Long Term Test Outcome - eZee battery

[Conal]

Ezee battery age

My battery refs are
XH370-10J
DC37.0V
S/N JGJGBJ100152, translating the code, J=O. ABC = 123
07072(does the J here = 0 as in 20th?) = may be 20th July 2007; and production no 152
Does this make my battery one of the new improved ones or one of the old "soon need to replace" phylion batteries (please Flecc?)
Conal

 

[flecc]

Yes, you've translated correctly Conal. Your battery is not the latest type, but is from a period when they were continuously being improved. The outcomes for these could be variable, and much depends on the usage and territory ridden.

Are you experiencing any problems?
.

 

[Jeanette Morgan]

My two Lithium batteries translate as 06/08/2007 and 26/08/2007 are these from the newer ones?

Regards
Jeanette

 

[flecc]

Not the one I had on test Jeanette which is a larger capacity, but at a later stage of improvement of the 10 Ah ones.

HarryB reports his November replacement battery as being very much better than his old one from the first half of the year. I don't know if it's possible to know exactly how much they improved month by month, but a new internal battery management system (BMS) was brought in during this upgrading period and that will have helped them to perform and last better.
.

 

[Conal]

Ezee July 07 battery

Flecc
I have experienced pretty consistant output; about 17 miles on a relatively flat route of six miles at full assist, and 20 miles at setting 4/5 on a hilly route.
All factors being the same, What do you think I woud achieve for the two same routes with the latest battery?
Conal

 

[flecc]

My experience is 40% more for this 4.6 kilo Li-ion battery Conal, so it would probably be similar for you.

Bear in mind though that the Li-polymer battery is going to be the chosen one at present, and I don't know the capacity of that. Best wait for the release so we'll know what size it is for certain.
.

 

[Conal]

Ezee improved battery

Thanks Flecc,
it looks like my next battery will give real improvements and enough oomph to get me from home to work on one charge each day, if I have 90 minutes to spare! Its great to see the results of real fieldwork.
Conal

 

[coops]

Many thanks for your endurance flecc, the results are much appreciated and long-awaited! .

Good to hear of the improved performance; I very much hope the production will be of a consistently good quality too. For me a 14Ah capacity battery would be really useful, so if the chosen polymer turns out to be lower capacity, around the present 10Ah say, then I hope that if the phylion proves itself then Ezee will introduce it.

After all, at 4.6kg weight the phylion is comparable to (or maybe a bit less than) the Ezee NiMH 9Ah which are fine, but with over 50% more capacity .

I almost forgot, could you tell us the nominal operating voltage (or range) for the battery you tested flecc? Was it around 39.6V?

I hope you get back to spinning and recover the fitness loss: your 'sack of spuds' reference just reminded me - I've been trying to do similar and have finally managed to lose some weight (about 7kg in 6mths, though thats just the start...) although as you'd have guessed mostly while riding my MTB but I still have the Torq for longer/faster trips: with more weight loss & pedalling on that I'll hope to get even more range from a bigger battery.

Stuart.

 

[flecc]

Yes, the voltage was the same Stuart, but it was maintained much better under load. In fact for up to about 150 charges it was impossible to detect any deterioration of voltage under load. The amber started coming on a little earlier when under load as in climbing only as it went towards 200 charges, indicating some voltage drop, though the power has been largely maintained.
.

 

[coops]

Ah, by 'same' do you mean the same voltage as the previous Ezee phylion LiMn but with little or no drop under load then flecc?

I was getting confused with the 39.6V typical 'working' voltage of some LifePO4 12s 3.3V cellpacks, though I guess the 10s 3.7V (nominal) phylion packs operating voltage wouldn't be much lower than that, say 38-39V, for much of each charge if voltage drop is minimal?

Stuart.

 

[flecc]

Yes, same voltage as the previous one Stuart, just not the chemical tiring they suffered under sustained load. These Li-ion voltages tend to be much more nominal than the NiMh ones. The lithium ones seem to gradually continuously drop under loads that they can't sustain, where NiMh drop sharply initially to a fixed point according to load and charge state and then hold that position, hence them not causing low voltage cutouts.

This newer battery that I tested never got to cut-out when the load was excessive, just driving to motor stall point, just like NiMh.
.

 

[coops]

Thanks for affirming the voltage characteristics flecc.

I hope we'll have some more information on the selected Li-ion polymer battery soon aswell... a bit like buses this, isn't it? - 2 or 3 arriving at the same time!

Stuart.

 

[ITSPETEINIT]

Long Term battery test.

This is for anyone who would care to impart their knowledge/opinion to me.
I have 4 Lithium-ion Batteries made by the Phylion Battery Company and supplied with eZee Bikes;

Their details are as follows:………
No: 1 - S/N JFJEAF 100003 Supplied 19TH July 2006 with a new eZee Torq: the code suggests the battery was manufactured 16th May 2006 and was No. 1 off the production line that day.

No: 2 –S/N JGJAAB 100001 Supplied 25th May 2007 with a new Sprint 7: the code suggests the battery was manufactured 12th January 2007 and was No.1 off the production line that day.

No: 3 – S/N JGJAAAB 100030 Supplied 14th June 2007 with a new Sprint 7: the code suggests the battery was manufactured 12th January 2007 and was No.30 off the production line that day.

No: 4 – S/N JGJEAB 100108 Supplied 7th August 2007 (as a spare battery): the code suggests the battery was manufactured 12th May 2007 and was No. 108 off the production line that day.

The batteries are shared between the 2 Sprints that we run and have run about :
No.1 …………………………………..916 miles (< 500 miles on a Torq)
No.2………………………………… 516miles
No.3………………………………….. 516miles
No.4………………………………….. 268 miles

The range of these batts. (Nos. 1,2 & 3) is seriously depleted.
No 1 achieved virtually 30 miles per charge when new, after it had been conditioned. That has now reduced to 16miles and the Red Light comes on on hills of about 6%/500 mtrs after being fully charged and in use for 6 miles. It now cuts out when stressed at this level.

Nos. 2 & 3 would run for 20 miles when first used (first used by me that is – the discrepancy between the date manufactured and used by myself suggests someone other than me had used the batteries before I acquired them, possibly at the Presteigne Event in 2007).
They now run for 10 or 11 miles and both cut out when stressed on a 6% hill/500 mtrs

No. 4 will possibly cover 28 miles on a full charge.

I was unable to “take advantage” of Mr. Ching’s kind offer in December 2007 to replace any battery that had not given appropriate performance because the exchange had to be effected by 50Cyles.

However there is another option that I would wish to consider.
1) Would it be possible to get more ‘power’ from these batteries, especially on hills of 6% or 7% if two were connected in PARALLEL and carried in a pannier and suitably connected to the controller? I have noticed the comparative ‘amazing’ performance of a fully charged new or not so new battery when freshly connected at the foot of a serious gradient (say not > 8%).
2) What would be the effect on motor performance/life if they were connected in SERIES and how would one do that?

Peter

 

[flecc]

The first three batteries were all from the batches that suffered earlier failure and cutting out Peter, exactly as you've experienced. Battery number four is from a period in which far better results are being experienced currently, and I don't know of any failures on those.

Pairing batteries in parallel without protection can lead to failure and cross charging with a potential for damage, and that's especially true for older and mismatched batteries. If the feed wires from each battery are run through suitable Schottky diodes, they protect the batteries from damage.

Running them in series isn't practical since that doubles the voltage, and the eZee controller is limited to a maximum of 44 volts, plus or minus 0.5 volts. Any voltage over that causes a protection cutout.
.

 

[JamesC]

Long term battery test

Flecc – many thanks for your gruelling work to put the new Phylion battery through its paces. It is good news that ezee bikes have good battery options for the future.

Mr Ching – thank you for details on the translation of battery manufacturing codes.

Below are some figures comparing Sept 2006 batteries with Aug/Sept 2007, with the added complication that the later pair of batteries have been wired as a parallel pair throughout their working life.


Torq purchased in January 2007, complete with additional battery, both Lithium-ion. Bike has been retained in “Restricted” mode throughout its life, favouring battery range over outright speed.

Battery No 1
S/N JFJIAI 100115 – Battery manufactured on 19 September 2006

Battery No 2
S/N JFJIAD 100038 – Battery manufactured on 14 September 2006

Usage between January and October 2007 was 1000 miles, shared between the 2 batteries, so 500 miles each.

Initial range in January was 28 miles from each battery on flat terrain.
By October, this was down to 12 miles for Battery 1 and 14 miles for Battery 2, needing to carry both batteries for a 25 mile ride.

(After learning from this forum that others were suffering with short life from the first wave of Litthium batteries, purchased a NiMH battery in October just before supplies dried up completely)

Continued to use the 2 Lithiums, carrying the reserve in the saddle bag to obtain a modest mileage, eventually using the NiMH which was consistently good for 22-24 miles and safe against cutout on hills.

However, I always hankered to get back to the high performance shown by the Lithium batteries in the early stages of their life.

Hope was restored in December 2007 and I exchanged Battery No 1 for a new Battery No 3 under Mr.Ching’s kind offer.

Battery No 3
S/N JGJHAF 100222 – Battery manufactured on 16 August 2007

In wanting to achieve more range from the bike, and being optimistic that battery life could only be improved by sharing the load between 2 batteries wired in parallel, Battery No 4 was purchased from ebikes.ca complete with ezee battery bag that attaches to the carrier.
Details of modification are described here

Battery No 4
S/N JGJIBA 100017 – Battery manufactured on 21 September 2007

Mods to the bike were done in January 2008 such that batteries 3 and 4 have never been used singly, except for each having 2 full discharges to condition them at the beginning.

By using the batteries wired as a pair, each provides only half of the motor current demand on serious hills which is much kinder on the battery chemistry.

After a ride, the 2 batteries are charged individually with 2 chargers, and the mains power required for each battery is compared and logged.

After 6 months use, they remain within 10Wh of each other on each charge, showing that the load is still being shared 50/50.

Batteries 3 and 4 achieved the same 28 miles as individuals at the outset.

My rides with the double battery rarely exceed 40 miles, at which point the voltage will be dipping into orange on hills.

I think that the batteries have changed very little between February and July 2008, sharing 1200 miles during this period.


Having just come back from France, we were cycling as 2 couples using 1x ezee Torq, 1x ProConnect, 2x mid range hybrid bikes.

The Torq was great throughout, and extremely well behaved riding alongside the regular bikes at slow speed on steep hills.

Previously, with iffy single Lithium batteries, this would have been impossible, resulting in certain cut-out.

In fairness, low speed hill climbing is perfect territory for the ProConnect enabling the weakest rider to climb lithely ahead of the field.


I am confident that the 10Ah Phylion batteries that were manufactured in August / September 2007 are superior to the poor era around September 2006. My understanding is that the difference between these 2 eras lies in the Battery Management System electronics and the cell quality.

I have yet to grasp exactly what the various options are now, and where the differences lie.

For the moment, I continue to be very happy with the pair of Phylions made Aug/Sept 2007 that have done 6 months / 1200 miles. The next 6 months will be the most interesting period.

James

 

[flecc]

Thanks James. The big contrast between the batteries of those two eras match mine and others experiences. I'm sure you would have had good results even using the late 2007 batteries in isolation, but using in parallel is certainly far easier on them as you say.

Similarly the move to higher capacities like 14 Ah or even the true 10 Ah of better high discharge rates will bring benefits from reduced chemical stress.
.

 

[flecc]

Thanks for that up to date information Scott. As far as I'm aware that sleep mode capability is unique to this Panasonic unit battery and it's a very valuable feature since it enables owing two batteries without risk of loss of battery life if one is out of use for an extended period.

That capacity measure is a useful feature.

I've always had a high regard for Panasonic's consumer batteries and buy mine from a specialist supplier in preference to the more widely known brands.
.

 

[markgwalters]

Stick with the Ezee Torq?

Hello....this is the first time I have used a forum so hopefully I am clicking the right buttons!

About 2 years ago I bought an Ezee Torq, which after a few teething problems was generally very impressed with it for many months on a regular daily commute of 9 flat miles either way. It was de-restricted and I charged it at work and home.

After a few months the battery was replaced under warranty with XH370-10J S/N: JFJIAD100025, even though 50 cycles told me they could not find a fault with the original. After a few weeks this was worse than the original and let me down and became unusable. I commute in all weathers and assumed the controller must have been damaged in the wet, having seen how badly sealed it is aginst the elements. Reading on this forum it looks like the most likely cause is another faulty battery?

I loved the Torq when it was working and reliable, but the experience with the second battery made me question it's relaiblity and given the price of a replacement battery the bike has languished in the shed unused for over a year!

It is only through researching an alternative pedelec that is discovered the problems are not unique to my bike.

When are the "new" batteries available and how much are they likely to cost?

Should I buy a new battery for the Torq or cut my losses and invest in a Kalkoff with Panasonic system and the 2 year guarantee?

Reliability is a must for my regular daily commute.

Many thanks in anticipation of any useful advice

 

[flecc]

Hello Mark, welcome to the forum.

Your batteries were definitely from the bad period as you've discovered, but all those made in the later months of 2007 and onwards are greatly improved and there are many commuting daily with them. There's no reason to give up on the Torq as it was reliable for you before, only a battery needed to get you back on the road again.

I believe the current Phylion and Sanyo batteries are available at present, but I don't know when the latest Li-polymer battery is. Probably best to contact Cyclepoint and ask them the supply position now to get the up to date position.

Phone: 01273 710784

Email contact
.

 

[markgwalters]

Torq/Pro-Connect

Hi "Flecc"

Many thanks for your advice, it is very much appreciated.

Since I posted I have been looking at forum topics and discovered the battery is likely to cost £350!

Looking at other threads it would appear that you own and ride a Pro-connect which is probably what I would consider as a replacement if indeed I decide to replace! I intend to get back into commuting everyday rain, hail or shine and don't mind investing if the Kalkoff is a better bike.(I am concerned about the waterproofing which is virtually non-existent on the Torq)

The 2 year guarantee on the battery is very appealling and I guess the build quality is probably superior to the Ezee.

My confidence has been severely dented with the Torq. I know this is probably deviating from the topic of this thread, but, briefly do you consider the Pro-Connect a better and potentially more reliable bike?

Best regards

Mark

PS not sure what to do if the thread "wanders" so apologies.