Leaving the EU

[JohnCade]

I just want out.
fed up with being lied to by trousering, snouting, gravy train riding politicians.
Fed up with a total lack of democracy.
'Lisbon' Brown the total traitor's head should be on top of St. Paul's Cathedral like in the old days.

“ I’m mad as hell and I’m not going to take it anymore.”

What then? Answers on the back of an envelope when all the swivel eyed Europhobe politicians contradict each other, and anyway couldn’t organise a p*ss up at a free bar.

BTW Norway pays a large amount of its budget to the EU for them to allow it to use the single market. It is held to all the EU laws including free movement of labour, and it has no say at all in how the EU laws it has to follow are written. Similar for Switzerland. The worst of all worlds.

 

[oldtom]

The EU can't be blamed for the British politicians misrepresentation or the fact that so many voters failed to look into what was on offer.

I disagree with your emotive comment that we have a fourth Reich. By any measure Germany isn't running the show, they are merely succeeding as a result of their hard work and full cooperation in the union. If we'd properly and wholeheartedly participated in the same way and made as much effort, we might well have been an equally leading nation of the union now.

Instead we've merely been a stroppy and disruptive influence, undermining at every opportunity. I'm openly ashamed of this country's dishonourable behaviour.

Ain't that the truth!

Before anyone else criticises the way the EU has developed and how Germany has become stronger over the years, it might be worth remembering that the then West Germany re-adopted the then East Germany which was ostensibly bankrupt and largely untouched in terms of development, particularly infrastructure, since pre-WW2.

Now, consider the fact that this country hasn't even posessed a usable aircraft carrier in recent years; there is no worthwhile coal industry; no major British-owned carmaking industry; thousands reliant on food banks, almost nil affordable housing being constructed yet Germany receives criticism for showing us what can be done with proper governance and sensible economic policies.

If the UK loses banking business to other places like Frankfurt for example, this country will have no appreciable income. All things considered, I think we need the EU more than the EU needs us!

Tom

 

[trex]

I think the issue of immigration and border control is a line in the sand for the get out votes. It affects disproportionately England.

 

[flecc]

Before anyone else criticises the way the EU has developed and how Germany has become stronger over the years, it might be worth remembering that the then West Germany re-adopted the then East Germany which was ostensibly bankrupt and largely untouched in terms of development, particularly infrastructure, since pre-WW2.

Indeed, echoed now by their amazing generosity in immediately accepting over a million migrants without question in the current crisis, while we grudgingly say we'll accept 20,000 over the next three years, but only when we say they can travel from Africa.

That's the difference each time, Germany rises to a problem and successfully deals with it, we don't.
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[trex]

...
yet Germany receives criticism for showing us what can be done with proper governance and sensible economic policies...

wouldn't it be a result from proportional representation leading to stable and successful coaltion governments?

 

[neptune]

Then there is a little matter of how, starting next may, the EU plans to kill huge numbers of its citizens. At a guess, half of the three million vapers in the UK alone, will have no choice but to resume smoking. According to the official figures, half will die as a result. They did exactly the same thing by banning Snuss, a very low or zero risk alternative to smoking, throughout the EU. Nothing seems to matter except tax money from tobacco. Thats why I want out.

 

[flecc]

BTW Norway pays a large amount of its budget to the EU for them to allow it to use the single market. It is held to all the EU laws including free movement of labour, and it has no say at all in how the EU laws it has to follow are written. Similar for Switzerland. The worst of all worlds.

Indeed, it surprisingly little known how high the cost of trading from the outside can be. And this is really what's on offer to us if we leave but want to retain a market in the EU. We will just have to be an EFTA member and keep all the EU cross border laws.

Though not an EU member or ever one, Norway has to have the EU pedelec laws. Any thought by those wanting to exit the EU that we might have throttles again then is probably ill conceived.
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[Cyclezee]

This thread hasn't done anything to change my views and I am quite happy to nail my colours to the mast, I have always been pro European and in favour of the EU.

 

[trex]

I will vote to leave the EU.

 

[flecc]

This thread hasn't done anything to change my views and I am quite happy to nail my colours to the mast, I have always been pro European and in favour of the EU.

I will vote to leave the EU.

And that is probably the status of the whole country, fairly evenly balanced.

On present indications I think the final referendum result could be so close that it won't resolve anything.

The one thing we can probably be sure of is that if we do clearly vote to leave, Scotland will immediately break away from the United Kingdom and stay in the EU.
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[Cyclezee]

I will vote to leave the EU.

Where will you go

 

[Cyclezee]

The one thing we can probably be sure of is that if we do clearly vote to leave, Scotland will immediately break away from the United Kingdom and stay in the EU..

In that case I will join the exodus to my homeland....when it stops raining.

 

[robert44]

Considering the following known facts (unlike opinions, such as if the UK leaves the EU, the Scots will leave the UK ?) - our economy is doing as well if not better than the rest of Europe, unemployment is lower than the rest of Europe, immigration from the EU to the UK is at record levels, the EU's open borders policy is falling apart in the face of the emigrant crisis - if we were not in the EU, would we now be applying to join???

 

[flecc]

Considering the following known facts (unlike opinions, such as if the UK leaves the EU, the Scots will leave the UK ?) - our economy is doing as well if not better than the rest of Europe, unemployment is lower than the rest of Europe, immigration from the EU to the UK is at record levels, the EU's open borders policy is falling apart in the face of the emigrant crisis - if we were not in the EU, would we now be applying to join???

Not a fair comparison Robert, since it invites looking at the negatives without regard to the positives of our past membership which everyone has got used to and now disregard. It's also a question being posed at a point of maximum problems.

The fair question is, if we'd never joined the EU, would we be interested in joining at any time in the last year or so. The answer to that could well be yes again, for the same reasons as last time.
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[Croxden]

I remember my inability to decide when we had a referendum whether to join or not, so I abstained.

I may well do the same this time.

 

[oldtom]

The one thing we can probably be sure of is that if we do clearly vote to leave, Scotland will immediately break away from the United Kingdom and stay in the EU.

We can't be certain about the the intentions of the Scots, probably the only people on earth to have voted negatively in an independence referendum, ever!

That said, should a Westminster government take Britain out of the EU and the Scots determine that they would be better placed as part of the EU, like other smaller nations, Ireland and Malta to name but two, I shall probably join Cyclezee in crossing the frontier.

By and large, I prefer the European notion of democracy to the sham model afforded us here in the UK. I most certainly do like the common currency which our governments have never permitted us to join, leaving us always looking like unwilling partners, half-hearted in our attitude towards the union and commonly regarded by our partners as spoilt brats because we're not in charge. It's no wonder De Gaulle was reluctant to let the UK join right at the outset!

Have the rest of the EU heard about our newly announced drinking awareness advice in the UK, I wonder? Now, I also wonder how that advice would have been received here had it emanated from Brussels!

Tom

 

[JohnCade]

We all know that the whole thing is a sham to unite the Tory party which is split down the middle on Europe. Dave’s playbook is Wilsons seventies one even down to now allowing ministers to take different sides and for the same reasons. Party unity.

The ‘renegotiation’ will - assuming the new east European states play ball, result in a minor fudge which everyone will seize on and claim is a great improvement. Again the Wilson playbook. Then the government and business will push like crazy to convince the public - who frankly are pig ignorant for the most part of the consequences of a exit - that to leave would be a disaster. After frightening the electorate to death the result will be a win for staying in. Which is what Wilson and Dave always wanted.

Whether it will work with the Tory ‘ bastards' though is another matter. They won’t give up and will still be pushing for out.

The only thing that can go wrong is that Dave has underestimated how europhobe most of the offshore owned right wing press is, and how the poison has gone in deep with many of the public. So he may well cock it all up and end up seeing us leave. Which is of course the last thing he and most of his government wants. But then this government isn't very competent and does balls things up a lot.

 

[flecc]

We all know that the whole thing is a sham to unite the Tory party which is split down the middle on Europe. Dave’s playbook is Wilsons seventies one even down to now allowing ministers to take different sides and for the same reasons. Party unity.

The ‘renegotiation’ will - assuming the new east European states play ball, result in a minor fudge which everyone will seize on and claim is a great improvement. Again the Wilson playbook. Then the government and business will push like crazy to convince the public - who frankly are pig ignorant for the most part of the consequences of a exit - that to leave would be a disaster. After frightening the electorate to death the result will be a win for staying in. Which is what Wilson and Dave always wanted.

Whether it will work with the Tory ‘ bastards' though is another matter. They won’t give up and will still be pushing for out.

The only thing that can go wrong is that Dave has underestimated how europhobe most of the offshore owned right wing press is, and how the poison has gone in deep with many of the public. So he may well cock it all up and end up seeing us leave. Which is of course the last thing he and most of his government wants. But then this government isn't very competent and does balls things up a lot.

And another factor will be the US pressure and influence behind the scenes. They always wanted us to join to be their voice in the EU and have made it clear that they are strongly opposed to us leaving. The USA nows enjoys very good relations with some of the eastern bloc of EU countries, particularly Poland which strongly allies itself to the USA, and I've no doubt will use it's influence in that region to help get the result it wants.
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[Croxden]

Have the rest of the EU heard about our newly announced drinking awareness advice in the UK, I wonder? Now, I also wonder how that advice would have been received here had it emanated from Brussels

The publicity on drinking awareness is just to make it more palatable when the big increase in duty comes.

 

[flecc]

We can't be certain about the the intentions of the Scots, probably the only people on earth to have voted negatively in an independence referendum, ever!

I based my opinion on the results of the independence referendum and ensuing national election.

The independence referendum produced a close result only slightly in favour of staying with the UK. In the following national election large numbers who had voted against the SNP in the referendum then switched their vote to them in a near total rejection of English politics.

I then add the strongly pro EU opinions emanating from Scotland during the referendum,

So the Scots would have the choice of out of the EU while staying with the UK with it's disliked English politics, against abandoning the English and staying with the EU. In that circumstance I think the previous very close referendum result would swing heavily in favour of independence within the EU in any new vote.
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