Fascism returns to Spain

[Danidl]

Government-authorised thuggery and brutality seems to be the Spanish government's only answer to people wishing to express their wishes in a ballot.

The film footage which has emerged of police officers using weapons against fire officers trying to protect their fellow citizens so they can cast a vote is chilling. This represents exactly the resort to fascism Mike Killay drew to attention in the opening post of this thread.

Some see this as a necessary element of the maintenance of the rule of law but they are wrong. This is simply another manifestation of the rule of the most powerful over the weak and serves to demonstrate that Spain is not the democracy it would like the outside world to believe. I could easily go into a rant about this great democratic lie but I won't. Suffice to say that the rich Spanish powerbrokers' notion that they may continue to do as they please and get away with it just because they restored the monarchy in a purely puppet capacity has not worked. Fascism and corruption ruined Spain and those fascists have never really gone away.

Tom

The response of the Madrid government was \is very short sighted. What they should have said and done was to delegitimise the process by stating that 1. It was not a fair process, 2. did not have any standing and they would totally ignore it. 3. And then making slowly and consistently the case for retaining the status quo. By giving it the oxygen of publicity and martyrs with broken limbs they are increasing the problem and resentment.
Your point about the fascists still residing in the body politic, should give Brexit supporters cause to reconsider. The accomodations made in northern Ireland have had 20 years less to bed in and it takes little to inflame and fan old resentments

 

[Zlatan]

So you are in support of a small nation breaking away from a bigger organisation ? Sound familiar Tom ???

 

[oldtom]

It gives me no pleasure to note that the fears I expressed in post #4 have been realised already:

When demonstrations by the public are swiftly dealt with by paramilitary police, brutality by those forces is frequently employed and news agencies find they have great difficulty getting anywhere near the centre of the action.

This piece by 'The Canary' shows what has been witnessed today but his closing paragraphs headed, 'The ghost of fascism' may prove to be not only accurate but prophetic.'

today-ghost-fascism-stalked-catalonia-not-count-response-tweets

Tom

 

[oldtom]

It was probably too much to expect the BBC to report matters from Spain in an even-handed manner:

Mainstream media bias

We all know that if such scenes of repression were coming out of countries like Venezuela, Cuba or Bolivia the UK mainstream media would have been howling condemnation.


However because Spain is ruled by the hard-right neoliberal PP (the Spanish version of the Tory party) the British media have repeatedly attempted to downplay the levels of violence and the deliberate repression of democracy.


The BBC tried to sanitise the violence with a ludicrously Orwellian headline casting voters as "protesters" and using the term "rubber projectiles" instead of "rubber bullets".



Simply shameful!

Tom

 

[oldtom]

Even this morning's reporting by the BBC of yesterday's events in Catalonia appears extraordinarily one-sided, as if acting on behalf of the Madrid government.

Here is how the BBC describes the violence perpetrated by police:

How bad was the violence?

TV images showed Spanish police kicking would-be voters and pulling women out of polling stations by their hair.

Catalan medical officials said 844 people had been hurt in clashes, including 33 police. The majority had minor injuries or had suffered from anxiety attacks.

The BBC includes a comment from the Spanish PM:

The Spanish prime minister spoke of a "mockery" of democracy.

Well, at least he got that right but not in the way he meant it!

The BBC summarised yesterday's events like this from Tom Burridge:

Analysis: Tom Burridge, BBC News, Barcelona

Spain's complicated relationship with the region of Catalonia is headed for the unknown.

After violence by Spanish police, a declaration of independence by Catalonia's regional government seems more likely than ever before.

Given the chaotic nature of the vote, turnout and voting figures should be taken with a pinch of salt. On Monday the government in Madrid will hold talks with Spanish parties to discuss a response to the biggest political crisis this country has seen in decades.

The burning question for me is: Why did the Madrid government not simply allow the referendum? They could have organised the ballot and presented the case against secession in similar fashion to the Scottish referendum which, surprisingly to some, came out in favour of remaining within the UK.

I believe I know the answer to that but I'm happy for others to draw their own conclusions.

Tom

 

[oldtom]

Catalan referendum: Jeremy Corbyn urges Theresa May to intervene 'to find political solution to the crisis'

Now there's a piece of political opportunism!

Nonetheless, of course Corbyn is right and political leaders elsewhere have been quick to condemn the government-inspired violence by Spanish police.

This statement from a FO official is quite revealing and not in a good way!

A Foreign Office spokeswoman said: "The referendum is a matter for the Spanish government and people.

"We want to see Spanish law and the Spanish constitution respected and the rule of law upheld.

"Spain is a close ally and a good friend, whose strength and unity matters to us."

Now, let's see.....what's the name of the British Foreign Secretary?

Tom

 

[Woosh]

The burning question for me is: Why did the Madrid government not simply allow the referendum? They could have organised the ballot and presented the case against secession in similar fashion to the Scottish referendum which, surprisingly to some, came out in favour of remaining within the UK.

I think polls suggested that about 60% of Catalonians want independence.
You have some parallel to brexit, Catalonia is a net contributor to the rest of Spain for a very long time, so it's easy to preach the advantages of independence.

 

[oldtom]

Catalonia is a net contributor to the rest of Spain for a very long time, so it's easy to preach the advantages of independence.

London has been a nett contributor to the rest of the UK for a very long time so it's easy to preach........oh wait!

Tom

 

[Woosh]

London has been a nett contributor to the rest of the UK for a very long time so it's easy to preach........oh wait!

Tom

you can't compare the two. Catalonians wanted to secede from Spain for a very long time, you know very well why. The issue of contribution to Spain's national budget is one of the contributing factors but is important in swinging public opinion. If Scotland were a net contributor, Indyref might have been stopped in the same way.

 

[oldtom]

you can't compare the two. Catalonians wanted to secede from Spain for a very long time, you know very well why. The issue of contribution to Spain's national budget is one of the contributing factors but is important in swinging public opinion. If Scotland were a net contributor, Indyref may have been stopped in the same way.

Perhaps I'm missing something but I think your logic is flawed.

My point was that London, like Catalonia, supports the national economy more than many other parts of (1) England and Wales and (2) the UK as a whole.

Essentially, each reaps benefits which are then apportioned to the country as a whole as central government determines.

London voted to remain in the EU yet the UK government has decided that will not happen so London, particularly, will almost certainly lose a huge source of income once 'Brexit' is finally settled.

Given that such loss of income will have severe ramifications for the rest of the UK, how is the will of the people being served by the UK government's decision?

Who voted in the 2016 referendum to become poorer?

Scotland, as a nett beneficiary like many other provincial parts of the UK, is deemed irrelevant so can have all the plebiscites they want?

All of which begs this question: What if Sadiq Khan and his London administration determine they want to hold a referendum to determine if there is support for a UDI for London? Would we see scenes reminiscent of Catalonia and the miners' strike of the 1980s on the streets of the capital?

Tom

 

[Woosh]

All of which begs this question: What if Sadiq Khan and his London administration determine they want to hold a referendum to determine if there is support for a UDI for London? Would we see scenes reminiscent of Catalonia and the miners' strike of the 1980s on the streets of the capital?

Sadiq Khan would not want to call a referendum for London, for many reasons, the least reason is that London cannot exist as a country like Singapore. Its ethnic and cultural composition is not sufficiently distinguishable from the rest of the UK to power the push for UDI. Its economic power derives from the fact that it is chosen to be the capital city of the UK. If it were to be independent, it'll sink within days.

 

[mike killay]

Sadiq Khan would not want to call a referendum for London, for many reasons, the least reason is that London cannot exist as a country like Singapore. Its ethnic and cultural composition is not sufficiently distinguishable from the rest of the UK to power the push for UDI. Its economic power derives from the fact that it is chosen to be the capital city of the UK. If it were to be independent, it'll sink within days.

I agree.
Scotland or Catalonia could theoretically exist as separate countries.
London on the other hand could not. At the simplest level, where would it draw water? Vegetables and meat could only be raised in small quantities.
All the National structures from the Civil Service to large firms would probably find new HQs outside London.
The rail network could be reconfigured around Reading or Birmingham.
Once you look at it this way, you begin to wonder if London is truly supporting other regions.

Anyway, this is just theory compared to what has just happened in Spain.
OK for better or worse, the Spanish Government declared the referendum illegal, but did they really need to suppress it?
And why did the Spanish deputy prime minister declare that the Police (Actually para military GC) were acting in a professional manner when already evidence was mounting that this was not so.
She could easily have given orders for the GC to back off.

 

[Woosh]

Anyway, this is just theory compared to what has just happened in Spain.
OK for better or worse, the Spanish Government declared the referendum illegal, but did they really need to suppress it?

I think they have to. The referendum will inevitably lead to Catalonia leaving Spain. There is no practical solution besides handing over more power to the regional government. Catalonia is viable as a separate country.

 

[oldtom]

Sadiq Khan would not want to call a referendum for London, for many reasons, the least reason is that London cannot exist as a country like Singapore. Its ethnic and cultural composition is not sufficiently distinguishable from the rest of the UK to power the push for UDI. Its economic power derives from the fact that it is chosen to be the capital city of the UK. If it were to be independent, it'll sink within days.

I find your reasoning above over-simplistic. My UDI remark re London was pure conjecture but I disagree that if it were to occur, London would sink. Quite the reverse would occur I think; the rest of the UK would suffer far more than London. It is a huge improbable anyway so it's a position I don't mind climbing down from. Mike Killay's comments are partly correct in his first paragraph but wholly appropriate in his second paragraph.

The city state hypothesis is not without merit however and there are examples of successful city states for reference. Singapore, Monaco and the Vatican City are the obvious, independent ones but there are others such as HK, Dubai and our own (sic) Gibraltar.

The list can be extended quite a bit with some imaginative thinking to include some unlikely examples where a single city houses the vast majority of the population of a country and is in effect the country.

This kind of postulation, however, starts to impinge on the 'Brexit' thread so I don't really want to compromise what for the moment remains two very distinct discussions.

I imagine inevitably though that the position of Catalonia as a constituent member of the EU in due course will arise. Large trading blocs are going to be difficult to avoid in the foreseeable future, the way the world is changing but I don't foresee any great difficulty with a separate Spanish state gaining membership in addition to Spain proper, as it were.

Having spent a bit of time in Malta, I was quite pleased to discover that the island, independent and without any natural resources to speak of, is an EU member state. I suppose it is essentially being subsidised by the EU community and I like that kind of charitable/socialist attitude. The people are not spongers and most who can work are able to find gainful employment, lots in the tourist industry. Many of their young people need to move elsewhere though to find suitable outlets for their educational qualifications and abilities.

Tom

 

[anotherkiwi]

Some facts:

Spain's prime minister is delusional and incompetent and he clings to his parliamentary immunity because he is up to his neck in corruption scandals. His government is corrupt and incompetent, they have a tax on solar panels (!!!) in 2017, they are a minority government at the heel of big business and applying austerity measures to a people when 27% of the young are well educated and unemployed. I could go on.

The Guardia Civil is the same one that was the police force of Franco, same training methods, same over armed and over zealous men. They look and play like 2nd division when compared to the independent Basque police force however...

A minority of the Catalan people want independence (according to pre referendum polls). Only 40% of the voting population fought its way to the urns on Sunday and 90% of those voted for independence, run the numbers. If the referendum had been allowed I would guess a 40-60 split like last time they voted, it is much more clear cut than Scotland.

 

[flecc]

Sadiq Khan would not want to call a referendum for London, for many reasons, the least reason is that London cannot exist as a country like Singapore. Its ethnic and cultural composition is not sufficiently distinguishable from the rest of the UK to power the push for UDI. Its economic power derives from the fact that it is chosen to be the capital city of the UK. If it were to be independent, it'll sink within days.

Sadiq would not want to call a referendum since he knows it would be illegal, just as the Catalan one was and is. The Spanish government should face them down and they were right to try to stop the referendum. They should have been much tougher in arresting all those who organised and backed it, including the Catalan leaders who were guilty of treason. That carries the death penalty in Britain.

But London is not so different a case, many in London have declared that they would like independence for similar reasons. We are fed up with the way central government take most of what we earn in cash and kind to give to other regions while leaving us with some of the most deprived areas in the country.

They took away our successful industries, only for us to see many of them fail elsewhere. Then they took away our commerce to move it to the regions, and then they took many of our civil service functions to place them elsewhere. Now they take way most of the 56 billions the City earns annually.

Each time we prove our worth by recovering and finding new ways to make the money, only to see it squandered in other regions. So we understand the disgruntled Catalans and have some sympathy, but we don't condone civil disorder as a solution.
.

 

[Zlatan]

Some facts:

Spain's prime minister is delusional and incompetent and he clings to his parliamentary immunity because he is up to his neck in corruption scandals. His government is corrupt and incompetent, they have a tax on solar panels (!!!) in 2017, they are a minority government at the heel of big business and applying austerity measures to a people when 27% of the young are well educated and unemployed. I could go on.

The Guardia Civil is the same one that was the police force of Franco, same training methods, same over armed and over zealous men. They look and play like 2nd division when compared to the independent Basque police force however...

A minority of the Catalan people want independence (according to pre referendum polls). Only 40% of the voting population fought its way to the urns on Sunday and 90% of those voted for independence, run the numbers. If the referendum had been allowed I would guess a 40-60 split like last time they voted, it is much more clear cut than Scotland.

Err. I said most of this on Brexit thread and got told by quite a few ( including you ?? I,m not sure) it was irrelevant to EU debate. It is not. The EU know exactly what is going on and in a way have encouraged it. ( massive investment in Spain's infrastructure even tho knowing full well money was not going where it should)
Business is being oppressed throughout Spain because of corruption. Town officials take back handers for both private and business planning. Its a disgrace and its why I pulled my business out...EU did nothing, are doing nothing..will do nothing even tho its this very practice keeping many in poverty and preventing real growth in Spain. I know of at least 5 other businesses similar to mine which left Spain for same reason.( Yacht charter)
Southern France is only marginally better. ( After my disaster in BVI we are now back in Greece...hopefully BVI will have a rebirth tho..but it depends on insurance situation..will they cover for another hurricane?)

 

[Steve A]

Have the EU said anything. Wonder why they have remained so quiet hmmmm.

 

[flecc]

London on the other hand could not. At the simplest level, where would it draw water? Vegetables and meat could only be raised in small quantities.

We'd buy them of course.

All the National structures from the Civil Service to large firms would probably find new HQs outside London.

It's this sort of regional ignorance about our city that annoys us in London so much. You are not just years behind the facts but many decades.

See this post

Most of the remaining London large business is international and doesn't depend on the rest of the UK. Internationally is where we earn much of our money. The civil service we have left is the core stuff that has to remain close to the centre of government, and we'd happily lose both. You have them in Wales by all means, and we'll throw in the royal family as well. One of them is the Prince of Wales after all, and we have no Prince of London.
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[mike killay]

We'd buy them of course.



It's this sort of regional ignorance about our city that annoys us in London so much. You are not just years behind the facts but many decades.

See this post

Most of the remaining London large business is international and doesn't depend on the rest of the UK. Internationally is where we earn much of our money. The civil service we have left is the core stuff that has to remain close to the centre of government, and we'd happily lose both. You have them in Wales by all means, and we'll throw in the royal family as well. One of them is the Prince of Wales after all, and we have no Prince of London.
.
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Flecc,
I suppose that it is the usual love/hate relationship.
I have lost count of the number of times that I have promoted a London venue for National conferences of various charities and other organisations that I have belonged to in the past.
All the Motorways and railways lead to London. The city has the ability and capacity to easily absorb a few hundred people for a few days.
I will never forget how exhausted I was arriving home after a conference somewhere near Crewe.
In a sense, I suppose that many of us are Londoners, it's just that we don't live there.
Must throw a spanner in the works though.
It is only the English that think that Charles is the |Prince of Wales