I too agree that battery prices seem to be artificially inflated in some instances and the point made about some batteries costing more than a complete bike, plus battery is a good illustration. There is also a lot of promising, without much substance, regarding batteries.

 

There are some on here who argue that battery prices are not inflated and that they adequately reflect the cost of bringing them to market. Whilst I am not convinced by the points that they make, I have no evidence or reason to believe that these people are, "in the pocket" of manufacturers. They are simply expressing their point of view. If time is taken to look at the historical posts made by the people who are supposedly in cahoots with the manufacturers, it can be seen that they have also been critical where they have deemed it to be necessary.

Like i said before welcome to the world of niece hobbies, prices for consumables are inflated. In away they are really shooting themselves in the foot as people will discard the bike and move to another brand if the battery is too expensive. Personally i feel they are too expensive and too fragile with too many ways out for the manufacturer to wriggle out of warranty claims. But like all other areas the more competition the lower prices will become.

High end brands fetch high end prices, a fact of life. A manufacturer chooses which market sector he wants to be in, low end mass market with small margins or high end restricted market wit high margins. The latter is not a rip-off, it's a simple commercial choice.

 

Does anyone really think the BMW based Rolls Royce is really a quarter million pounds value, or the Audi 8 based Bentley worth it's price? Or a Rolex worth tens of thousands? Or further down, was a Mondeo based Jaguar X type worth so much more than the Mondeo? Of course not, we just appreciate if we want the best at any market level, it costs dear.

 

If you don't like this Indalo, do what Old Timer does and buy at the budget end. He's has had to tweak his range of e-bikes to suit him, but is happy with them, showing that you can be suited with e-bikes just as you can with cars without buying a Jaguar, Rolls or Bentley.

 

I'm one of those who has strongly supported the main manufacturers offering top end batteries at top end prices. But on the other hand I'm on record in the early days of this forum as savagely criticising one of them for poor battery performance so much that they refused to communicate with me at all for well over a year and abandoned this forum for a long time.

 

So when criticism is deserved I don't hesitate to cut up rough, but high margins in high end products is not an area for criticism. I'm happy to explain why this is to those who can understand, but won't waste my time explaining to those determined not to understand by reason of bigotry.

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It would be even cheaper if you could use the existing BMS - just replacing the cells. I think there's a business opportunity here that's already starting to be exploited by some enterprising individuals.

 

I agree - but consider that most of us would want them to be a proper business rather than a combination of boffins tinkering away in a shed and del-boys selling stuff cheap and avoiding wider obligations (sometimes a combination of both in the same "entrepreneur" )..

 

so they need

• enough cashflow to deal with RMA's and duff stock due to replacements due to "rude shipping" (in the words of the venerable Mr Ping) i.e raw materials getting busted up enroute from China
  
• a contract with a WEEE disposal company to dispose of the e-waste that reconditioning batteries will inevitably generate
  
• customer service staff who will respond quickly to queries and sort out problems, including being able to pick up a telephone and take ownership of a problem rather than pushing the admin work back to the customer via the Internet.
  
• appropriate health and safety procedures and liability insurance as these batteries can set quite a blaze if they are to malfunction
  
• extremely good standards of workmanship and attention to detail across all the staff to avoid rework and expensive and dangerous mistakes (I'm sorry to say that I fear a lot of younger peoples workmanship in the UK, might not even be able to match that of the Chinese

if not, one batch of duff batteries will put them out of business very quickly.

 

Also there is every chance the big companies which have a stake in the manufacture of e-bike batteries will use legal action by their European subsidiaries claiming breach of intellectual property rights and also notify regulators about any perceived safety risks from aftermarket products

 

TBH I suspect by the time all this has been costed out the price of "aftermarket" batteries might not be that much below that of new ones!

TBH I suspect by the time all this has been costed out the price of "aftermarket" batteries might not be that much below that of new ones!

 

Quite possibly - I recall the cost of recelling a power tool battery from a decent refurbisher with a reputation to uphold. Now of course, there's a flood of Chinese made power tool batteries that make recelling nearly not worthwhile.

What a very environmentally friendly way to behave - not.

 

Recycling lead acid batteries is well understood and there's an infrastructure to deal with it. What happens to old Li-On (and NiMh) batteries?

 

What happens to old Li-On (and NiMh) batteries?

 

Nothing worthwhile really. NiMh don't have much worthwhile recoverable material at the end of life, the complex mix of rare earths probably almost impossible to separate and probably largely beyond usefulness. The rare metals they originally used were abandoned very early on when the cells failed within about 100 charges.

 

Rechargeable lithium batteries are too new a technology so the cathode materials very variable, and complex on later ones. This makes recycling of the chemical content very difficult due to all the many variations. Some later cathodes have six or more elements in their construction. Also there's no lithium content in metallic form to recover. Earlier ones had steel cell casings, but polymer ones now use cheap plastic bag cell casings so little worthwhile to recover. The newest lithium iron phosphate types have virtually no value in the retained content at end of life, so limited future prospect for recycling.

 

Lead acid is very different of course, all that worthwhile lead incredibly easy to recycle and only third world technology needed to do it

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Edited January 14, 201115 yr by flecc

So they end up as land fill?

That seems to be the situation at present, though any owner adding one to the hard plastics recycling skip might get the case recycled and content thrown away if the material is suitable. Likewise one of the few alloy sleeved ones.

 

Personally I've clearly safety labelled my scrap li-ions and added them to the household battery recycling skip in the hope that someone might be triggered to follow up on the situation, but I suspect that's a vain hope.

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In October 2003, AEA Technology (AEAT) launched a £2 million research and development facility in Sutherland, north Scotland, for Li-Ion battery recycling. This new process employs a series of separation technologies to disassemble the battery systematically and focuses on maximising the recovery of cobalt and other metals such as copper from the battery for resale. All types of lithium-ion and lithium -ion polymer batteries will be treated.

 

Recycling batteries

 

however little has been said about progress 7 years later, I expect at present there is no commercial market due to what flecc says.

 

However even with lead acid, one complaint from the Chinese authorities in some areas against e-bikes was that the smaller batteries used in e-bikes got "dumped in the street" as due to market forces there are sometimes gluts of recycled materials in China and price drops, so these batteries aren't deemed worth getting the lead from... and the economic depression makes this worse as it reduces demand for raw materials..

 

I know Wisper recover the case and offer a discount on new batteries for the old one being returned...

Yes, that recycling info was old, cobalt largely disappeared from these batteries due to the fires caused.

 

Recently some of the compound cathodes now include cobalt again, but in much reduced quantities and part of a multi-element mix which changes frequently as advances are made.

 

Trying to set up recycling for these constantly changing batteries is a nightmare, and I doubt the content commercially worthwhile anyway. About the only constant is the carbon based anode, commercially worthless.

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Hi Folks, and thanks to all who responded.

Sorry about the long delay, but this has been due to the very reason that I asked the question in the first place - my use will be infrequent and restricted to 'as and when I can'!

Anyroadup I think I've got the picture:-

1) I don't need to condition the battery itself, in fact

2) I'm better off recharging it as and when I've used the bike, especially when

3) In my useage the led 'fuel gauge' accuracy is not going to be particularly important to me and that appears to be all that I will be 'conditioning'.

Thanks again to you all, I feel much more at ease to know that I will not be causing myself long term battery problems!

Clive.

Whilst talking about batteries and charging, I read somewhere that you should never flatten the battery completely and never charge it to maximum (conditioning excepted). I have a Kalkhoff bike with the Panasonic system, does this mean that the hardware takes care of all of this for me? Or should I not be running the battery down till the red light flashes and charging it till all 5 lights are lit and then go out (as per the manual)?

 

My guess is that the hardware would prevent me discharging the battery too far and would charge to an optimum charge level rather than full, but does anyone know the facts?

 

Just as an aside, I am aware that the rather larger battery in the Toyota Prius will show flat when down to 20% charge and full at 80% charge. Any lower and the engine cuts in to charge the battery any higher and the engine is driven by the battery without fuel and ignition to help drain the battery down (as a consequence of generating charge from the braking system)

 

Blackrat

The Panasonic battery has a sophisticated BMS so no fear of over charge or discharge, just charge it as and when you need it. Curtailing the full charge and discharge points greatly increases battery life hence the extended warranties available with the Toyota.

Thanks for the reply NRG, but does the hardware do this already with the Panasonic system? ie when charging, the 5 lights light up and then go out = 80% charge (like the Toyota system), or do I need to turn it off manually at 4 lights or 5 lights before they go out to equal 80% charge?

 

 

The Panasonic battery has a sophisticated BMS so no fear of over charge or discharge, just charge it as and when you need it. Curtailing the full charge and discharge points greatly increases battery life hence the extended warranties available with the Toyota.

Not as I understand it, it works in the same manner as other systems, the difference being the BMS can go into a sleep mode thus saving the battery from a slow discharge if not used for a while. Most other systems will continue to draw a small amount of power from the battery.

 

As our batteries are relatively small in capacity compared to cars top and tailing at 20% is not pratical as range will be severly reduced...but as mentioned in another thread the new Kalkhoff 18Ah battery is probably large enough for you to be able to have some sort of top n tailing of the charge / discharge to increase life alas it would have to be done manually.

 

does the hardware do this already with the Panasonic system? ie when charging, the 5 lights light up and then go out = 80% charge (like the Toyota system), or do I need to turn it off manually at 4 lights or 5 lights before they go out to equal 80% charge?

 

On the Panasonic 10 Ah battery, if you turn off as the fifth LED lights when charging, the charge will be at roughly 80% and you'll avoid the high charge extreme that stresses. You'll also have to avoid discharging below the lower 15 to 20% of charge to get the most benefit, so this means you can only use about 60% of your full range.

 

So test on one of your typical routes to find your maximum range from a full charge to the fast flashing LED stage, then use 60% of that as your maximum mileage on a bike odometer before recharging to the fifth LED coming on. All a bit fiddly though, unless you rig up an optical sensor circuit to sound an alarm, or better still, switch off the charger as the fifth LED lights.

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If you ride a repetitive and regular route, such a commuter to and from work, you can use a cheap time clock in conjunction with the charger and keep the battery charge level between 20 and 80% quite easily and without any additional fuss. Of course, if you have a particularly long commute, or are unable to re-charge at work, then this won’t be possible.

 

I’ve been doing this for a few months and battery deterioration seems to have stabilised. However, it’s a bit too early to tell for sure yet. Maybe after about a year of testing this charging regime it will be possible to say if it’s worthwhile.

The de-stressing by avoiding the charge extremes won't necessarily achieve the best battery life though, since there is one remaining life-affecting factor, the discharge rate in use.

 

Unfortunately the complexity of the Panasonic system means the user affects this in three interactive ways. First, the pedal pressure on the torque sensor affects the power delivered and therefore the discharge rate. Second, the cadence used if below the power phase down point maximises the discharge rate relative to the other conditions. Third, the power level selection as "High" increases the discharge rate.

 

Obviously high pedal pressure at a low cadence with "High" power selected gives the battery a comparatively rough time.

.

The de-stressing by avoiding the charge extremes won't necessarily achieve the best battery life though, since there is one remaining life-affecting factor, the discharge rate in use.

 

Unfortunately the complexity of the Panasonic system means the user affects this in three interactive ways. First, the pedal pressure on the torque sensor affects the power delivered and therefore the discharge rate. Second, the cadence used if below the power phase down point maximises the discharge rate relative to the other conditions. Third, the power level selection as "High" increases the discharge rate.

 

Obviously high pedal pressure at a low cadence with "High" power selected gives the battery a comparatively rough time.

.

 

It would appear that laws of Physics / Nature just don't want mankind to be able to store electricity.

First, the pedal pressure on the torque sensor affects the power delivered and therefore the discharge rate. Second, the cadence used if below the power phase down point maximises the discharge rate relative to the other conditions. Third, the power level selection as "High" increases the discharge rate.

Obviously high pedal pressure at a low cadence with "High" power selected gives the battery a comparatively rough time.

 

It seems to me that what you say implies dont use the maximum watts your motor is capable of. If the voltage is 24V and the max motor power is 250w then this will be 10.4 A from the battery. Presumably it is this high current peak that is shortening the battery life. If on the other hand I very rarely need to draw 10.4 A because of the way I ride the bike (ie avoid speed & hills and put plenty of power in from my legs to reduce peaks), and if I thus keep the battery power down to say 100 watts for nearly all the time, I will only draw 4.2 A and this will be a lot kinder to the battery.

It seems to me that what you say implies dont use the maximum watts your motor is capable of. If the voltage is 24V and the max motor power is 250w then this will be 10.4 A from the battery. Presumably it is this high current peak that is shortening the battery life. If on the other hand I very rarely need to draw 10.4 A because of the way I ride the bike (ie avoid speed & hills and put plenty of power in from my legs to reduce peaks), and if I thus keep the battery power down to say 100 watts for nearly all the time, I will only draw 4.2 A and this will be a lot kinder to the battery.

 

The principle of this is correct, but the figures are wrong since the 250 watt figure is a notional one for legal purposes. All e-bikes are far more powerful, but the manufacturers use "licence" by quoting a notional average output over time. The basic Panasonic system peaks at around 400 watts on each pedal thrust, depending on the factors mentioned, but the average looks about 250 watts as this Kalkhoff Agattu output graph shows:

 

[ATTACH]1759.vB[/ATTACH]

 

It would appear that laws of Physics / Nature just don't want mankind to be able to store electricity.

 

Absolutely right, electricity is very much a dynamic thing only. Of course we don't store it in batteries, merely change it into a chemical state with potential. But as in all energy conversion, there are substantial losses in both directions which make for poor efficiency compared with the very effective and efficient electric vehicles fed with external power via wires or rails.

 

Roll on trolley-bikes (or trolley-trikes).

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Thanks guys, this all seems to make sense. It is just possible that I will be able to do this. My ride is 11 miles each way, on the middle setting I get home with one solid light showing from fully charged. Using the middle power setting on the outbound journey and full power to get home gives me a slow flashing red light at the end.

 

I will have to see what difference charging to the five lights on and not waiting for them to go out will make to my remaining charge at the end of the ride.

 

Blackrat

Don't forget that no matter how carefully you try to look after your battery they still have a short life and will die of natural causes -

an ebike battery is not for life, it is for a couple of years.

 

Colin