Rear hub motor recommendations for cycle courier bike

[Woosh]

Does that experience include CST/BPM and clones?

We've already established the G310 is not up to the job and it's looking like the CST clone is the best option for what he needs. A 1000W DD is just going to be illegal (unless he gets it thru an SVA, has MOT/insurance/licence and wears motorbike helmet), inefficient and he'll probably have to swap out battery packs every 10 to 20 miles.

DD motors are of course less energy efficient at low speed compared to geared hub motors.
motor wear is also subject to riders weight, style etc. The figure I gave is an average. I usually replace the whole clutch and nylon gears, so the fault could be either clutch or nylon cogs.
Most of the clutch / nylon gears I replaced are BPM motors.
They are supplied mainly to heavy riders and high milers like deliveroos. This said, my most successful deliveroos bike is the Rio FB with 3" wide tyres, Bafang G06 motor.
I have not replaced a single clutch unit on it yet.

https://wooshbikes.co.uk/2017/rio/rio-fb-800.jpg

The G06 is also available in kit. The Rio FB is not in production at the moment.

 

[WheezyRider]

DD motors are of course less energy efficient at low speed compared to geared hub motors.
motor wear is also subject to riders weight, style etc. The figure I gave is an average. I usually replace the whole clutch and nylon gears, so the fault could be either clutch or nylon cogs.
Most of the clutch / nylon gears I replaced are BPM motors.
They are supplied mainly to heavy riders and high milers like deliveroos. This said, my most successful deliveroos bike is the Rio FB with 3" wide tyres, Bafang G06 motor.
I have not replaced a single clutch unit on it yet.

https://wooshbikes.co.uk/2017/rio/rio-fb-800.jpg

The G06 is also available in kit. The Rio FB is not in production at the moment.

Interesting. Probably if the BPM motor were filled with ATF the clutch and cogs would last a lot longer. I think the biggest problem is water ingress and inadequate grease, so the clutch jams up and the cogs wear rapidly. ATF would solve that.

Is the G06 the 250W version?

 

[Woosh]

Is the G06 the 250W version?

yes on the Rio-FB. I asked Bafang for it.

 

[vfr400]

Interesting. Probably if the BPM motor were filled with ATF the clutch and cogs would last a lot longer. I think the biggest problem is water ingress and inadequate grease, so the clutch jams up and the cogs wear rapidly. ATF would solve that.

Is the G06 the 250W version?

The clutch doesn't affect the wear on the cogs. All it does is let the motor freewheel. If it jams off, you get no drive. If it jams on, most people wouldn't notice. All it does is keep the motor engaged, so you get a little more resistance during freewheeling. The load on the gears in that situation would be tiny and nothing like the load when the motor's driving.

Water doesn't wear the gears to any extent either. I've had to repair many rusty motors in which the gears have always been fine. You could get the situation where a motor was left unused for a long time with water in it, so it went completely rusty. Then when started, the gears couldn't turn, so they stripped. I've seen one on a forum like that, but not in real life.
Here's Scott's BPM totally rusty, but you can see the gears are perfect.

Dirty rusty bafang hub

Hello all. Noticed of later the weather, my commute and general aggressive riding style Is beating the crap out my bike. The poor thing needs a bit of an overhaul and some love. But in regards to this I've noticed a more metallic sound coming from my hub motor. Also noticed a small wobble...

www.pedelecs.co.uk

 

[Woosh]

vfr is correct. If your motor is rusty, typically by riding bikes in salty sea air (beaches) and you try to 'unjam' your motor by moving the bike back and forward, you can damage the nylon cogs.
Best to take the core out and clean off the rust.
I have seen about 10 broken nylon cogs in 10 years.
The number of incidents is not that great.

 

[WheezyRider]

yes on the Rio-FB. I asked Bafang for it.

Ok, the info on your website is a bit confusing:





From the pictures and the full motor part no. it is the 500W version, but it is quoted as being a nominal 250W and there is no warning about a 500W labelled motor being illegal for use on the road as there are with the other >250W motors on the site. So you don't sell the G060.250DC model?

 

[WheezyRider]

The clutch doesn't affect the wear on the cogs. All it does is let the motor freewheel. If it jams off, you get no drive. If it jams on, most people wouldn't notice. All it does is keep the motor engaged, so you get a little more resistance during freewheeling. The load on the gears in that situation would be tiny and nothing like the load when the motor's driving.

Water doesn't wear the gears to any extent either. I've had to repair many rusty motors in which the gears have always been fine. You could get the situation where a motor was left unused for a long time with water in it, so it went completely rusty. Then when started, the gears couldn't turn, so they stripped. I've seen one on a forum like that, but not in real life.
Here's Scott's BPM totally rusty, but you can see the gears are perfect.

Dirty rusty bafang hub

Hello all. Noticed of later the weather, my commute and general aggressive riding style Is beating the crap out my bike. The poor thing needs a bit of an overhaul and some love. But in regards to this I've noticed a more metallic sound coming from my hub motor. Also noticed a small wobble...

www.pedelecs.co.uk

My thinking was that the water would lead to the clutch jamming rather than causing a problem for the cogs. Using ATF keeps the clutch well lubricated and prevents water ingress. ATF should also help keep the temperature down and lubricate the cogs, so that should improve cog life. I imagine if you get a lot of rust particles inside it will act as an abrasive paste on the cogs, but even the really bad example you gave after 3000 miles, those cogs look like they could last another 3000 quite easily.

With a jammed clutch, when freewheeling, how much of an issue is it with the motor then acting like a generator and sending power back into the controller?

 

[Woosh]

From the pictures and the full motor part no. it is the 500W version, but it is quoted as being a nominal 250W and there is no warning about a 500W labelled motor being illegal for use on the road as there are with the other >250W motors on the site. So you don't sell the G060.250DC model?

that is Bafang way of doing things.
The Rio-FB has the G06 36V version.
I did ask Bafang to specify 250W on the G06 48V motors but they supplied them without the extra laser label.

 

[WheezyRider]

that is Bafang way of doing things.
The Rio-FB has the G06 36V version.
I did ask Bafang to specify 250W on the G06 48V motors but they supplied them without the extra laser label.

That was helpful of them

Is there any chance of getting a "genuine" G060.250.DC with the right label?

 

[Woosh]

I suppose if you order 50+ G060.250.DC from them.
It's mega hassle at the moment. I can't get much stuff from any factory.

 

[vfr400]

My thinking was that the water would lead to the clutch jamming rather than causing a problem for the cogs. Using ATF keeps the clutch well lubricated and prevents water ingress. ATF should also help keep the temperature down and lubricate the cogs, so that should improve cog life. I imagine if you get a lot of rust particles inside it will act as an abrasive paste on the cogs, but even the really bad example you gave after 3000 miles, those cogs look like they could last another 3000 quite easily.

With a jammed clutch, when freewheeling, how much of an issue is it with the motor then acting like a generator and sending power back into the controller?

These type of clutches are more or less sealed against water, unlike the AKM/Q-series motors, which are open and have tiny springs that go rusty and jam the rollers. I've had a jammed clutch a couple of times on Bafang motors, probably for days or weeks before I noticed. Most can be sorted by whacking the wheel in the forward direction with a big hammer, or if it's not jammed tight, just ride off a kerb.

 

[vulcanears]

Is there any chance of getting a "genuine" G060.250.DC with the right label?

Just in case you missed it on the website: The G060 is a fatbike motor with a much wider axle than 135mm and won't fit most frames.
If you're already aware of that, then never mind

 

[WheezyRider]

Just in case you missed it on the website: The G060 is a fatbike motor with a much wider axle than 135mm and won't fit most frames.
If you're already aware of that, then never mind

Yes, 175 mm OLD. I wasn't sure if you were planning to build a special cargo bike for your application, or fitting to an existing bike.

For what I have in mind the OLD would not matter.

 

[WheezyRider]

High reduction ratios allow high power from a small motor. The faster the internal motor spins, the more power you get. You have to put the power in to get it out, so you don't get something for nothing. Consider the high speed R/C motors that I use in model aircraft. They're tiny, like 48mm long and 38mm diameter, and run with 55 amps continuous with a 4S battery, which is over 800 watts. They give more power than the average ebike motor.

The Xiongda and MXUS motors are exact clones of the Bafang BPM and CST, so you can compare pictures and dimensions. It's quite easy to recognise them.

CST clone:

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www.xiongdamotor.com.cn

BPM clone

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Xiongda Wholesale Ytw-05 Electric Brushless Dc Ebike Hub Motor For Bicycle Electric Cargo Bike Bicycle Hub Motor - Buy Electric Motor For Bicycle brushless Ebike Hub Motor electric Bicycle Hub Motor Product on Alibaba.com

www.xiongdamotor.com.cn

Xiongda also offer flexible kits with built motor wheels, where you can specify your motor. The best way to deal with it would be to send an email to bonnie@xiongdamotor.com.cn. tell her what you want and ask her what she can do. Remember she's Chinese, so don't use jargon, euphemisms or complicated sentences.

The 48v kit with the SWX02 that Woosh do would also be pretty good for what you want if they get it in stock. It saves a lot of messing about. Maybe, they'll sell you just the motor wheel if that's all you want.

Last week I sent an email to Bonnie to ask about Xiongda CST motors. Sadly, the company has decided to no longer sell to individual buyers

Minimum order size is now 100 units.

Any other options?

 

[vfr400]

Last week I sent an email to Bonnie to ask about Xiongda CST motors. Sadly, the company has decided to no longer sell to individual buyers

Minimum order size is now 100 units.

Any other options?

That's bad news for us, but probably means that Xiongda are doing well. I don't really know anybody else. AKM motors normally have easy-peal labels on them, which some people find useful.