Brexit, for once some facts.

[Danidl]

Do you think that any other country in the world, apart from Norway, actually pay a premium to trade with the EU? I can accept that the EU wants to dissuade other members from leaving the party but this is not the way to do that.

Non-EU countries do, of course, have to pay the external tariff to the EU. But Britain has to pay £8-£9 billion into the EU budget, the equivalent of a tariff of about 7 per cent on our goods. Our free access is not free access at all. Arguing for the single market on the grounds that you can avoid a 3 per cent tariff by actually paying 7 per cent fee is mis-selling on a scale that dwarfs the PPI scandal.

If ,and it does, the UK pays more into the EU budget at present than it takes out as benefits, then it's because it has been more successful than other , in some cases more recent entrants. Not because it's the cost of doing business or a tariff

. I could say that this allows you a place at the table, the benefit of a single European court, the opportunity to contribute to and shape technical standards and a real potential voice in Europe. It also gives UK subjects citizen rights in Europe, the right to own property anywhere in Europe, the right to visa free travel. In a future where England's GDP had dropped and the vibrant economies of Poland and Romania have grown, perhaps they would be the nett contributors and the UK the recipient.
But leaving the EU means all these rights ,and opportunities are forfeit. That you might not value them at present ,is obvious but in a future?

 

[Kudoscycles]

the EU will give us a free trade deal alright, but it may not be good enough to avoid a hard border in NI.
Take steel for example. The EU proposes temporary anti dumping levy on Chinese steels.
What happens if the UK don't want to levy same?
That's why for a frictionless or soft border, we need to join the EU customs union.

If we join the customs union we are stuck with applying these protectionist tariffs and anti-dumping duties,including the one on e-bikes,surely you dont want that,if only for current personal reasons.
We need a FTD but the ability to apply our own tariffs,otherwise Liam Fox's department is redundant,which is why I think crashing out will be the outcome there are just too many directly opposing obstacles to a deal.
The anti-dumping levy on Chinese steel is 200 plus %,that would hurt our manufacturers,not sure it helps Port Talbot....wrong type of steel,hehe!!!
Sorry your post is contradictory,surely if we join the customs union,we have to apply same tariffs.
If we are to Brexit,lets do it properly,have the ability to control our borders both in terms of people and trade,otherwise we have the worst of both extremes. I didnt want this Brexit,I think it is an awful idea,but am now pointing my businesses to a hard Brexit,it will mean fighting for the home market/rest of the world exports and looking on Europe as a bonus.
Just hope Brexiteers and Remainers are ready for the pain ahead,there will be a new supermarket chain called FB.
KudosDave

 

[PeterL]

You're doing it again, aren't you?

For you, like all tories, it's all about money whereas for 27 other nations, the benefits of belonging to a large trading bloc outweigh any disadvantages.

The EU is far more than simply a trading bloc and will ultimately become the United States of Europe. In a generation or two, probably sooner, the UK will once again be begging to to be allowed membership.

Tom

Granny and eggs comes to mind now! Brexit, for us, was most definitely not about what the other 27 Nations wanted - actually, I'm not sure all of them are on board either, otherwise what's all the fuss about - they would pay us to leave!

I'm sure we will do very well without the need to become part of the USE.

 

[Kudoscycles]

If ,and it does, the UK pays more into the EU budget at present than it takes out as benefits, then it's because it has been more successful than other , in some cases more recent entrants. Not because it's the cost of doing business or a tariff

. I could say that this allows you a place at the table, the benefit of a single European court, the opportunity to contribute to and shape technical standards and a real potential voice in Europe. It also gives UK subjects citizen rights in Europe, the right to own property anywhere in Europe, the right to visa free travel. In a future where England's GDP had dropped and the vibrant economies of Poland and Romania have grown, perhaps they would be the nett contributors and the UK the recipient.
But leaving the EU means all these rights ,and opportunities are forfeit. That you might not value them at present ,is obvious but in a future?

I dont think leaving affects property ownership.the chinese own lots of property in the UK,France and Germany.
Danidl...I like your posts,they are useful info and present someone who lives in the EU,but unfortunately the UK seems commited to crashing out of Europe,that suits the Rees Moggs,who want to turn the UK into a Singaporean style tax haven that will attract the elite (why travel to Bermuda when you have a tax haven at home). You have to accept we are leaving,many in the UK will suffer but the wealthy will prevail.
I must say 11% income tax,15% corporation tax,nil capital gains tax,nil inheritance tax,private NHS/Pensions/Social Care,minimal dole or benefits could be worth a try....I wonder if poor man from Huddersfield really knew what he voted for?????
KudosDave

 

[PeterL]

If ,and it does, the UK pays more into the EU budget at present than it takes out as benefits, then it's because it has been more successful than other , in some cases more recent entrants. Not because it's the cost of doing business or a tariff

. I could say that this allows you a place at the table, the benefit of a single European court, the opportunity to contribute to and shape technical standards and a real potential voice in Europe. It also gives UK subjects citizen rights in Europe, the right to own property anywhere in Europe, the right to visa free travel. In a future where England's GDP had dropped and the vibrant economies of Poland and Romania have grown, perhaps they would be the nett contributors and the UK the recipient.
But leaving the EU means all these rights ,and opportunities are forfeit. That you might not value them at present ,is obvious but in a future?

Fair comment but as said earlier I do believe, we (UK) will do well, probably better, outside the USE in the future, but I'm sure the door will always be open.

To bring money back into the argument I wasn't saying that the 9% was the direct cost of doing trade, it's 'just' the cost of being a member and able to freely trade across borders? But at the expense of not being able to freely trade with the rest of the World. The USA trades across those same EU borders, in fact much higher trade volume than ourselves and it costs them 3%. Yes, we do currently enjoy all those perks but to use OT's phraseology fat use they seem to your average Joe in the North. They might bring some benefit to the Multinationals but all in all perhaps not the best deal for us.

 

[PeterL]

[QUOTE="Kudoscycles, post: 410371, member: 5492I wonder if poor man from Huddersfield really knew what he voted for?????
KudosDave[/QUOTE]

Perhaps not - but he knew that he wanted change and that's what he will get. Good change we all hope, like some might say: No gain without some pain!

 

[Steb]

If ,and it does, the UK pays more into the EU budget at present than it takes out as benefits, then it's because it has been more successful than other , in some cases more recent entrants. Not because it's the cost of doing business or a tariff

. I could say that this allows you a place at the table, the benefit of a single European court, the opportunity to contribute to and shape technical standards and a real potential voice in Europe. It also gives UK subjects citizen rights in Europe, the right to own property anywhere in Europe, the right to visa free travel. In a future where England's GDP had dropped and the vibrant economies of Poland and Romania have grown, perhaps they would be the nett contributors and the UK the recipient.
But leaving the EU means all these rights ,and opportunities are forfeit. That you might not value them at present ,is obvious but in a future?

yes, that, in part, is why I find the choice to brexit so utterly daft. I belong to a professional body, it allows me to do work and research with others within systematic parameters, standards. it allows for development and so many mutual benefits. it would take a profound degree of short sightedness to kiss all of that goodbye.

 

[Steb]

Granny and eggs comes to mind now! Brexit, for us, was most definitely not about what the other 27 Nations wanted - actually, I'm not sure all of them are on board either, otherwise what's all the fuss about - they would pay us to leave!

I'm sure we will do very well without the need to become part of the USE.

and I'm sure the tooth fairy likes me. I do love the way brexitters make sweeping utterly unfounded assertions. it reminds me of darth vaders followers in star trek.

 

[PeterL]

In a future where England's GDP had dropped and the vibrant economies of Poland and Romania have grown, perhaps they would be the nett contributors and the UK the recipient.
But leaving the EU means all these rights ,and opportunities are forfeit. That you might not value them at present ,is obvious but in a future?

Tell that to Joe. Do you really think that he would (want to) believe you. He's never had it so good, and yet here we are in the middle of austerity (to borrow a word from OT) and it has to get much worse before he sees any benefit from the EU?

 

[PeterL]

yes, that, in part, is why I find the choice to brexit so utterly daft. I belong to a professional body, it allows me to do work and research with others within systematic parameters, standards. it allows for development and so many mutual benefits. it would take a profound degree of short sightedness to kiss all of that goodbye.

And this will change. What makes you say that, why would we kiss all that goodbye?

 

[PeterL]

and I'm sure the tooth fairy likes me. I do love the way brexitters make sweeping utterly unfounded assertions. it reminds me of darth vaders followers in star trek.

One could, indeed should, say exactly the same for the Remainers. You were collectively wrong pre-vote, continue to be wrong and no doubt will be proved wrong post-Brexit.

 

[oldgroaner]

I'm sure we will do very well without the need to become part of the USE.

Not a chance.

 

[oldtom]

I'm sure we will do very well without the need to become part of the USE.

This 'we' you mention......who would that be? Having read so much of your opinion and views previously, I suspect you mean 'I' or, if a wider group, the British elite, their political wing and their brainwashed supporters.

The common man - the vast majority of the UK population - is unlikely to see any benefit from 'Brexit'. If it were so, we would ALL know about it already and would be clamouring for the government to get on with it.

Tom

 

[oldtom]

One could, indeed should, say exactly the same for the Remainers. You were collectively wrong pre-vote, continue to be wrong and no doubt will be proved wrong post-Brexit.

Now you're starting to sound like Donald Rumsfeld -

Reports that say that something hasn't happened are always interesting to me, because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns – the ones we don't know we don't know. And if one looks throughout the history of our country and other free countries, it is the latter category that tend to be the difficult ones.

Tom

 

[oldgroaner]

One could, indeed should, say exactly the same for the Remainers. You were collectively wrong pre-vote, continue to be wrong and no doubt will be proved wrong post-Brexit.

I wasn't was I ? so that rather blows your statement out of the water.
I predicted before the Referendum that there were enough gullible people who had been conned into blaming the EU for the wrong doings of the Government to gain a leave vote.
And I was proved right.

They were the ones that achieved Brexit. not people like you who come along with half baked notions of a resurgence of the British World Trading empire but have no plan, support a pack of amateur comedians who don't know how to negotiate, and despite the obvious disaster in progress still stick to an idea that any sensible nation would have trashed long ago.

Why are you supporting this crazy slide into chaos?
When the Main body that supported Brexit feels the crunch, which they will if the Government tries some of the downright crazy economics of Minford and co there will be big trouble.
And even if they don't do that it will still fail as we no longer own the country we were born in, do we? and the present owners may well leave us in the lurch.
A stupid pointless set of risks we should not be taking.

 

[oldgroaner]

Why oh why did the Torys vote down amendment 58?

let's have a pragmatic reason please from the resident right wingers, and it had better be rather more believable than "Taking back Control"
Which will not wash when all of these rights were not imposed on the British Government, but agreed and signed up to by them.
We already know why they want to do this, and the reason is quite simply evil.
They want to persecute the public for profit and to hell with the Consequences.

If the reason given is that it is essential to do this for the nation to succeed after Brexit, that is totally and finally an admission that Brexit is a dangerous and stupid thing to do.
If we really need to dilute these things there will be hell to pay.
It shows how arrogant, stupid and detached from reality Conservatism as a credo has become.

What kind of Government takes away the rights of it's Citizens?

 

[PeterL]

Why oh why did the Torys vote down amendment 58?

let's have a pragmatic reason please from the resident right wingers, and it had better be rather more believable than "Taking back Control"
Which will not wash when all of these rights were not imposed on the British Government, but agreed and signed up to by them.
We already know why they want to do this, and the reason is quite simply evil.
They want to persecute the public for profit and to hell with the Consequences.

If the reason given is that it is essential to do this for the nation to succeed after Brexit, that is totally and finally an admission that Brexit is a dangerous and stupid thing to do.
If we really need to dilute these things there will be hell to pay.
It shows how arrogant, stupid and detached from reality Conservatism as a credo has become.

What kind of Government takes away the rights of it's Citizens?

Oh dear - not yet another 'Angry voice from Yorkshire'.

 

[Woosh]

If we join the customs union we are stuck with applying these protectionist tariffs and anti-dumping duties,including the one on e-bikes,surely you dont want that,if only for current personal reasons.
We need a FTD but the ability to apply our own tariffs,otherwise Liam Fox's department is redundant,which is why I think crashing out will be the outcome there are just too many directly opposing obstacles to a deal.
The anti-dumping levy on Chinese steel is 200 plus %,that would hurt our manufacturers,not sure it helps Port Talbot....wrong type of steel,hehe!!!
Sorry your post is contradictory,surely if we join the customs union,we have to apply same tariffs.
If we are to Brexit,lets do it properly,have the ability to control our borders both in terms of people and trade,otherwise we have the worst of both extremes. I didnt want this Brexit,I think it is an awful idea,but am now pointing my businesses to a hard Brexit,it will mean fighting for the home market/rest of the world exports and looking on Europe as a bonus.
Just hope Brexiteers and Remainers are ready for the pain ahead,there will be a new supermarket chain called FB.
KudosDave

If we don't join the EU customs union, we can't have open border in NI, your EU customers will have to pay duty again on Chinese goods that you sell. The CETA deal for example covers only goods made in Canada.
Overtime, Japanese, US etc operations that use the UK to spearhead for their EU operations will have to move a rather large chunk to service the 90% customers that reside in the EU27.

 

[oldgroaner]

Further to my earlier remarks about the performance of the NHS in my wife's case where she waited four months for an appointment with a Neurologist, and duly went to the said appointment on the 3rd Nov.
The Neurologist said she would immediately write to our GP with a recommended prescription for the condition.
The place we went to for the appoitment is less than 3 miles from our surgery.
17 days later I ring yet again to be told nothing yet they will ring me when it arrives.
By now I am not impressed.
Why couldn't the Neurologist simply written out a prescription there and then and then sent a letter?
My wife has had up to five separate headached each 24 hours since then, that's about 80 unneccesary bouts since a remedy was prescribed.
Time to look at the Complaints Procedure I decide, to find this
"
Timescale
Please be aware that this Trust aims to provide a timely response to complaints, however, this is determined by the complexity of the investigation. It is anticipated that a response will be available between 25 and 60 working days; however the average time for a response to a complaint is within 40 working days."

The best thing you seem to be able to do is disguise a patient as an animal and then you can get same day service from a Vet

 

[oldtom]

Hot off the press!

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-passporting-rights-banks-financial-services-michel-barnier-speech-talks-david-davis-a8064836.html

'Brexit means Brexit.........everywhere!'

That couldn't be any clearer, could it?

Tom