Brexit, for once some facts.

[oldgroaner]

From the Express
"
HOW DARE HE! Corbyn aide claims UK actions in Middle East WORSE than ISIS terror attacks
THE WAR on Terror was the greatest crime of the last 18 years and the Western leaders who initiated it are the worst criminals of the century, a top Corbyn aide has raged.

Let's see now, what cost over a million lives displaced almost as many and was one of the primary causes of floods of refugees?
And brought about groups like ISIS?
https://www.history.com/topics/21st-century/isis
"
The U.S. invasion of Iraq began in 2003, and the aim of al Qaeda in Iraq was to remove Western occupation and replace it with a Sunni Islamist regime.

When Zarqawi was killed during a U.S. airstrike in 2006, Egyptian Abu Ayyub al-Masri became the new leader and renamed the group “ISI,” which stood for “Islamic State of Iraq.” In 2010, Masri died in a US-Iraqi operation, and Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi took power.

ISIS Fast Facts: CNN.
ISIS goes global: 143 attacks in 29 countries have killed 2,043: CNN.

ISIS are a blot on humanity what we did was worse, so how dare the Express deny that?

 

[oyster]

So many times we have seen people scoff at suggestions that there will be disruption if no-deal brexit goes ahead.

No-deal Brexit could hit UK-EU flights, says Whitehall
Papers also show pets would need rabies tests and motorists an insurance green card

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/sep/24/uk-eu-flights-would-cease-immediately-in-event-of-no-deal-brexit

 

[oyster]

educate and train our own to enjoy these positions

It is the failure to do this that underlies so much that is wrong.

Remember that pre-Poland it could be hard to find a skilled plumber who was available.

 

[oldgroaner]

https://dailym.ai/2OLGvcD

Yes, I know DM puts its usual spin on such things but 2 points.
A)Labour insist on providing such fodder for right wing press to regurgitate.
B) Read the comments to glean in idea of what people think about Labour at moment.

Am I supposed to be impressed? what do you expect from Daily Mail comments?
Typical of the old chestnuts is the one about the "Winter of Discontent" and "Union Bullying" coming back.
But does anyone remember why that happened? how the unions had agreed to three consecutive years of wage demand restraint and inflation caused the fuse to finally blow?

From the Historyextra.com.
"
What might be the lessons from the 1970s for the government and unions today?
JM: For most journalists and politicians, the blame for the disorderly strikes of low-paid public service workers in 1978/9 lay with the unions. In fact, that wave of strikes was as much due to the dam bursting after three years of voluntary pay restraint by the unions.

Lord (Denis) Healey, then chancellor of the Exchequer, has since admitted that the government’s pay policy limit was too rigid. “If we had agreed on a formula such as ‘single figures’… we would certainly have been able to avoid the winter of discontent”, he wrote later.

Yet somhow in the public mind it became the fault of the unions not the government.

When you feed lies to the public for such a long term, it skews their judgement, as indeed it was intended to.
And that is the same process that predictably caused the Brexit vote

Lies that become accepted truths

 

[oldgroaner]

So many times we have seen people scoff at suggestions that there will be disruption if no-deal brexit goes ahead.


Papers also show pets would need rabies tests and motorists an insurance green card

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/sep/24/uk-eu-flights-would-cease-immediately-in-event-of-no-deal-brexit

After Farage the EU may decide they have got this the wrong way round

 

[oldgroaner]

From the Express
"
BRUSSELS PANIC: May and Trump to hold Brexit trade talks TOMORROW - WARNING to EU
THERESA May is to hold trade talks with Donald Trump on Wednesday as she prepares for Britain’s successful future after Brexit.

I find it hard to believe that anyone, anywhere would trust the word of Trump, you would have to be insane to do so.

 

[Zlatan]

Am I supposed to be impressed? what do you expect from Daily Mail comments?
Typical of the old chestnuts is the one about the "Winter of Discontent" and "Union Bullying" coming back.
But does anyone remember why that happened? how the unions had agreed to three consecutive years of wage demand restraint and inflation caused the fuse to finally blow?

From the Historyextra.com.
"
What might be the lessons from the 1970s for the government and unions today?
JM: For most journalists and politicians, the blame for the disorderly strikes of low-paid public service workers in 1978/9 lay with the unions. In fact, that wave of strikes was as much due to the dam bursting after three years of voluntary pay restraint by the unions.

Lord (Denis) Healey, then chancellor of the Exchequer, has since admitted that the government’s pay policy limit was too rigid. “If we had agreed on a formula such as ‘single figures’… we would certainly have been able to avoid the winter of discontent”, he wrote later.

Yet somhow in the public mind it became the fault of the unions not the government.

When you feed lies to the public for such a long term, it skews their judgement, as indeed it was intended to.
And that is the same process that predictably caused the Brexit vote

Lies that become accepted truths

Not sure of your point here OG. Are you suggesting these proclamations made by various Labour leaders are
A)Likely to get them in power ?
Or
B) Likely to be successful if brought in.
Making noises like Corbyn and his deputies are doing along with their current manifesto (it would change pre GE) are simply making Labour utterly unelectable leaving no alternative to Tories.
Even outside DM comments find me someone who would support Labour's current "pledges". (eg the 10% capital theft)
Business is already struggling how can introducing further hardships to them help??

 

[Zlatan]

From the Express
"
BRUSSELS PANIC: May and Trump to hold Brexit trade talks TOMORROW - WARNING to EU
THERESA May is to hold trade talks with Donald Trump on Wednesday as she prepares for Britain’s successful future after Brexit.

I find it hard to believe that anyone, anywhere would trust the word of Trump, you would have to be insane to do so.

Insanity is a prerequirement on both sides of house at moment. It won't be a problem OG. (finding an insane leader)

 

[oldgroaner]

Not sure of your point here OG. Are you suggesting these proclamations made by various Labour leaders are
A)Likely to get them in power ?
Or
B) Likely to be successful if brought in.
Making noises like Corbyn and his deputies are doing along with their current manifesto (it would change pre GE) are simply making Labour utterly unelectable leaving no alternative to Tories.
Even outside DM comments find me someone who would support Labour's current "pledges". (eg the 10% capital theft)

Neither actually, they are aimed at voters after the Brexit day split in the case where things have started to turn "sour"
And I thought I was clear in saying they have no chance of being succesful as the odds are too great against them.
I believe that labour have written off the prospect of a GE before that date, and are making a "long term" pitch.

 

[oyster]

After Farage the EU may decide they have got this the wrong way round

Farage should have a rabies test and will not be allowed anywhere without an insurance green card? Sounds like a start... Hopefully the UK will start this process while he is out of the country.

 

[Woosh]

I find it hard to believe that anyone, anywhere would trust the word of Trump, you would have to be insane to do so.

even less the headlines in the Daily Express.

 

[Zlatan]

Neither actually, they are aimed at voters after the Brexit day split in the case where things have started to turn "sour"
And I thought I was clear in saying they have no chance of being succesful as the odds are too great against them.
I believe that labour have written off the prospect of a GE before that date, and are making a "long term" pitch.

Agreed but...
The rhetoric coming out of Labour is exactly why odds are stacked against them.

 

[oldgroaner]

Agreed but...
The rhetoric coming out of Labour is exactly why odds are stacked against them.

Which fit nicely with my theory that they really don't think it would be a good idea to get into power right now, surely that is a very sensible standpoint?
After all who wants to attend what is likely to be their own funeral?
The referendum and it's consequences was, and remains, the property of the Conservatives and will prove to be a case of
"Hoisted with their own petard"

What would I doin labour's position

1. Give the Rght wing press something silly to discredit us that is old hat to avoid possible election and to catch all the crap
   
2. Offer a sweet shop of alternatives to the public that sounds too good to be true
   
3. Wait for Brexit to turn sour then offer your real intentions sound like salvation and get elected.

That seems to be the plan, but what follows that is failure as there is no means available to make things improve outside the EU
Till the next GE in two years time, the best strategy is surely to let the Tory party strangle itself to death and get the country into trouble they can't handle.
Then negotiate for re admission to the EU

I really cannot see any way of avoiding the cost incurred by the Brexit decision, it is far too late for that

 

[oldgroaner]

Comic comment in the Independent this morning
"
That bl__dy frog 15 hours ago
Good riddance to the hopeless and doomed EU. I want to break free. I cannot wait till we are out and away from this bunch of grasping puppets with their massive pensions.
Reply •
-1 likes

MyEx 1 hour ago
You can't break free from the EU. Russia is not a part of it.

Classic!

 

[Zlatan]

Which fit nicely with my theory that they really don't think it would be a good idea to get into power right now, surely that is a very sensible standpoint?
After all who wants to attend what is likely to be their own funeral?
The referendum and it's consequences was, and remains, the property of the Conservatives and will prove to be a case of
"Hoisted with their own petard"

What would I doin labour's position

1. Give the Rght wing press something silly to discredit us that is old hat to avoid possible election and to catch all the crap
   
2. Offer a sweet shop of alternatives to the public that sounds too good to be true
   
3. Wait for Brexit to turn sour then offer your real intentions sound like salvation and get elected.

That seems to be the plan, but what follows that is failure as there is no means available to make things improve outside the EU
Till the next GE in two years time, the best strategy is surely to let the Tory party strangle itself to death and get the country into trouble they can't handle.
Then negotiate for re admission to the EU

I really cannot see any way of avoiding the cost incurred by the Brexit decision, it is far too late for that

Could be OG... But I suspect you are crediting Labour with far more strategic reasoning than reality. Fact Corbyn is a Euro sceptic also throws doubt on your reasoning. Other issue is average age of Labour leaders. Yes, we all know Churchill worked into his eighties and was probably at his best mid 60s,but he, s the exception that proves the rule.Besides Abbot at 65 is already showing signs of dementia... and she, s the youngest. Would politicians hitting 70 really be introducing strategies to get power 5 or 10 years down the line? Perhaps but still handing reins to Tories. No time like the present for anything OG. I suspect they are simply barking mad.

 

[oldgroaner]

Could be OG... But I suspect you are crediting Labour with far more strategic reasoning than reality. Fact Corbyn is a Euro sceptic also throws doubt on your reasoning. Other issue is average age of Labour leaders. Yes, we all know Churchill worked into his eighties and was probably at his best mid 60s,but he, s the exception that proves the rule.Besides Abbot at 65 is already showing signs of dementia... and she, s the youngest. Would politicians hitting 70 really be introducing strategies to get power 5 or 10 years down the line? Perhaps but still handing reins to Tories. No time like the present for anything OG. I suspect they are simply barking mad.

I agree they are still handing the reins of power to the tories, and a brilliant move it will prove to be, as whatever the outcome of Brexit the public will not hold them responsible simply because they agreed to go along with the referendum vote.

For after all to do so is to admit they personally made a mistake in voting for Brexit and they will never do that will they?

And Brexit voters demanded that Brexit be respected didn't they?
The failure or success will land on the Tory doorstep where it belongs.
To take power now would be foolish in the extreme, unless it is to cancel Brexit, and frankly Labour lack the guts to do that., for the simple reason they don't have to.
As to this age business, I'm in my mid 70's and still likely to plant a tree I won't live to see grow to maturity.

 

[Zlatan]

Good post OG. See your reasoning but not convinced..

 

[Woosh]

Sky poll: Jeremy Corbyn would be 'incompetent' Brexit negotiator.
A Sky Data poll found 22% of people thought the Labour leader would be competent to negotiate Brexit, compared to 71% who thought he would be incompetent.
https://news.sky.com/story/jeremy-corbyn-would-be-incompetent-brexit-negotiator-poll-11508078

JC has a low rating as a possible PM.

 

[Fingers]

Labour has just thrown away any chance of a victory in the next GE.

Pandering to the metropolitan voters who don’t even want Corbyn in charge with a second referendum is not going through get them in power.

Idiots. We’ve now got these idiots in charge for another decade.

What a mess. How did Corbyn allow this to happen. Guy is so weak it’s scary.

 

[oyster]

eremy Corbyn would be 'incompetent' Brexit negotiator.
A Sky Data poll found 22% of people thought the Labour leader would be competent to negotiate Brexit, compared to 71% who thought he would be incompetent.

Does anyone think any of our current or former brexit negotiators are (or were) competent?