Brexit, for once some facts.

PeterL

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Aug 19, 2017
998
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Might be a bit long but a good read, especially for Tom

Alt-hate: Who knew the left had so much venom?

Yes, Brexit has unleashed mass hatred – of liberals for the masses

upload_2017-10-12_11-57-59.png
(Photo: Getty)

Julie Burchill

17 June 2017

9:00 AM

At the start of the year, a Facebook friend messaged me, telling me that she and a chum had been asked to leave their north London book group (how I hugged myself on reading those words!): she for posting a link on Facebook to a Spectator piece by me — pleasingly and rather reasonably headlined ‘The Brexit divide wasn’t between young and old but Ponces and Non-Ponces’; her friend for liking it. I was naturally fascinated, my curiosity driven by righteous indignation and unrighteous glee. I asked for more information and Judith — my penpal’s suitably heroic name —wrote back: ‘The last line from the email of the man who runs the book group was “I am therefore asking you to resign from the group. This would be the honourable course for you to take.”’ Judith, he claimed, was ‘unable to engage in rational discussion’, an accusation levelled by men at women who dare to disagree since the dawn of time.

Judith’s like-happy chum Jane, a charming, pretty novelist, was so shocked by the book group’s behaviour that she decided to write a play about it. Would I like to be a co-author? I would.

That was January; in April the Prime Minister called a general election; by May our play was written, and in June the people went to the polls and a nation once more woke up, looked at the person sleeping next to them and thought: ‘Who are you?’ To say that these are interesting times is like saying Sarah Vaughan could carry a tune. I’ve always been somewhat sceptical of the phrase ‘The personal is political’, but when Relate relate that one in five of their councillors has worked with couples who have fought over Brexit, we know that times have rarely been more interesting.

Who knew, either, that there was so much hate within the left? Growing up in a communist household, I thought ‘Tory’ was a curse word till I was a teenager. My father was the kindest and, yes, most noble of men — maybe the fact that his socialism was a product of being genuinely working class, rather than a pose struck to impress/shame others, had something to do with it — but I had no idea until Brexit of the bigotry that lurks within the Brotherhood of Man. We are often reminded of the ‘hatred’ the referendum and recent election ‘stirred up’ in our society — warned off democracy by those who would control us for our own good, as if we were wayward children eyeing the biscuit tin. What these sorrowing sad-sacks fail to add is the hate comes largely from their side. Too much democracy has merely flushed the poison out. Brexit did indeed unleash hate — but the hate it unleashed was not that of the British for foreigners but rather of the liberals for the masses.

It sounds strange coming from someone who has made a lovely life out of peddling vitriol for pleasure and profit, but I’ve been amazed — and not a little amused, comparing their swivel-eyed social media savagery with their mollycoddling manifestos — at the level of nastiness that the Great and the Good (or, as I think of them, our Betters and Wetters) have displayed over the past year. During my entire career of evil, from 17-year-old enfant terrible to 57-year-old grande dame, I only recall wishing death on one person — well, two: the Eurythmics. But my dad, when he shouted ‘Tory!’ at the TV, was content to leave it at that.

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What my dad didn’t do, unlike Alastair Campbell, was compare those who thought differently from him to jihadists. He wouldn’t, unlike Julian Barnes, have wanted those who thought differently from him ‘punished’ by an unelected club of bureaucrats. Unlike Ian McEwan, he didn’t look forward to a time when those who’d voted differently from him were ‘freshly in their graves’. He wouldn’t, as Paddy Ashdown did, have referred to those who disagreed with him as ‘Brownshirts’.

My dad left school at 14. He had no privilege. Yet he knew more and was capable of far more decent behaviour than these privileged, highly educated men. He was from the working class, so he knew better than to dismiss the working class for thinking that they deserve something better than sleeping six to a room and working weekends for the minimum wage. If he’d seen the tax-avoiding multi-millionaire Bob Geldof and his boatful of Remainer mates mocking a flotilla of men worried about making a living under EU rules, he’d have known which one was the ship of fools.

What is this alt-hate, this caring, sharing cruelty? When comedians had to stop telling jokes about non-whites, I felt no need to hear jokes which demonise the old, the Jews and spirited women instead, but weirdly a number of comedians seem to feel the need to tell them. And these are also the most frequent victims of hatred from the alleged left. There’s something reminiscent of Nineteen Eighty-Four’s Two Minutes Hate about it:

The horrible thing about the Two Minutes Hate was not that one was obliged to act a part, but that it was impossible to avoid joining in. Within 30 seconds any pretence was always unnecessary. A hideous ecstasy of fear and vindictiveness, a desire to kill, to torture, to smash faces in with a sledge hammer, seemed to flow through the whole group of people like an electric current, turning one even against one’s will into a grimacing, screaming lunatic. And yet the rage that one felt was an abstract, undirected emotion which could be switched from one object to another like the flame of a blowlamp.

Brexit — and the wounding of Mrs May — seems to have brought out the beast in the most mild-mannered herbivores. And unlike those of us who have always enjoyed malice and spite as small parts of a balanced emotional diet, those kept in check — castrated even! —by their membership of the Brotherhood of Man seem highly susceptible to getting high on their supply of the new taste-thrill of hatred. They call people who don’t agree with them Nazis — or eject them from north London book groups even! — at the drop of a hat.

So our play is not just about Brexit, but about the intolerance of those who define themselves as tolerant. We’re anticipating it won’t be the easiest thing to sell — the arts world is probably 99.9 per cent Remoaner — but Jane and I remain emboldened by a review from the estimable Susannah Clapp, theatre critic of the Observer, of the shockingly bad anti-Brexit play cobbled together by the Poet Laureate: ‘It is old hat… We are in a different, more obviously dark condition, the closest to civil war than any time in my life. Old friends cannot bear to be in the same room with those who voted differently. That is the country I’d like to see on stage.’

And here we are! Ms Duffy may have the National Theatre and the BBC on her side — but we have the truth. Who will buy?
 
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oldgroaner

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Nov 15, 2015
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Generally, I find that every time a subject is raised on here, there is a long thread of hysterical comments about how nasty the Tories are. Yes, Tory supporters state their case and answer back, but they seem to be able to do it in a more restrained, mature manner than you screamers.
They usually attempt to make out they are the "voice of reason and restraint" adopt a holier than thou attitude, yet talk utter rot.
Congratulations! you gave the same standard response they always do.
A little less posturing and pretence would be a good thing and some honesty too.

Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk
 

oldgroaner

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 15, 2015
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Since when has your, or indeed anyone else's, opinion been truth?
When supported by facts, as against the vote leave campaign based on lies.
Brexit will not by anyone's version of the truth work out to the benefit of the majority that voted for it.
Or are you prepared to state it will?

Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk
 
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Danidl

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 29, 2016
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Might be a bit long but a good read, especially for Tom

Alt-hate: Who knew the left had so much venom?

Yes, Brexit has unleashed mass hatred – of liberals for the masses

View attachment 21682
(Photo: Getty)

Julie Burchill

17 June 2017

9:00 AM

At the start of the year, a Facebook friend messaged me, telling me that she and a chum had been asked to leave their north London book group (how I hugged myself on reading those words!): she for posting a link on Facebook to a Spectator piece by me — pleasingly and rather reasonably headlined ‘The Brexit divide wasn’t between young and old but Ponces and Non-Ponces’; her friend for liking it. I was naturally fascinated, my curiosity driven by righteous indignation and unrighteous glee. I asked for more information and Judith — my penpal’s suitably heroic name —wrote back: ‘The last line from the email of the man who runs the book group was “I am therefore asking you to resign from the group. This would be the honourable course for you to take.”’ Judith, he claimed, was ‘unable to engage in rational discussion’, an accusation levelled by men at women who dare to disagree since the dawn of time.

Judith’s like-happy chum Jane, a charming, pretty novelist, was so shocked by the book group’s behaviour that she decided to write a play about it. Would I like to be a co-author? I would.

That was January; in April the Prime Minister called a general election; by May our play was written, and in June the people went to the polls and a nation once more woke up, looked at the person sleeping next to them and thought: ‘Who are you?’ To say that these are interesting times is like saying Sarah Vaughan could carry a tune. I’ve always been somewhat sceptical of the phrase ‘The personal is political’, but when Relate relate that one in five of their councillors has worked with couples who have fought over Brexit, we know that times have rarely been more interesting.

Who knew, either, that there was so much hate within the left? Growing up in a communist household, I thought ‘Tory’ was a curse word till I was a teenager. My father was the kindest and, yes, most noble of men — maybe the fact that his socialism was a product of being genuinely working class, rather than a pose struck to impress/shame others, had something to do with it — but I had no idea until Brexit of the bigotry that lurks within the Brotherhood of Man. We are often reminded of the ‘hatred’ the referendum and recent election ‘stirred up’ in our society — warned off democracy by those who would control us for our own good, as if we were wayward children eyeing the biscuit tin. What these sorrowing sad-sacks fail to add is the hate comes largely from their side. Too much democracy has merely flushed the poison out. Brexit did indeed unleash hate — but the hate it unleashed was not that of the British for foreigners but rather of the liberals for the masses.

It sounds strange coming from someone who has made a lovely life out of peddling vitriol for pleasure and profit, but I’ve been amazed — and not a little amused, comparing their swivel-eyed social media savagery with their mollycoddling manifestos — at the level of nastiness that the Great and the Good (or, as I think of them, our Betters and Wetters) have displayed over the past year. During my entire career of evil, from 17-year-old enfant terrible to 57-year-old grande dame, I only recall wishing death on one person — well, two: the Eurythmics. But my dad, when he shouted ‘Tory!’ at the TV, was content to leave it at that.

Sign up

What my dad didn’t do, unlike Alastair Campbell, was compare those who thought differently from him to jihadists. He wouldn’t, unlike Julian Barnes, have wanted those who thought differently from him ‘punished’ by an unelected club of bureaucrats. Unlike Ian McEwan, he didn’t look forward to a time when those who’d voted differently from him were ‘freshly in their graves’. He wouldn’t, as Paddy Ashdown did, have referred to those who disagreed with him as ‘Brownshirts’.

My dad left school at 14. He had no privilege. Yet he knew more and was capable of far more decent behaviour than these privileged, highly educated men. He was from the working class, so he knew better than to dismiss the working class for thinking that they deserve something better than sleeping six to a room and working weekends for the minimum wage. If he’d seen the tax-avoiding multi-millionaire Bob Geldof and his boatful of Remainer mates mocking a flotilla of men worried about making a living under EU rules, he’d have known which one was the ship of fools.

What is this alt-hate, this caring, sharing cruelty? When comedians had to stop telling jokes about non-whites, I felt no need to hear jokes which demonise the old, the Jews and spirited women instead, but weirdly a number of comedians seem to feel the need to tell them. And these are also the most frequent victims of hatred from the alleged left. There’s something reminiscent of Nineteen Eighty-Four’s Two Minutes Hate about it:

The horrible thing about the Two Minutes Hate was not that one was obliged to act a part, but that it was impossible to avoid joining in. Within 30 seconds any pretence was always unnecessary. A hideous ecstasy of fear and vindictiveness, a desire to kill, to torture, to smash faces in with a sledge hammer, seemed to flow through the whole group of people like an electric current, turning one even against one’s will into a grimacing, screaming lunatic. And yet the rage that one felt was an abstract, undirected emotion which could be switched from one object to another like the flame of a blowlamp.

Brexit — and the wounding of Mrs May — seems to have brought out the beast in the most mild-mannered herbivores. And unlike those of us who have always enjoyed malice and spite as small parts of a balanced emotional diet, those kept in check — castrated even! —by their membership of the Brotherhood of Man seem highly susceptible to getting high on their supply of the new taste-thrill of hatred. They call people who don’t agree with them Nazis — or eject them from north London book groups even! — at the drop of a hat.

So our play is not just about Brexit, but about the intolerance of those who define themselves as tolerant. We’re anticipating it won’t be the easiest thing to sell — the arts world is probably 99.9 per cent Remoaner — but Jane and I remain emboldened by a review from the estimable Susannah Clapp, theatre critic of the Observer, of the shockingly bad anti-Brexit play cobbled together by the Poet Laureate: ‘It is old hat… We are in a different, more obviously dark condition, the closest to civil war than any time in my life. Old friends cannot bear to be in the same room with those who voted differently. That is the country I’d like to see on stage.’

And here we are! Ms Duffy may have the National Theatre and the BBC on her side — but we have the truth. Who will buy?

A well argued position. There is an increasing intolerance towards contrary opinion , not only in Brexit, which is a UK situation, but against diversity, abortion discussion...in Ireland, against any form of socialist thinking in the States , etc etc. That it has reached the universities so that students refuse to even accept debate with contrary views is the most disturbing, without forcing people to confront alternative views, how can we learn. ?

The right wing groups were always at the head of this restriction on expression, so it is doublely troubling that the left is now as equally intolerant. We experienced this here in Ireland over a recent referendum on same sex "marriage" and are now heading into a similar debate on repealing a consitutional restriction on abortion.
 
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Danidl

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Sep 29, 2016
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Peter, in respect of the arguement that ..." We are all in this together so let's make the best of it" Seems on the face of it to be a reasonable plea for tolerance and forebarance. Almost a desire to rekindle the Dunkirk spirit.
But unlike that situation, there is no external foe, all the enmity is both locally created and locally expressed.
The assumption that this is some external natural disaster visited from afar, and that only mucking in together is There a chance of overcoming it is false. It is totally home grown. The problem from the remainers viewpoint, .. those in the UK and those critical , like myself from abroad is that they see this decision as self harm, and don't want to pander to it. Would you supply your alcoholic brother additional money for drink?. You might be prepared to pay off parts of his mortgage, to allow him continue to have a roof, but would you give him the money directly?
 

Kudoscycles

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Can't help but agree that the Bring back fox hunting' was bit naff but I could quote you many more from the recent Labour manifesto
Dont misunderstand me,I am no way a Labour voter,the thought of corporation tax rising back to 25% and income tax plus NIC up to 60% has me running to the accountants.
Brexit just seems to bring out the worse in the Tory party.
KudosDave
 
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Kudoscycles

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Apr 15, 2011
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Peter, in respect of the arguement that ..." We are all in this together so let's make the best of it" Seems on the face of it to be a reasonable plea for tolerance and forebarance. Almost a desire to rekindle the Dunkirk spirit.
But unlike that situation, there is no external foe, all the enmity is both locally created and locally expressed.
The assumption that this is some external natural disaster visited from afar, and that only mucking in together is There a chance of overcoming it is false. It is totally home grown. The problem from the remainers viewpoint, .. those in the UK and those critical , like myself from abroad is that they see this decision as self harm, and don't want to pander to it. Would you supply your alcoholic brother additional money for drink?. You might be prepared to pay off parts of his mortgage, to allow him continue to have a roof, but would you give him the money directly?
David Davis recently commented 'that he didnt think that Brexit would be all that bad'.....OMG,we are going through all this pain and our champion says 'it wont be all that bad'
KudosDave
 

Kudoscycles

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I thought the speaker of the house should be neutral but Bercow's recent comments to Hansard would suggest otherwise.....
Commons Speaker says it is ‘opinion, rather than a constitutional fact’ that MPs must vote through Brexit because of referendum result'
Believe it or otherwise,he is telling them that they can make up their own minds,I think May and Corbyns whips think differently.
Seems like Bercow is a remainer.
KudosDave
 

Steb

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Jul 15, 2017
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Peter, in respect of the arguement that ..." We are all in this together so let's make the best of it" Seems on the face of it to be a reasonable plea for tolerance and forebarance. Almost a desire to rekindle the Dunkirk spirit.
But unlike that situation, there is no external foe, all the enmity is both locally created and locally expressed.
The assumption that this is some external natural disaster visited from afar, and that only mucking in together is There a chance of overcoming it is false. It is totally home grown. The problem from the remainers viewpoint, .. those in the UK and those critical , like myself from abroad is that they see this decision as self harm, and don't want to pander to it. Would you supply your alcoholic brother additional money for drink?. You might be prepared to pay off parts of his mortgage, to allow him continue to have a roof, but would you give him the money directly?
I'd go a step further, the hostility has much to do with recognising an internal foe - a xenophobic, often quite racist, anti human rights (anti ECJ) right wing that deserve much more hostility than it gets for what it's doing to the UK and Europe.
 

PeterL

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 19, 2017
998
172
Dundee
Peter, in respect of the arguement that ..." We are all in this together so let's make the best of it" Seems on the face of it to be a reasonable plea for tolerance and forebarance. Almost a desire to rekindle the Dunkirk spirit.
But unlike that situation, there is no external foe, all the enmity is both locally created and locally expressed.
The assumption that this is some external natural disaster visited from afar, and that only mucking in together is There a chance of overcoming it is false. It is totally home grown. The problem from the remainers viewpoint, .. those in the UK and those critical , like myself from abroad is that they see this decision as self harm, and don't want to pander to it. Would you supply your alcoholic brother additional money for drink?. You might be prepared to pay off parts of his mortgage, to allow him continue to have a roof, but would you give him the money directly?
Probably more wishful thinking. I accept your point, yet, we are where we are and would seem to be leaving the EU one way or another. The fact that it would be fair to say that the majority of the politicians would have voted to remain only to find themselves having to meet the wishes of the Referendum is no excuse, in my book, for playing silly games. They need to start working out how to make the best of it; not squabble, in the case of those Tories; deny it's ever going to happen, LD/Green; try to jump ship SNP; Labour, who knows what their game is? To use another metaphor surely the fact that someone falls over a cliff whilst collecting birds eggs, plainly wrong, but, catches hold of a branch on the way down doesn't mean we all stand at the top, cheer and generally tell him how stupid he was. Only to watch him fall before we realise that the branch he was holding undermines where we are standing and we all end up at the bottom of the canyon - with many still screaming obscenities on the way no doubt? Lemmings perhaps?

Add to that, many of us that voted out, sincerely believe that the EU is doomed anyway. Other than that the Vote to leave was a good cross-section of society with probably (Tom can correct me) more Labour voters, far more than either LB or Tory?

Note: I realise that it will be the over 60's that tip the balance here and given that their opportunities for a university education where far less than the kids of today - that makes them stupid - right?
 
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Zlatan

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I'd go a step further, the hostility has much to do with recognising an internal foe - a xenophobic, often quite racist, anti human rights (anti ECJ) right wing that deserve much more hostility than it gets for what it's doing to the UK and Europe.
The hostility on here has been against anyone speaking remotely positive about leaving ( or voting Tory)
Perhaps you are trying to infer a link between xenophobia and leaving ? If you are are I disagree...if you aren't, you make a fair point.
Its a complete myth people voted leave for xenophobic reasons. Its utter nonsense spread by remainers to discredit leavers. Even Nick Clegg stated ( about the only sensible thing he,s ever said) and I quote." Nobody can have the vaguest reason why anyone voted as the did". Yes flecc, OG and Tom will come back and tell me why I and 17 million other people voted as they did, but fact is , nobody knows. It didn't ask for reasons on polling form.( Besides, it makes no difference now)
The whole world seems to becoming more polarised, which no matter how many times Tom and,OG justify insulting behaviour , this is a worrying trend.
To be fair I frequent 3 forums linked to activities I participate in, fortunately the intolerance and insult is way more prevalent on here than others and than in population at large...and before OG starts telling me that's something to do with my presence, perhaps posters should read posts before I appeared. There were threats of violence.( now removed with according gaps in posts)
The level of self righteousness assumed by a few remainers ( I wont generalise) is staggering.
Daniel makes excellent considered posts for remain. Tom and OG have not. They have both attempted to hijack the thread for their own political agendas. Tom wants a revolution to eradicate all wealthy, all tories, all royalty, all priviliged. OG just wants to patronise and put down everything, to what aim ? I have no idea.
I keep asking OG ( Tom never responds to my posts) exactly what he wants to happen next. His answer was some idealistic nonsense, involving change in our democratic system ....so I,ll ask him again, with the proviso..please keep it realistic..
OG..what actions and by whom and to what outcome do you want yo see next.. Not from a position pre last June but from the position we are in today.. May gets nothing but mocked by remainers but they offer neither an alternative or even a desire for an alternative ( Bevin has been dead a while now)
So...please stop patronising, insulting and tell us what realistic wishes you have ? We might then be able to have a worthwhile debate rather than this tennis match of insults.
 
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PeterL

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Aug 19, 2017
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Dont misunderstand me,I am no way a Labour voter,the thought of corporation tax rising back to 25% and income tax plus NIC up to 60% has me running to the accountants.
Brexit just seems to bring out the worse in the Tory party.
KudosDave
The Tories have the short-straw? No amount of posturing will remove the fact that they have to do what the Referendum dictates they do - negotiate our exit. The rest of the House are posturing or fiddling, while Rome burns perhaps?
 

Kudoscycles

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Probably more wishful thinking. I accept your point, yet, we are where we are and would seem to be leaving the EU one way or another. The fact that it would be fair to say that the majority of the politicians would have voted to remain only to find themselves having to meet the wishes of the Referendum is no excuse, in my book, for playing silly games. They need to start working out how to make the best of it; not squabble, in the case of those Tories; deny it's ever going to happen, LD/Green; try to jump ship SNP; Labour, who knows what their game is? To use another metaphor surely the fact that someone falls over a cliff whilst collecting birds eggs, plainly wrong, but, catches hold of a branch on the way down doesn't mean we all stand at the top, cheer and generally tell him how stupid he was. Only to watch him fall before we realise that the branch he was holding undermines where we are standing and we all end up at the bottom of the canyon - with many still screaming obscenities on the way no doubt? Lemmings perhaps?

Add to that, many of us that voted out, sincerely believe that the EU is doomed anyway. Other than that the Vote to leave was a good cross-section of society with probably (Tom can correct me) more Labour voters, far more than either LB or Tory?
I still dont think we are leaving and I dont think Hammond thinks we are leaving,there are just too many obstacles to overcome.
Forget the 'will of the people bit',we are talking money,the EU wants £100 billion,which we dont have,the UK wants to pay nothing except the continuation of our normal payments.
If we crash out both sides lose lots of money.
There will come a point when sense will prevail,the EU will give us some of what we want provided we continue to give them money and May will say that the deal is now so good she recommends we stay.
KudosDave
 

PeterL

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 19, 2017
998
172
Dundee
I'd go a step further, the hostility has much to do with recognising an internal foe - a xenophobic, often quite racist, anti human rights (anti ECJ) right wing that deserve much more hostility than it gets for what it's doing to the UK and Europe.
I'm sure you would but you'd be wrong of course.

Let me refer you to this snip:

Add to that, many of us that voted out, sincerely believe that the EU is doomed anyway. Other than that the Vote to leave was a good cross-section of society with probably (Tom can correct me) more Labour voters, far more than either LB or Tory?

Arguably my opinion but, tell me, in a quiet measured voice, where I am wrong?
 
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Kudoscycles

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Apr 15, 2011
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The Tories have the short-straw? No amount of posturing will remove the fact that they have to do what the Referendum dictates they do - negotiate our exit. The rest of the House are posturing or fiddling, while Rome burns perhaps?
No they dont,remember the referendum was only advisory,their is no legal commitment to leave.
KudosDave
 
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PeterL

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 19, 2017
998
172
Dundee
No they dont,remember the referendum was only advisory,their is no legal commitment to leave.
KudosDave
So, when the people, in a Referendum, with a clear question, for which the majority, say jump to the Politicians. They don't jump. Instead they then say how high - really? Reminds me of the cup of tea sketch, With sugar, without sugar, white or black, milk before or milk after, with a biscuit and on it goes... until someone has had enough.
 

Steb

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jul 15, 2017
328
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The hoostility on here as been against anyone speaking remotely positive about leaving ( or voting Tory)
Perhaps you are trying to infer a link between xenophobia and leaving ? If you are are disagree...if you aren't, you make a fair point.
The whole world seems to becoming more polarised, which no matter how many times Tom and,OG justify insulting behaviour , this is a worrying trend.
To be fair I frequent 3 forums linked to activities I participate in, fortunately the intolerance and insult is way more prevalent on here than others and than in population at large...and before OG starts telling me that's something to do with my presence, perhaps posters should read posts before I appeared. There were threats of violence.( now removed with according gaps in posts)
The level of self righteousness assumed by a few remainers ( I wont generalise) is staggering.
Daniel makes excellent considered posts for remain. Tom and OG have not. They have both attempted to hijack the thread for their own political agendas. Tom wants a revolution to eradicate all wealthy, all tories, all royalty, all priviliged. OG just wants to patronise and put down everything, to what aim ? I have no idea.
There is an obvious strong link between ukip and brexit, and to call ukip xenophobic would be an understatement. There isn't a reasonable case for brexit, economically, politically or philosophically. It's not a reality, its a destructive regime the extreme right are trying to subject a previously liberal society to. It's OK to be intolerant of it,have polarised feelings towards it. Its not a reasonable position to take. Would you argue with geest wilder or le pen or trump about the wall or pulling USA out of unesco?
 
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Steb

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jul 15, 2017
328
613
45
london
The Tories have the short-straw? No amount of posturing will remove the fact that they have to do what the Referendum dictates they do - negotiate our exit. The rest of the House are posturing or fiddling, while Rome burns perhaps?
Erm, you do realise the tories single handedly landed us in this mess by trying to neutralise its lunatic eutrophobic fringe?
 

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