Brexit, for once some facts.

guerney

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guerney

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oyster

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Start the day with a laugh

Jacob Rees-Mogg hails report that ‘transforms UK trade policy’
The Brexit Opportunities minister says he backs calls to unilaterally accept foreign rules to free up trade

In the Torygraph.
Thank goodness that we now have the sovereign right to adopt foreign rules and have taken back control so we can go ahead with doing so.

Note: In many technical and medical areas, a huge proportion of the globe unilaterally adopts standards such as those issued by the USA's Food and Drugs Administration. There might be a delay in making changes when standards are updated but they more or less follow like a supranational Simon Says. 'twould be ridiculous for every country to set their own standards.
 

flecc

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China has a much bigger stake in fusion because of the amount they spend of imported oil and gas. Their achievements are usually ignored by Western media. I reckon they will achieve commercial fusion tokamaks well before the West.
True of fission too, for too long we ignored what they were doing, until we suddenly needed them to build reactors for us.

If anyone achieves practical fusion it will be them, but I have little faith in it being achieved ever.
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Woosh

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If anyone achieves practical fusion it will be them, but I have little faith in it being achieved ever.
I suppose the rule of thumb is we double the output and confinement time every decade or so.
At this rate, it should be there in about a century or two, not much time for the human species to evolve.
 

flecc

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I suppose the rule of thumb is we double the output and confinement time every decade or so.
At this rate, it should be there in about a century or two, not much time for the human species to evolve.
In two centuries time the effects of climate change will have evolved to a frightening degree if we haven't very drastically changed the way we live. Perhaps the people living then will accept their very different life, but I very much doubt we would accept it.

Fission of itself will not solve anything while we still maintain 8 billion or more humans with lifestyles largely similar to the present. We'll still be rushing headlong to disaster, just somewhat slower if we have fission.
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Nev

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Also, imagine that we end up with extremely cheap electricity. I foresee gross "waste" - such as no-one any longer caring about insulation. Heating every room of the house - and the patio - regardless.
I don't think we will ever see extremely cheap electricity even if fusion turns out to be extremely successful. Do you remember what they used to say about nuclear energy, it would be so cheap they would be virtually giving it away. This kind of rubbish comes from politicians who have no idea about engineering and don't understand what goes into the pricing of energy units.

Here are just a few thoughts on why electrical energy will never be really cheap. The over head cables and insulators that carry the electricity need replacing after about 40 years, the pylons need replacing after about 80 years. Maintenance is needed on the transformers and switchgear all the time. Weather causes breakdowns, people digging up roads go through underground cables. Loans have to be paid to investors that stump up the money for power stations.

I think over the long term and by that I mean in around a 100 years time provided WWIII hasn't happened then there is a reasonable chance fusion power together with re-newables will be how most electricity is produced around the world.

I think I would rather see the profits from Shell and BP going into research on something like this rather than given to share holders of those companies in dividends and an increase in share price (full disclosure I do hold shares in both these companies as they are part of some of the funds I invest in).
 
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Nev

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Ukraine criticises UK defence secretary for comparing Russia diplomacy to Nazi appeasement
Another diplomatic triumph for the Defence Secretary, who would have done better to stay on holiday if this is the quality of his contributions
It is both embarrassing and pathetic seeing our politicians trying to deflect the mess BJ has got himself into and trying desperately to show we are still relevant on the world stage after Brexit.

When we were in the EU we acted as a bridge between them and the USA, now that we are out both the USA and the EU realise we have very little influence anymore, but they are probably too polite to say this. Most of our papers wont admit this and the BBC are too scared of this government to say anything that might offend them.
 

oyster

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I don't think we will ever see extremely cheap electricity even if fusion turns out to be extremely successful.
Yes - I agree. But when "they" go on about limitless inexpensive power, I think it worth doing the thought experiment of what it would mean if it did come to pass - however unlikely.
 
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flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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I don't think we will ever see extremely cheap electricity even if fusion turns out to be extremely successful. Do you remember what they used to say about nuclear energy, it would be so cheap they would be virtually giving it away. This kind of rubbish comes from politicians who have no idea about engineering and don't understand what goes into the pricing of energy units.

Here are just a few thoughts on why electrical energy will never be really cheap. The over head cables and insulators that carry the electricity need replacing after about 40 years, the pylons need replacing after about 80 years. Maintenance is needed on the transformers and switchgear all the time. Weather causes breakdowns, people digging up roads go through underground cables. Loans have to be paid to investors that stump up the money for power stations.

I think over the long term and by that I mean in around a 100 years time provided WWIII hasn't happened then there is a reasonable chance fusion power together with re-newables will be how most electricity is produced around the world.

I think I would rather see the profits from Shell and BP going into research on something like this rather than given to share holders of those companies in dividends and an increase in share price (full disclosure I do hold shares in both these companies as they are part of some of the funds I invest in).
Your post contains a self fulfilling prophesy, the research you advocate makes certain electricity will drastically rise in price, fusion or no fusion.

I give you the drug companies as an example. They too sink vast sums into research that has very real risks of not producing anything worthwhile. As a result, when they finally do succeed on the odd occasion in making a worthwhile drug, the whole of that vast investment has to be recovered by pricing the drug very high.

Imagine it takes a hundred years of that immense investment from the biggest companies to achieve practical fusion. Then think of how much each unit of electricity will cost to recover all that long term money and the interest paid that it caused. Then on top of that the construction of hundreds of immense fusion plants. We might end up with only the investors who provided all that invested money being able to afford the electricity!
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oyster

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Your post contains a self fulfilling prophesy, the research you advocate makes certain electricity will drastically rise in price, fusion or no fusion.

I give you the drug companies as an example. They too sink vast sums into research that has very real risks of not producing anything worthwhile. As a result, when they finally do succeed on the odd occasion in making a worthwhile drug, the whole of that vast investment has to be recovered by pricing the drug very high.

Imagine it takes a hundred years of that immense investment from the biggest companies to achieve practical fusion. Then think of how much each unit of electricity will cost to recover all that long term money and the interest paid that it caused. Then on top of that the construction of hundreds of immense fusion plants. We might end up with only the investors who provided all that invested money being able to afford the electricity!
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Pharmaceutical companies also indulge in ending up as sole suppliers of medicines which might actually be old and cheap. They raise the prices many thousands of percent simply gouging.
 

jonathan.agnew

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Thanks for that. I didn’t realise there were so many charging points.

When I get my first electric car, most of my charging will be at home. I’ve got a garage in the garden with a large surface area south facing roof. The garage has a meter / supply separate to the house. I’m thinking it will be worth investing in solar panels to charge the car (s) when I make the switch.
I've been barking up this idiosyncratic tree (at least theoretically). A 4kw system (say 12 £150 panels - excluding parephernalia and a battery, but these have become much cheaper) apparently give 9kwh a day in the UK
That might give me 27 miles, which is nowhere near enough, but may be OK for local commuting etc
 

Woosh

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Then on top of that the construction of hundreds of immense fusion plants.
there is no reason to think that fusion plants are going to be immense. We found a few ways of making fusion happen, some methods need large installations like ICF or tokamak, some don't like lattice confinement fusion. The danger is in putting such powerful technology into the brain of an immature species.
 
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flecc

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there is no reason to think that fusion plants are going to be immense.
I instinctively feel that maintaining fusion will need substantial size. Whether that is so or not, it still means centrally generated distributed electricity rather than the trend to more local generation and the security that provides.

I'd rather all the money goes into solar PV panels and heat pumps everywhere, all sensibly local. Together with wind power and all the energy storage we are able to muster I think they're the best solutions.
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Danidl

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Your post contains a self fulfilling prophesy, the research you advocate makes certain electricity will drastically rise in price, fusion or no fusion.

I give you the drug companies as an example. They too sink vast sums into research that has very real risks of not producing anything worthwhile. As a result, when they finally do succeed on the odd occasion in making a worthwhile drug, the whole of that vast investment has to be recovered by pricing the drug very high.

Imagine it takes a hundred years of that immense investment from the biggest companies to achieve practical fusion. Then think of how much each unit of electricity will cost to recover all that long term money and the interest paid that it caused. Then on top of that the construction of hundreds of immense fusion plants. We might end up with only the investors who provided all that invested money being able to afford the electricity!
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Your argument would have validity had the research been done by those private companies, who had to pacify investors and shareholders, however it is being done in the main by State Agencies ,
. As it now pans out, cheap electrical energy is available from PV and Wind. These have moved out of the State Support Research phase and are now part of normal industrial development. The Chinese will make their money from prior investment in PV , which has brought individual panel costs down to 150 quid. Wind has moved upwards to the stage that even 90% Wind penetration into the Grid does not create instability. The only elements that are lagging is a wider scale international Power Grid and scalable energy storage. .. Neither of which require bluesky thinking ..just implementation.
 

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