Much is agreed, but your comments on the Quando and Twist are very unfair and don't acknowledge what I've posted.
The last thing I want to be is unfair. OK I was tongue in cheek with my comment about the skateboard but you acknowledge it's not a like for like comparison earlier (Modeo vs Ferrrari - although I dont think the Quando has the better styling when compared to a Twist).
The Quando is a lot heavier than the Twist Lite, in part because it's a folder. Exactly the same motor/battery/elctronics combination in the Torq weigh less at 24 kilos, but are compromised there by being geared up 40% for all out speed.
The Twist Lite is about 21 kg, the Comfort 23 kg. I got my weight for the Quando from the UK retailers webpage which listed it as just over 20 kg from memory - similar to the Twist lite. I can only go by what I read as I don't own a Quando.
Edit: Reviewing that retailers website today I see I accidentally misread the details and its actually only the bike without the battery which is just over 20 kg, the whole thing is actually as you write in your other post flecc. Sorry for the mistake flecc, I assumed reading the first line that bicycle meant just that, given that the bike normally has a battery as part of it and it wasn't listed as bike minus battery. It's only after reading further down in the next columb that its apparent the battery weight is additional to this.
That same retailer lists the range as 15 - 20 miles which I assume is on moderately undulating, normal terrain. If they performed a range comparison on steep hills, the relative inefficiency would show for sure. Also bear in mind that (from what I've read) the Quando has a 10 Ah 37 V battery or 370 Wh capacity as AtoB like to call them, the original Twist by comparison is only 156 Wh at under half the capacity (the voltage is actually pretty immaterial as it's these Watt Hours that are a true indication of the battery storage capacity). A 36 Volt battery doesn't make a bike go any faster just as a larger fuel tank wont make a car go faster. That extra electricity used by hub motor bikes has to be paid for by the user and goes to prove my point about which is more efficient. You may claim that the Quando design offers superior motor efficiency in your reply to 50cycles but all I'm convinced of is that its more powerful and consequently uses far more battery power. In this day and age with environmental concerns, every little step that can reasonably be taken to reduce energy consumption and improve efficiency should be taken.
In some respects I think you are in denial and refusing to acknowledge what I've posted because it doesn't fit what you want to be true. If I ride the Twist with the trailer and load to the tip, I have to pedal all the time and make a fair input of work on the hills. On the Quando I don't need to do anything if I don't want to until the final 12% hill to home when I do a bit of work.
How do I deny being in denial without looking like I'm confirming your claim
The 'want' I have in this whole situation is for people to be fully aware of the comparitive disadvantages of hub motors over drive through the gears motors. It annoys me when I see companies boasting in advertising about a bikes hill climbing ability when I know that if they really want to do it properly, they'd adopt a revised design without a hub motor - sort of like the Boron petrol marketing point I made earlier 'spinning' a weakness. I hate to see spin triumph over design.
Having written that, I haven't done any speed uphill testing with my Twist and have no reason to doubt what you've written about it's performance, especially considering the power the Quando would use under hill climbing situations is far more than 250 Watts or even what the Twist would use from the battery under the same circumstances. Clearly this area of the 250 Watts power limit is the area open to 'interpretation' and in my eyes bikes with significantly higher peak power outputs over twice this are getting around their inefficiency with brute power and this isn't something to be encouraged or even supported. You're right in that in some regards I'm an engineering purist (I guess maintaining aircraft for 11.5 years tends to foster that in a person) but we differ in opinion over whether it is possible that power through the gears drives will become mainstream and leave hub motors behind in all but the cheapest and nastiest bikes.
I've always made it clear that I agree that a drive through chain system is superior overall, and one with the Quando's power would be very much better than that bike. But I'm a realist, it isn't going to happen anytime within a reasonable future.
As long as customers choose to accept or have apathy towards hub motor designs it wont. I just wish some of that marketing and promotional spending actually went on improving bikes with a better drive system through the gears. I believe it will and can happen in a very short time. Now I see that the Gazelle Easy Glide has been developed (also by a small and adaptable company), I'm hoping that will get the snowball rolling. That looks to be a truely high quality bike and it's not that much dearer than the old Twist Comfort.
