Brexit, for once some facts.

[flecc]

Flecc,
Don't forget the part that the Unions played in destroying Britain.

Really only the motor industry, but I didn't forget, they are still trying hard, Southern Rail and LU for example.

But outside the EU we let them, since then we haven't. We've got tougher where it's necessary, and also learnt from competing companies.
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[D8ve]

Jeez! I last looked at this thread about 3 months ago, when the same people were saying exactly the same thing. How many times have all those comments been repeated during seven months and 9000 posts?

Is there any chance that someone will win the argument?

Before we joined the ECC, Uk worked more or less OK. After we joined the ECC, UK still worked mostly OK. When we leave, UK will still be more or less OK. When we make another alliance, we'll still be more or less OK. What is there to argue about? Can you change anything?

No one can win, that needs people to listen to what's said!
This is just pointless repetitive opinions.

 

[Woosh]

The ability for industry in isolation to fail without unfavourable comparisons with EU partner countries.

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Most of what you say applies to conservative ideology - they may not hold on to power in 2020.

The EU needs to solve several problems relating to brexit:

1. identity politics
2. globalization exporting cheap labour from newest member states
3. budget: how to compensate for the lack of UK contribution
4. treatment of countries not wishing to take part in ever closer union

We may just as well stay out of it in the mean time. They'll do it quicker without the UK.

 

[flecc]

We may just as well stay out of it in the mean time. They'll do it quicker without the UK.

That's for sure. I have much sympathy with your view, I was strongly opposed to the enlargement of the EU by inclusion of the ex Warsaw Pact countries. It would have been more sensible to pursue the one nation objective with fewer members first.

But none of this is related to how well we will manage outside of the EU. That's not a personal concern since I won't be around in a decade or so, leaving my impersonal factually based opinion that the UK will not succeed and will probably return to the EU eventually.
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[Woosh]

How well we'll do outside the EU is 99% in the hand of the next parliament. If we leave our future in the hands of zealots and greedy billionaires then we'll only have ourselves to blame.

 

[flecc]

How well we'll do outside the EU is 99% in the hand of the next parliament. If we leave our future in the hands of zealots and greedy billionaires then we'll only have ourselves to blame.

True enough. Sadly I think thats what will probably happen though, so many of the electorate still blaming the EU for everything as the Brexit vote showed.

After dumping Theresa May, the tories will present Boris Johnson as their leader, knowing how much the public irrationally like him, and he'll use his usual guile to charm them once again.
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[Danidl]

Jeez! I last looked at this thread about 3 months ago, when the same people were saying exactly the same thing. How many times have all those comments been repeated during seven months and 9000 posts?

Is there any chance that someone will win the argument?

Before we joined the ECC, Uk worked more or less OK. After we joined the ECC, UK still worked mostly OK. When we leave, UK will still be more or less OK. When we make another alliance, we'll still be more or less OK. What is there to argue about? Can you change anything?

Hi Dave, the situation is as of January 2017, nothing has been resolved, therefore there is a point in discussion. John Hume had to repeat the exact same message for close to 20 years before he could get both sides in the North of Ireland to eventually listen.
The assumption that brexit is all done and dusted is False propaganda, and my hope in continuing to raise the issue is advise those who do have a voice and a vote to use it wisely.
Do you not also find that much of the solid advice you give in the technologies posts not also repeated usually. Again and again. Hopefully to different people.?
I do however find the personal insults boring and a dialogue of the deaf

 

[Danidl]

Harmonization is one of the mechanisms to run the single market. However, it has unintended consequences. The main issue is the rigid fork that member countries must stick to. Look at the last problem at Port Talbot steel mill. As a member, the UK wants no ADT on Chinese steel but can't help Tata because of state aid rule. I know I simplify the issue but you get the drift.





The real problem for our country is the tory government. Brexit or not, they are bad news.

I did not vote for brexit but I respect the result and wish for the best outcome, that is one step short of FOM and one step short of the single market. A customs Union + a negotiated deal for our fintech is my preferred brexit..

By FOM I am assuming you mean full ordinary member. That would be my preferred end position for the UK. Failing that your one step shy of that... would be ok but as the steps increase towards the hard brexit position less and less so.

 

[Danidl]

Most of what you say applies to conservative ideology - they may not hold on to power in 2020.

The EU needs to solve several problems relating to brexit:

1. identity politics
2. globalization exporting cheap labour from newest member states
3. budget: how to compensate for the lack of UK contribution
4. treatment of countries not wishing to take part in ever closer union

We may just as well stay out of it in the mean time. They'll do it quicker without the UK.

Woosh
Of the 4 points you make here , and they are good points only one relates to brexit. (Item 3 ). The other points need to be developed irrespective of the UK position.

 

[oldgroaner]

Zealots talking to Zealots.
KEEP AWAY!

If you can't offer a sensible argument in favour of brexit

Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk

 

[oldgroaner]

No one can win, that needs people to listen to what's said!
This is just pointless repetitive opinions.

And no rational pro brexit arguments

Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk

 

[Woosh]

I did try to put up some positive about brexit.
It is clear for all to see that the UK do not want ever closer union, unlike the majority of EU membership. We will have to change or the EU will have to change on the long term. For that reason, we need to know how we would cope outside the EU on our own.
Supermarkets have put up prices by between 5% to 10% since the new year, national stats show exports grew by 1.5 billions while imports grew by 6.5 billions in November. We know the Pound will continue to be weak for the foreseeable future. Everybody knows how the tories handle the NHS and it is now pretty clear what brexit will be likely.
There will never be a good time to face the evils of transition but now, it is just as good time as it gets if you expect that the tories will fall on their own sword.
The tories will be judged by how they handle brexit. If brexit fails, it will be their fault, nobody else's.

 

[oldgroaner]

I did try to put up some positive about brexit.
It is clear for all to see that the UK do not want ever closer union, unlike the majority of EU membership. We will have to change or the EU will have to change on the long term. For that reason, we need to know how we would cope outside the EU on our own.
Supermarkets have put up prices by between 5% to 10% since the new year, national stats show exports grew by 1.5 billions while imports grew by 6.5 billions in November. We know the Pound will continue to be weak for the foreseeable future. Everybody knows how the tories handle the NHS and it is now pretty clear what brexit will be likely.
There will never be a good time to face the evils of transition but now, it is just as good time as it gets if you expect that the tories will fall on their own sword.
The tories will be judged by how they handle brexit. If brexit fails, it will be their fault, nobody else's.

But they will blame the EU for imposing impossible terms and the press will support that, this will keep them going for years.
In the meantime the Government will run riot and it will be years before it dawns on the Public that they have been "had"
Propaganda has become so persuasive and all pervasive that unless some of the media decides things are not going according to their agenda, nothing will change in either the short or medium term.
The problem has never been really about economics, but about Control as far a the Tory Government is concerned, they run a poltical system that can rightly be described as
A Protection Racket on behalf of their Paymasters.

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[Woosh]

You may not trust the intelligence of the electorate but to vote is the only way.

 

[oldgroaner]

You may not trust the intelligence of the electorate but to vote is the only way.

No one I hope denies that!
The questions are only
how long will it be in coming?
And who will be worth voting for?

 

[Woosh]

how long will it be in coming?
well before June 2020, I hope

And who will be worth voting for?
Anyone who stands the best chance to defeat the tory candidates.

 

[oldtom]

The attitude of this UK government while we are members of the EU seems to be that we should be able to enjoy all the benefits we choose while ignoring or failing to implement elements of the 'club' rules that we don't like - try that at your local golf club or indeed any club or mutual society with a constitution or set of rules applicable to membership.

That same attitude persists over the act of leaving the EU - It rather looks like our government holds the view that we have some kind of right or entitlement to keep what we perceive are good things while unburdening ourselves of the parts we don't like, regardless of the 'club' rules or constitution.

That's certainly how it must appear to any dispassionate observer, I'm sure but it's exactly the kind of attitude displayed by tory government throughout my life. In a word, 'arrogance'!

Expressions such as 'Noblesse Oblige' or 'With great power, comes great responsibility' seem to have been lost during the 20th century, certainly as far as the British aristocracy, (old money) and the 'new money', modern multi-millionaires are concerned.

That arrogance which has led to the destruction of British engineering, coal mining, car and ship building with the accompanying worker protection provided by trade union membership, while creating huge numbers of unemployed, was only a means to an end of democratic socialism in the UK and the development of oligarchic government. The tories have long sough to bring that same dogma to bear on the rest of Europe and because they can't get their way at the EU, they don't want to be members any more.

Th EU has never been an enemy of the British people - that has always been the tory party. All the good things about the UK came from socialist government and the EU.

Tom

 

[oldtom]

By FOM I am assuming you mean full ordinary member.

Freedom of movement?

Tom

 

[Danidl]

Freedom of movement?

Tom

Sorry my bad

 

[oldgroaner]

The tories will be judged by how they handle brexit. If brexit fails, it will be their fault, nobody else's.

If only that was True, you know as well as I do that Tory Politicians have blamed the EU for their mistakes from day 1 when we joined the EU, aided by the media, and you can't seriously imagine that will change, can you?

If anything it will get worse than we see in the Mail, Telegraph and Express EVERY SINGLE DAY.