Grenfell Tower

[Woosh]

flecc pointed out some time ago that the fire could have propagated through cooker hood fume extraction ducts.
In fact, most catastrophic fires are not due to just one cause but a concurrence of more than one mistake.
Years ago, one of my clients had a printing firm. A faulty PSU on a PC sitting under a desk set fire to the desk, the desk set fire to the window frame etc.. you can guess the rest. The chance that a faulty computer PSU setting fire to a desk is very small. Nobody could imagine that window frames could catch fire etc. so the building did not have sprinklers.

 

[Zlatan]

flecc pointed out some time ago that the fire could have propagated through cooker hood fume extraction ducts.
In fact, most catastrophic fires are not due to just one cause but a concurrence of more than one mistake.
Years ago, one of my clients had a printing firm. A faulty PSU on a PC sitting under a desk set fire to the desk, the desk set fire to the window frame etc.. you can guess the rest. The chance that a faulty computer PSU setting fire to a desk is very small. Nobody could imagine that window frames could catch fire etc. so the building did not have sprinklers.

Agreed, but should we still be buying fridges utilising isobutane, fridges we inevitably neglect that sit there year after year probably corroding and eventually leaking inflamable gas around switch gear ???
Even before this event explosions and fires resulting from this are well documented. Personally I,d rather go back to Freon.

 

[Danidl]

Thanks.
Any fire needs a source of ignition , fuel and oxygen. The isobutane provides initial fuel for fire to start with some as yet unknown ignition point.( spark)
Only after fire has started will the foam be problematic. A spark would not ignite the foam. The amount of gas is fairly irrelevant, imagine size of fire you could start with cigarette lighter. Other issue about Butane is it is heavier than air, and will congregate in base of fridge. ( I have encountered this on boats running LPG ,where propane builds up overtime inn bilges and then bilge pump clicks in, igniting the gas. This is far more of a problem than with petrol vapour.( but can happen with both)
I,m not blaming fridge but in this case it seems it transpired to line up Tillsons Swiss cheese holes, it seems to me however that almost any internal fire with any substantial amount of fuel could have triggered the turn of events.
There are plenty of substances in households which make viable fuels.
A report I read suggested designers had assumed high intensity fires ( plenty of fuel) would only be encountered on outside of building. ( ie car fire,wheelie bin etc etc) I wonder if this was flawed thinking ???
PS. I,m only assuming Isobutane is heavier than air ? Either way its dangerous to use in fridges that will eventually leak near ignition points.

Butane is heavier than air so will flow downhill. But R134 is also very dangerous, if it is subject to heat as it decomposes into I believe phosgene gas. There are safety warnings about smoking cigarettes close to it, not the fire risk but the poison risk.
But I take your point that even a minute amount of a fuel can ignite.

 

[oldtom]

Ben Okri, a man with a gift, has written this:

daily-vid-ben-okri-grenfell-tower-fire-poem

Tom

 

[soundwave]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40434741

now that is a fkn joke !

 

[Zlatan]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40434741

now that is a fkn joke !

Afraid it isn't Soundwave. Once temperature is above a certain point all trace of human remains disappears. Its going to be more of an investigation for missing people than actually determining who has died. Yes, its awful but I don't think , on this issue, government are covering anything up. Just being very cautious..but the more cynical could easily see a conspiracy ??

 

[Croxden]

Afraid it isn't Soundwave. Once temperature is above a certain point all trace of human remains disappears. Its going to be more of an investigation for missing people than actually determining who has died. Yes, its awful but I don't think , on this issue, government are covering anything up. Just being very cautious..but the more cynical could easily see a conspiracy ??

It isn't like the government does such things is it?

 

[oldtom]

Social media has lots of very upset commentators this morning as we begin to understand that this new alliance of far-right extremists means no change to tory dogma in their class war against the underprivileged.



"And they cheered.

They cheered the fact that they voted to continue to make Public Sector workers worse off year on year. A week ago they were praising the firefighters, ambulance crews and police following the recent tragedies up and down the country. Firemen who had carried dead children out of Grenfell Tower and then watched someone else plummet 20 floors onto concrete. Paramedics who had to zip up body bags of those blown to pieces in Manchester and who tried and failed to stop people bleeding to death on London Bridge. The policemen and women at the scenes of these horrific crimes, as scared and upset as those they were helping. Today, these amazing people are being condemned to at least two more years of capped wages. Last week's hollow words a distant memory. Well done, all of you who voted Conservative. You allowed this to happen. Teachers and TAs, nurses and doctors, prison officers, council staff and emergency service workers are already at breaking point. They have had enough. Now say "if you don't like it, leave!" Go on, I dare you!Leave to what? A job at the bottom of the ladder after working their way up it? A job with no security and a zero hours contract? Or no job at all?"We're all in this together!" Said Dodgy Dave. Like f**k are we. You pricks award yourself handsome pay rises way above inflation year after year. You claim stupid amounts as perks while cutting disability benefits and killing people. The bankers and big business bosses are allowed to continue earning individual bonuses that would pay for a dozen nurses for a year, but that's ok isn't it? You're alright aren't you?

I'm alright, Jack. F**k the rest of you! It's the Conservative way.

And they cheered."

Tom

 

[oldtom]

After the knee-jerk reaction by the tory government to the Grenfell Tower disaster, this is how the tory government plans to address the matters arising from tower block safety inspections:



Tom

 

[Zlatan]

It isn't like the government does such things is it?

Yes, they do. They are using the uncertainty to hide real figures , putting oweness on Fire Service to prove an occupant died in flat is wrong, but its what is happening.
It seems there are no figures for occupancy but I,m fairly sure some body could calculate a reasonable figure...ie check occupancy of similar buildings at that time of day...but no Fire Service have to sift through every room...and not finding remains proves nothing...doesn't prove nobody died...just means remains could have been incinerated.
We,ll never know real figure.

 

[oldtom]

The investigation into the Grenfell Tower disaster hasn't got off to a good start:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40446579

Tom

 

[flecc]

I say give all concerned a chance, the ex-residents in particular are far too impatient and demanding impossible things. For example they want the judge's inquiry widened to include criminal matters, but it simply cannot do that since the police are carrying out that separate investigation and have already said they will not hesitate to prosecute where appropriate. If the judge finds additional information of value during the inquiry he will no doubt pass that on to the police.

Thorough police investigations and thorough public inquiries take a long time, as does detailed forensic examination of large quantities of material.

Which would everyone prefer, the correct conclusions and actions eventually or quick and inaccurate ones sooner?
.

 

[oldtom]

Harry Leslie Smith, Labour Party dinosaur, recently made this comment about the reporting of the casualty figures from Grenfell Tower:

'Even when Titanic sank, White Star was able to provide a list of the dead within days but at Grenfell, the govt tries to obscure numbers of dead.'

Tom

 

[Woosh]

oldtom, I know where you stand on the political spectrum but your last post was blatantly OTT.
The police do what they can to identify the victims so please, do refrain from trying to make out that our police is incompetent or worse, politically motivated to minimize the number of casualties.
There are still 23 flats where the police could not find human remains and could not contact anyone who lived there. The police presume that they all died although there is a chance that they did not. They already are counted in the 79.

 

[oldtom]

oldtom, I know where you stand on the political spectrum but your last post was blatantly OTT.

What is OTT about reporting the words of an old man who makes a fair point? Perhaps you think Harry Leslie Smith is wrong when he says that White Star had a list drawn up within days.

I believe it is wrong that none of the agencies involved in the Grenfell Tower tragedy has been able to publish a list of all known residents, (ignoring guests and illegals), so that everyone can deduce an approximate number of those unaccounted for. If it should be the case that the dead and missing total 79, fine! As far as I can see though, the known survivors + 79 do not come anywhere near the 600+ believed to be residents of Grenfell Tower.

It is now 16 days since the inferno and the media has decided our interests are best served by reporting on how well the new political alliance shoring up an incompetent government is working, so why has no list been published which might confirm the published numbers - not names - just numbers?

Apart from that, what have my political leanings got to do with my concerns over numbers which many believe to be spurious?

Tom

 

[Woosh]

The number 600 residents is a guestimate, I could have said 300 or 400 for 106 flats.
With London being a 24 hours a day city, in the summer, people were on holiday, go out to work or for other reasons. Who can guess the number who are not in? I could say 100 or 200.
Do you know how many walked out?
I would guess the number of fatalities is not far of the current police estimate.
Why don't you trust our police?

 

[Mal69]

We should learn from the past, the past has shown that politics and police have worked together and have covered up many crimes, in the last thirty years that has ranged from the Hillsborough disaster and miners strikes of the eighties where police acted on the orders of Thatcher and against the democratic process, to more recent times when the massive paedophile investigation just got nowhere.

Now your ordinary officer on the beat is generally a good guy, most police officers are, I just think political influence can be a problem at the top of the chain of command, certain past events make me wary of trusting the top brass and these guys cover their tracks really well, our press has never done a good enough job at tackling some of them too, no surprise there.

Back to my first statement, not saying there is a cover up, just saying my trust isn't 100% when it comes to the best interests of the British people being served by our politicians and top brass at the police force.

 

[oldtom]

Why don't you trust our police?

You seem to be developing a habit of asking really stupid questions 'Woosh'. In this instance, I note the comments from 'Mal69' and I don't think there is anything I need add.

Your faith in the government, indeed all four pillars of society plus the fourth estate seems boundless whereas I question every word and every deed because history informs us (usually much later) that, outside of family, any trust we have in the rest is usually misplaced.

Tom

 

[Woosh]

the police knows everyone is watching their every move and press release.
why should anyone trust you more than me? and you and me more than the police?

 

[oldtom]

the police knows everyone is watching their every move and press release.
why should anyone trust you more than me? and you and me more than the police?

You're still doing it 'Woosh'! That is another stupid question and it would be pointless for me to answer it.

Returning to my concerns over the arithmetic surrounding the Grenfell incident, I am not alone it seems. Today, the web blogger Mike Sivier who pens his views under the banner, 'Vox Political', asks essentially the same questions that concern me.

is-the-establishment-admitting-it-will-lie-to-us-over-grenfell-tower

I find it quite incredible that you continue your 'faith ministry' on this subject, particularly in the same week that 6 people have been charged over the Hillsborough disaster 28 years ago, 4 of them ex-police officers.

People need to ask questions of the government and their agents; that is how we progress society for the better. If you choose to simply believe all the BS delivered to you by various politicians, their media wing and their financial backers every single day without let-up, that is your choice. Just remember that some of us do speak out, ask questions and challenge these, often corrupt, individuals. We may make mistakes from time to time but the man who never made a mistake never made anything!

Tom