I cant remember where i saw it, but the weight is 19.5-ish kg, and it is noticeably lighter than most other ebike to lift. Having had the wheels off to lift it into the car, i can certainly tell how light they are.
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Kalkhoff BS
- Thread starter No1foxy
- Start date
I'd be really interested to see where that is quoted, cos thats pretty much impossible for a bike with that spec, unless they quote the weight and then add all the accessories, which is a sneaky practice some brands have been known to use.
I'd be very suprised if that BS10 weighs less than 24kg. and really really shocked if they've got a Bosch bike that weighs under 20kg with all the accessories that are strapped to the BS10.
If it weighs less than that, that means they've save pretty much 4 kg on just the frame over their nearest competition in the market.... and I doubt very much thats even possible if you make the frame out of paper.
I'm happy to be proven wrong, but I would love to see where the 19.5kg weight is confirmed.
Sorry I missed this.
With regard to your first point, I 100% agree. All I was saying is that I'm pretty sure he hasn't registered it, and I personally wouldn't want to be the test case if I did plought into someone's Porsche or child on a bike that is not strictly legal. But if thats a risk he's prepared to take, then its not my problem.
and on your second point... you've come to a very strange assumption that we'd promote, condone or even encourage people to add dongles to their KTM bikes. We don't!
so I'm not sure where you thought I was promoting the use of modified brands of any bike on the roads? I'm not.
Our stance is that we'll sell bikes that are within the law and we support dealers that do the same.
I would be very suprised if it weighed less than 22kg. Based on similar speed pedelecs I know of. The only way it would weight less was if it had a carbon frame which it does not have. It has a more powerful motor and same battery as other non speed pedelecs and the lightest one I have seen with full kit is 21kg.
As I said earlier mine weighs 19.95 Kg without the battery so that is about 23-24 kg fully fitted
ok, so that is interesting - why would anyone want to know eBike weight without the battery? I could say our bikes weigh 15kg, without wheels and battery and other vital bits you need to actually ride... just for your info the KTM MACINA NUVINCI 400, weighs 24.2kg
Having looked on the 50cycles website, they don't even state what size wheels the Kalkoff BS comes with.
So as a comparison, for a non Nuvinci equipped KTM Bosch bike with the same accessories as the Kalkoff has, you'd be looking at a real world weight - with battery! of 23.3kg for something like the Macina Bold.
So pretty similar really, considering the Kalkoff retails for a price so much higher (almost £1000) than the Macina Bold.
Hope that helps give you some useful information to offer a fairer comparison.
Now having looked at the 50cycles website, we can see that you've also posted on their making similar unfounded negative comments about the KTM brand.
by Phil from Leicestershire on 01 Oct 2013
I started the ebike thing with a KTM, took it back after 3 weeks as it was making terrible noises. The shop could not fix it so after a row I was given a full refund. I was a little disappointed with the system, as it had a habit of stranding you in the highest gear on steep hills and the motor would cut out. Not much fun pushing it up hills, also the gears were slow to change.
I went to 50 cycles after getting my money back and purchased a Kalkhoff BS10, what a different beast to the KTM. From my own point of view the Kalkhoff is a superior piece of kit, it is a lot lighter and more nimble and to my eye the better looking bike. The brakes are better and the gear set is very quite and changes are very slick. It feels so light and responsive, it is fast and I normally only leave it in Eco and boost it to Tour on the hills. Last week I got 65 miles from one charge and that was the first charge the battery had from new. We both use the bikes on a daily basis and for leisure rides at the weekend.
Perhaps now everyone has explained the issues, and you've pointed out that you bought a bike with the same system you had the problem with, and we've shown that the bikes are pretty much identical weight - you'd be so kind as to revise your wording as it wasn't an issue with KTM, it was a noisy Bosch drive, and you not getting on with the Nuvinci system - both could easily have been fixed had you been prepared to give the dealer a bit of time to solve the problem.
I can understand that you might not have had the service you'd have liked from the dealer, and we've taken on board your comments about the dealer - but please appreciate that you're negative comments about KTM are actually confusing to the reader as anyone who knows the facts can see your problem was with Bosch and the dealer, not actually the KTM bike.
I haven't come to any such assumption. I am stating the simple fact that there are undoubtedly considerably more KTM bikes being ridden illegally (and covertly) on the roads with the aid of Bosch dongle installations than Kalkhoff Endeavours, which are appropriately built for such speed and power. Whether you condone it or not.
On the 1st point you made, not at all - the Endeavour is an S-Pedelec and has a 350W system. Since this is manufactured and supplied in considerably smaller numbers and the bikes have to comply with German S-Pedelec specifications on most components, they are inevitably costlier. You cannot sensibly compare this bike with a KTM Macina Bold on price or specification.
On the second point, are you saying that the Bosch 350W system and 250W systems are identical apart from the controller software configuration ? If not then they are not the 'same system' at all. As an observer I'd also say that it is fatuous when you are selling an eBike to try to distance the hub and motor from the complete KTM bike sold. The installation and supply of a complete bike is down to KTM. If a car or motorcycle engine is used generically across a number of brands and has issues it does not absolve the complete products in which it is installed from being deemed defective.
Sorry but it all just smacks of finger-pointing and blame. There have been a number of issues reported concerning components on a number of e-Bikes from different manufacturers, including KTM. In the end if in some cases this is down to Bosch components then that doesn't make the manufacturer's product any less defective overall at the point of supply. If I bought a new bike and it needed rounds of repairs to get it going from the outset I would be equally unhappy and equally likely to want it swapped. If you buy something brand new at sky-high prices (which these bikes all are to some extent) then I don't think it's being unreasonable at all for customers to reject those which are defective off the production line.
With regard to how bikes feel 'in-ride', there is a huge difference between eBikes in how 'nimble' they feel and this is down to the complete bike and not a computer-based comparison or back-of-the-envelope guesstimate of weights. The same weight on different configurations with different systems will feel completely different. The Endeavour is a great bike, very nimble and capable and last year was supplied in a non-eBike version with Rohloff 14sp hub. I don't think in fairness a KTM Macina Bold is in the same overall 'category' as this bike. You can put Dura-Ace components on a Btwin road bike but that won't make it a Colnago.
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isn't this a forum? I thought the whole point was to debate things rather than do the work we're all probably supposed to be doing
I'm just trying to work out whats gone and make sure its all clear, so that everyone can learn from it.
The internet isn't that big a place and if someone searches for KTM Macina Nuvinci, I don't want them reading this guys posts and internet rant and not seeing the back ground info, that is very relevant. I'm sure you can appreciate that.
I agree - I was just pointing out that he'd gone from a road legal bike to a more powerful one, so of course it was going to feel different.
I appreciate that I was comparing the bikes, but it was really in response to the original post, where the topic was started with a direct comparison between the two bikes / brands, and I felt that the customers bad feeling about the service he had from the dealer was actually being taken out on the KTM brand.
He's come on-line here and on 50Cycles site, and directly compared bikes... which as you've pointed out are not the same, and its not fair really to compare, plus some of the things he's saying don't even make any sense.
totally agree with that, and the customer was and is 100% entitled to a refund. However if you're going to then go on-line and moan about things, you've got to expect people to pick you up on your points, especially when they don't make any sense.
Any issue on a bike bought should be picked up in a PDI. If a problem develops after this it is pure bad luck. This can happen on any bike, low cost or high cost. When you have a problem you expect the shop to do everything they can to resolve this. However when there are problems reported on a forum it is sometimes difficult to get the true picture of what happened - there are two sides to every story.
Bosch battery weighs 2.6kg (400wh) so something does not add up. I would have said 21kg without battery at least, not being funny but something does not add up as the motor would probably be heaver as well (350watt). Most 250watt Bosch bikes weight 24kg fully fitted (some 2014 21/22kg but this is with new motor not classic 2013 one which is heavier).
Would be interesting to know so I can compare to other Bosch speed pedelecs.
As it happens I did not post that on 50 cycles web site, they must have cut and pasted it. Until I read your post I did not know it was on the web site. Even so the post does not run down KTM it just states the facts. I have not slagged of KTM, but with your uptight attitude I could understand if people do. Where do you get off with your superior attitude. I feel sure that you would not have the same things to say to ones face.
And for your information I am disabled and lifting the bike with the battery on it was beyond me, I did it as a guide after you asked how much it weighed and I thought you might be intelligent enough to work it out for my self. But I was mistaken.
You have to be very careful posting stuff like this. I have received info from customers and others about poor service from a certain shop mentioned on here and am aware of people waiting months for parts for a bike sold by this shop but have not posted this on our website. There are always two sides to every story and you have to be very careful, forums are slightly different. We prefer to let our bikes do the talking.
If you check 50 cycles web site they have removed the post at my request. The post was never intended to go on their web site. I will leave feed back for them when I have had the bike for a while
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103Alex1....I do think you are have a somewhat obtuse argument in comparing a KTM dongle modified bike and a Kalkhoff BS10. The KTM left the retailer as a road legal bicycle,the fact that someone decided to 'dongle it' and make it illegal is beyond the control of both the retailer and/or KTM.
But the Kalkhoff was sold by the retailer with the knowledge that is is illegal as a bike,the day it left the shop it is known by the retailer and the manufacturer as illegal in the UK,I am very surprised that Kalkhoff are happy about this. I believe it is impossible to make the BS10 into a uk road legal bicycle. I suppose it would be possible to make it into a moped,in fact somewhere else on this forum is a member who made his S class bike into a moped,it took him 18 months and the end result is a very strange looking machine and you need tax,insurance and a crash hat!
I have been involved in the ebike industry for over 3 years,as a retailer/distributor, it is very frustrating that these S class bikes are allowed to be sold in the UK. Over 50% of enquiries are for bikes that are either derestricted with illegal speed and/or illegal power, that is a market that only one retailer seems happy to satisfy and they are succesfull on the back of it,which is clearly wrong.
The new London Electric Bike Company shop in West London is only selling legal bikes,they get many enquiries every day for illegal bikes and customers cannot understand how another retailer can sell 28mph,400 watt bikes and LEBC cannot. Despite some lovely bikes from Kudos,KTM,BH and Haibike which are all road legal bikes they lose sales because they won't sell illegal bikes,it is very frustrating for the company who have invested considerable monies in stock to do a good job of supplying ebikes.
Something must be done about this it is clearly unfair trading practice,I have been tempted to produce a 750 watt x 28mph bike,it could be easily sold for £1000 and would be blindingly fast but it would be illegal and somewhat hypocritical of me to do so.
The industry had lengthy conversations about these bikes at the NEC,taking one of these bikes out on the road breaks so many uk laws..
Riding an unregistered moped
Riding without a crash helmet
No tax
No insurance
Failure to display a numberplate
Incorrect lighting
No indicators.
etc etc
I don't think any Pedelec member would take a brand new motor bike out on the road without registration,tax or insurance but because it looks like a bicycle it somehow is ok-the police would soon prosecute any motor bike doing the same.
It can only be a matter of time before some observant policeman spots one of these bikes,probably as a result of an incident and then there will be a knee-jerk reaction against all of us,including legal bikes,that will spoil the freedom of use that we all currently enjoy.
This subject of illegal bikes divides this forum like no other subject.
If you feel that S class bikes should be legal in the UK then lobby your MP,maybe get a vote going on the Prime Ministers listing. But if you feel strongly against illegal bikes then write to the Dept of Trading Standards at Kingston upon Thames to register your disapproval,they have a file on this subject but are of the mind that all S class bikes go to export and none are being used on uk roads,we all know that is patently not true.
The guys at LEBC have a plan to roll out good shops with good stock in other locations in the UK but this illegal bike problem is restricting their expansion plans.
KudosDave
But the Kalkhoff was sold by the retailer with the knowledge that is is illegal as a bike,the day it left the shop it is known by the retailer and the manufacturer as illegal in the UK,I am very surprised that Kalkhoff are happy about this. I believe it is impossible to make the BS10 into a uk road legal bicycle. I suppose it would be possible to make it into a moped,in fact somewhere else on this forum is a member who made his S class bike into a moped,it took him 18 months and the end result is a very strange looking machine and you need tax,insurance and a crash hat!
I have been involved in the ebike industry for over 3 years,as a retailer/distributor, it is very frustrating that these S class bikes are allowed to be sold in the UK. Over 50% of enquiries are for bikes that are either derestricted with illegal speed and/or illegal power, that is a market that only one retailer seems happy to satisfy and they are succesfull on the back of it,which is clearly wrong.
The new London Electric Bike Company shop in West London is only selling legal bikes,they get many enquiries every day for illegal bikes and customers cannot understand how another retailer can sell 28mph,400 watt bikes and LEBC cannot. Despite some lovely bikes from Kudos,KTM,BH and Haibike which are all road legal bikes they lose sales because they won't sell illegal bikes,it is very frustrating for the company who have invested considerable monies in stock to do a good job of supplying ebikes.
Something must be done about this it is clearly unfair trading practice,I have been tempted to produce a 750 watt x 28mph bike,it could be easily sold for £1000 and would be blindingly fast but it would be illegal and somewhat hypocritical of me to do so.
The industry had lengthy conversations about these bikes at the NEC,taking one of these bikes out on the road breaks so many uk laws..
Riding an unregistered moped
Riding without a crash helmet
No tax
No insurance
Failure to display a numberplate
Incorrect lighting
No indicators.
etc etc
I don't think any Pedelec member would take a brand new motor bike out on the road without registration,tax or insurance but because it looks like a bicycle it somehow is ok-the police would soon prosecute any motor bike doing the same.
It can only be a matter of time before some observant policeman spots one of these bikes,probably as a result of an incident and then there will be a knee-jerk reaction against all of us,including legal bikes,that will spoil the freedom of use that we all currently enjoy.
This subject of illegal bikes divides this forum like no other subject.
If you feel that S class bikes should be legal in the UK then lobby your MP,maybe get a vote going on the Prime Ministers listing. But if you feel strongly against illegal bikes then write to the Dept of Trading Standards at Kingston upon Thames to register your disapproval,they have a file on this subject but are of the mind that all S class bikes go to export and none are being used on uk roads,we all know that is patently not true.
The guys at LEBC have a plan to roll out good shops with good stock in other locations in the UK but this illegal bike problem is restricting their expansion plans.
KudosDave
No1Foxy.....are you happy to ride your BS10 on the uk roads or public cycle tracks?
KudosDave
D
Deleted member 4366
Guest
Seems obvious to me ... no bike (itself) is illegal. Bikes can only be ridden illegally and that is something over which a retailer has no control.
Kudos Dave - once again you've used this thread as a soap box to vent your commercial frustrations, which is most disappointing.
The simple fact which must by now be becoming apparent is that many people don't want to buy restricted 250W bikes and wouldn't buy bikes registered as mopeds. The 350W ones are only moderately more powerful and a great deal more expensive but have the advantage of not needing to be tinkered with as compared to dongled bikes or derestricted cheap bikes. Along with actually being built for purpose to which user intends to put said bike - i.e. riding assisted at speeds in excess of the legal cutoff. But buyers on the whole want them as bicycles and not registered mopeds.
I think the point I've made with regard to the purpose-built S-Pedelecs being safer bikes at speed than derestricted 250W bikes is very valid to be perfectly honest. It makes no difference in practice (except to themselves) whether retailers try to restrict supply of higher powered bikes at source arguing that they have a self-styled 'civic duty' to do so. All these bikes are legal for use on land to which the public has no access and so there is no problem at the point of supply. It is not for 50 Cycles (for example) to "know or suspect" anything about their customers' intended use.
The straight fact of the matter is simple - however much the eBike industry buries its head in the sand and thinks customers are not going to get fed up of the cutoff limit, many have demonstrated that they are hell-bent on getting around it - and will do so using after-market solutions if they cannot buy what they want up front. It takes about 5 minutes and less than £100 to derestrict a Bosch bike at will to double the legal assist limit, far more than many cheaper Bosch bikes are built for.
So in my book obtaining an S-Pedelec is actually the more responsible and safer outcome of the two as a decision by the customer. You can argue about covering your own butt for as long as you like (and that's what it basically boils down to as I don't buy your argument over price competiton ... most Endeavour buyers spending £2.7k are not going to be looking at Kudos cycles in their buying decision). I see things in straight lines by looking at end results. Customers in the market for an S-Pedelec, you can be sure, would otherwise be in the market for a dongle. And given that these customers are going to ride derestricted bikes in places of their own choosing I'd personally feel a lot more comfortable knowing they were doing that on a suitably built bike than on one which is not.
Incidentally, I regularly get overtaken at speed by unregistered motorized dirt bikes being ridden from town to the local "jump track" on a nearby hill on public roads. Does that mean the shops which sold these bikes to them were irresponsible ? Their users are WELL AWARE it is an offence to ride them on the roads but do so at their own risk and it is not the job of the shop which sold them the bikes to regulate where or how they get them to their chosen riding location any more than it is the job of the retailer you seem so hell-bent on attempting to drive out of business and cause malicious legal problems for.
Kudos Dave - once again you've used this thread as a soap box to vent your commercial frustrations, which is most disappointing.
The simple fact which must by now be becoming apparent is that many people don't want to buy restricted 250W bikes and wouldn't buy bikes registered as mopeds. The 350W ones are only moderately more powerful and a great deal more expensive but have the advantage of not needing to be tinkered with as compared to dongled bikes or derestricted cheap bikes. Along with actually being built for purpose to which user intends to put said bike - i.e. riding assisted at speeds in excess of the legal cutoff. But buyers on the whole want them as bicycles and not registered mopeds.
I think the point I've made with regard to the purpose-built S-Pedelecs being safer bikes at speed than derestricted 250W bikes is very valid to be perfectly honest. It makes no difference in practice (except to themselves) whether retailers try to restrict supply of higher powered bikes at source arguing that they have a self-styled 'civic duty' to do so. All these bikes are legal for use on land to which the public has no access and so there is no problem at the point of supply. It is not for 50 Cycles (for example) to "know or suspect" anything about their customers' intended use.
The straight fact of the matter is simple - however much the eBike industry buries its head in the sand and thinks customers are not going to get fed up of the cutoff limit, many have demonstrated that they are hell-bent on getting around it - and will do so using after-market solutions if they cannot buy what they want up front. It takes about 5 minutes and less than £100 to derestrict a Bosch bike at will to double the legal assist limit, far more than many cheaper Bosch bikes are built for.
So in my book obtaining an S-Pedelec is actually the more responsible and safer outcome of the two as a decision by the customer. You can argue about covering your own butt for as long as you like (and that's what it basically boils down to as I don't buy your argument over price competiton ... most Endeavour buyers spending £2.7k are not going to be looking at Kudos cycles in their buying decision). I see things in straight lines by looking at end results. Customers in the market for an S-Pedelec, you can be sure, would otherwise be in the market for a dongle. And given that these customers are going to ride derestricted bikes in places of their own choosing I'd personally feel a lot more comfortable knowing they were doing that on a suitably built bike than on one which is not.
Incidentally, I regularly get overtaken at speed by unregistered motorized dirt bikes being ridden from town to the local "jump track" on a nearby hill on public roads. Does that mean the shops which sold these bikes to them were irresponsible ? Their users are WELL AWARE it is an offence to ride them on the roads but do so at their own risk and it is not the job of the shop which sold them the bikes to regulate where or how they get them to their chosen riding location any more than it is the job of the retailer you seem so hell-bent on attempting to drive out of business and cause malicious legal problems for.
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As this is the point of entry section for many new members and to avoid confusion could the moderators please move this thread to the appropriate section and add a guidance message to this section similar to the Electric Bikes section i.e.
"General discussion about electric bikes, e-bikes, pedelecs, pedal-assist. The current UK law states maximum power output of 200 watts (250w Europe, yes we are in Europe!) and a motor that should not propel the e-bike past 15mph. Please ensure all conversations respect the current (albeit slightly foggy) legislation"
"General discussion about electric bikes, e-bikes, pedelecs, pedal-assist. The current UK law states maximum power output of 200 watts (250w Europe, yes we are in Europe!) and a motor that should not propel the e-bike past 15mph. Please ensure all conversations respect the current (albeit slightly foggy) legislation"
D
Deleted member 4366
Guest
I think Alex has explained it quite now, but there's nothing illegal about owning or selling the type of bikes you're talking about. There could be illegality in their use, but not necessarily so.
Shemozzle, just to nit-pick. The European law has no maximum power limit. It refers to "nominal continuous rating" of 250w without defining how that should be determined.