giving some significant health (both physical and mental) benefits. As for EU directives, its because of the EU (and the UK diligently copying them) that I have to spend extra time vacuuming the house because apparently a vacuum cleaner with a wattage above 900 watts isnt suitable for home use, somehow spending twice as long doing something is more energy efficient, I'm guessing whoever voted on that directive had never heard of or understood a kilowatt hour. So, using that one example (just because its a recent one for me) these directives rarely make sense and are often voted on by people who have no idea about what theyre doing. I've not seen any arguments about why a motor over 250W 'isnt needed' 750W 72V motors seem to be well liked in places where they are legal, by cyclists. Same with 'throttles' yet I've given an example of how they can be safer than pedal assist systems. Not all laws are well thought out or make sense. It seems to be a very specific thing to the UK where people defend laws rather than demanding change when a law either isn't fit for purpose, or causes more harm than good, or they simply accept it as the new ststus quo and pray the agreement isn't altered further. /rant

Just an ebay split-disk pedal assist. Single hall sensor. Would probably be safer to get a gear on your cassette that just isn't attached to the wheel. Gear with a bearing before the splines/threads. That way you could pedal forwards with almost no effort (probably less than backpedalling), a tiny bit of dirt in your drivetrain isn't going to derail the chain and you're not going to have to rely on ebrakes to stop the bike flying off if you adjust the pedals while stopped. You would need to get that freewheeling (in either direction) gear custom machined, though cheap online-order CNC out of mild steel should probably suffice as it's not going to actually see much force. You would probably have to sacrifice a gear on your cassette though unless there's enough room to sneak an extra on.

Sorry to hear that. I assume you continued cycling so people wouldn't give you funny looks for wearing a helmet in public?

You seem to like blogging. Have you tried wordpress? Maybe buzzfeed would take you on?

First off the word "Assisted" does not mean you need to be pedalling. Someone in a wheelchair can be assisted by a family member, friend or carer who pushes said wheelchair. Doesn't mean they need to be wheeling themselves around at the same time. With a throttle it is still a pedal cycle, I'll say this using one with a throttle and I still end up pedalling well over 90% of the time. A lot of the time I don't use the throttle and I don't need to dick around with pedal assist settings to turn the power to the motor off while pedalling. Additionally, I've not heard any reasoning as to why throttles are more dangerous, you've said the law and that's about it. Not all laws are well thought out. as I've said, some unelected individual likely got given a bike worth multiple thousands of pounds with an extremely cutting edge pedal assist and assumed that's what they're all like. Basically the "Buy a Tesla" of the ebike world. I fitted a pedal assist, it gives power to the motor even when backpedalling. A throttle does not do that. Of course I could spend more on a better controller and pedal assist (and probably will) though a throttle is simple and good for an entry level ebike. Most people aren't going to spend 2k+ on an ebike if it's their first, they'll go for an entry level one, or a kit, which likely comes with a pretty poor pedal assist. Shifting your pedals back at traffic lights and suddenly having the motor come on and send you into moving traffic seems a whole lot more hazardous than being able to get the bike to move by pushing a lever in. As I've already said, deregulation up to 1HP (750W) would be fine by me, over-regulation in the UK has never improved safety, be it with knives (which just like an ebike, are primarily tools) guns (again, tools; with one specific purpose, putting holes in targets) there was even a plan to ban beer bottles and introduce hardened glasses to stop pub brawls in '97. Regulation/bans simply don't work and in the case of shoddily made PAS systems, may make things more dangerous. Education would work, which is why a solution would just be a quick visual and written (online or not) course for people who want to cycle 'class 2' ebikes. The benefits for people with mobility issues would be vast, not to mention the mental health benefits for people who, should they not have a car and have mobility issues, may feel trapped in their own home and we have very recent figures on how people who felt trapped in their own homes responded in terms of mental health; not well at all. Making cycling more accessible to more people seems like a net benefit to everyone for me.

I wouldn't have it work on the pedals for some of the reasons above. Though if I were building such a system, best way I could see would be through hall effect sensors and a magnet with it's pole flipped for specific pedal angles. Have that run to a microcontroller that sends a voltage to the throttle input and if you backpedal one full revolution into that position (so you'd need 3 hall sensors, one with a reversed pole, unless N/S sensing sensors are a thing), microcontroller counts the number of pulses, sees that the magnet has an opposing pole to what is normal and locks the bike to the current speed that it is going. You could even eliminate the need for opposing poles and have the bike speed locked after 2 full backpedal revolutions. Maybe allow for some additional backpedalling so you can get your pedals lined up for corners, one full revolution forward or back before it disengages. Probably only good for road use though. Doubt it would be legal though, the laws need relaxed further and it's a pity (but wholly unsurprising) that the recent consultation got shot down. The UK (and other European nations) are dead set on banning everything into 'safety' and have a rather myopic view that, for example, if deaths caused by throttle powered ebikes are now higher than pre-2016, it must be the throttle doing it and not the fact that many people who are already breaking the law, are going to do so in other ways. Given that I've tested a throttle and a bad pedal assist system (which many people may end up getting on entry level ebike kits) I can say I'd never use that pedal assist because I don't want my bike launching me into traffic while I'm turning the pedals back to I can set off at a reasonable speed from lights, I can however, trust a throttle. As I've already said, someone in government was probably handed an extremely expensive ebike and told "This is how pedal assist works" and they voted on having that be the only way an ebike can function, moreover it was likely an MEP, so a person who isn't directly elected. Though in a twist of irony, the UK would have probably never have made EAPCs legal had we left the EU by then. A course of action (not the best one, the best would be simple deregulation up to a point like they have in the US) I could see would be to make throttles and higher powered motors legal, with a caveat. Simply do a one or two hour course on "How to use an advanced ebike", no need for insurance, no need for a registration number plate on your bike, just a little "If bike is going to crash, take hand/thumb off throttle" card in your pocket. Want to make it even safer, there's a system used on boats that is cheap, easy to fit and not bulky; a strap which you put around your wrist attached to the engine kill. All it would need to do on an ebike is close a switch (or bridge a circuit) that allows the motor to function. That could even be combined so that riders without certification would be required to have to have a safety tether, people without it would be recommended to use one, you could even throw it in as a freebie for doing the £50-75 'course' you do, given in bulk a wrist strap and a switch costs next to nothing.