Long Term Test Outcome - eZee battery

[flecc]

No, I don't own a Pro Connect Mark, or any Kalkhoff, but I like both the Pro Connect and the Agattu and I would definitely own one if I had the space to put it.

My current bikes are both drastic conversions of eZee bikes:

The Q bike

The T bike

As this thread concerns an eZee battery test for the manufacturer, it's not really an appropriate place for me to answer your main question, so for diplomacy's sake I'll send you a PM.
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[robert44]

Kalkhoff Battery Capacity

Hi
Top Tip: For anyone interested if you hold the Pansonic Battery level button for 5 seconds it will automatically read the amps and let you know what capacity you have left in the battery. Very Smart, and should the battery not be used for 6 months it does not negative discharge, it will simply go to sleep until woken up by the charger.

Best Regards

Scott

Is this any different from the usual battery capacity indication? i.e. 1-5 leds on the battery case.
Good to know about the "sleep" mode - thanks for the info.

 

[Patsy]

Battery Problem

Hi

Can anyone help my ecobike has gone very slow how do you know when the battery is going. It kicks in on pedal assistance but not much and there does not seem as much power in the throttle power. Would the battery going be the cause of the above.

Has anyone any ideas

Patsy

 

[california]

current (no pun intended) battery replacements for Ezee

Flecc and some others in this forum seem almost to be electrical engineers, and I admire them for it but I lack both the time and the expertise to improvise battery-replacement solutions.
I'll need a replacement for my (US) Sprint before too long, and all the informed talk about it here only baffles me.

I have an NimH battery in my Ezee Sprint, still in good condition after a year and a half of use; about 40 miles per week. Eventually I must replace it, of course, and I learned to my dismay that the NimH Ezee batteries are no longer offered; one is welcome to purchase a lithium battery for a shocking 450 USD, that is, the price of a decent conventional bicycle, complete.

When it comes time to replace my battery, must I spend so much - or more, when the time comes and the vendors of these have recognized that the owners of the bikes have no choice but to pay what's demanded, the alternative being to struggle with the 60-pound contraption unaided. Must one be a very clever electrician to get around this rip-off, as we say here.
Chas.

 

[flecc]

Flecc and some others in this forum seem almost to be electrical engineers, and I admire them for it but I lack both the time and the expertise to improvise battery-replacement solutions.
I'll need a replacement for my (US) Sprint before too long, and all the informed talk about it here only baffles me.

I have an NimH battery in my Ezee Sprint, still in good condition after a year and a half of use; about 40 miles per week. Eventually I must replace it, of course, and I learned to my dismay that the NimH Ezee batteries are no longer offered; one is welcome to purchase a lithium battery for a shocking 450 USD, that is, the price of a decent conventional bicycle, complete.

When it comes time to replace my battery, must I spend so much - or more, when the time comes and the vendors of these have recognized that the owners of the bikes have no choice but to pay what's demanded, the alternative being to struggle with the 60-pound contraption unaided. Must one be a very clever electrician to get around this rip-off, as we say here.
Chas.

Sorry I didn't see your query before Chas.

The battery manufacturers no longer make reasonably priced high discharge NiMh D size cells now that most e-bikes have gone to lithium, so it isn't possible for the e-bike manufacturers to offer NiMh batteries. Some like eZee would like to if they could, and their Wai Won Ching has searched everywhere for suitably priced cells, without success.

Lithium battery prices are not a rip-off by the bike companies, the prices are mainly due to the economic mess that has caused the US dollar and GB pound to collapse in value against other currencies. They won't improve until the economic situation improves, which hopefully will start to happen by next year.

We are even worse affected here in the UK, our new eZee battery being £395 now which is $647 at current rates, so as an eZee owner getting near to needing a battery, I'm a bit jealous of your situation!

It is possible to use one of the alternatives, but there are disadvantages. The LiFePO4 type are still very expensive and have to be mounted elsewhere with a bag or box devised to hold them, plus rigging suitable connectors. The cheaper lead-acid type are extremely heavy and also have the same mounting disadvantages.
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[california]

Good heavens, don't apologize Flecc. Is Flecc a consortium or just one very energetic, clever and resourceful individual? Many thanks for taking the time to reply.

It is a sad state of affairs: my NimH battery is altogether satisfactory, so in view of what you've said, I'll just run it into the ground and hope they've come up with an affordable solution by the time it dies. I gather from what you say that they are not rebuildable. I've been gradually weaning myself off the ebike and riding a conventional bike, but with age and slightly dicky knees, I may need assistance later. There are decent ebikes selling here for comparatively low prices now, so that a new one may be little more than what a battery will come to cost before long.

Isn't it disappointing, though, that such a progressive idea as the electric-assist bicycle has fallen to capitalistic market factors in such a way that scrapping and replacement is more practical than maintenance/ refurbishment. Everything, including good intentions, is grist for the relentless mill, so to speak.

Never mind; I'm just in one of my moods.

Thanks again,
Chas.

 

[joab]

Have a look here:
Renaissance Bicycle Company

36V 8Ah NiCad, 5C Max Rate for 240$ that should do the job, disadvantage heavy 6kg.

These guys give a very good service.

Regards,
Jo

 

[flecc]

Chas, the NiCad that Joab mentions will do the job with a slightly shorter range than before, but you will have to make up a way of mounting it and rig up connections. However you'll notice that they are low stock and some types discontinued, and that's because the NiCad cells are no longer made since the cadmium they use is environmentally damaging. Therefore it's a one-off solution, but it could tide you over until prices of current types improve.

Hopefully your NiMh will keep you going ok, I've got a working eZee NiMh which is over three years old now.
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[jeronimo479]

Thanks for your lazy effort ;-)

I tried to not peddle when I first got my Torq so I could compare battery life vs. distances over time, and found it nearly impossible to keep my feet idle.

I have gone through 4 chargers and 4 batteries now. My last charger started burning up the internal fuse. I thought at first it physically broke because of bumps in the road, so I replaced it. But three fuses later, the smoke finally came out and the charger is now dead too.

I was going to wait till next January and see if any new strides in battery technology have been made. I'm especially excited about EEStor and their supposed ultra cap. If it makes it to bikes, I'll certainly buy one just to see how it works. I'm also waiting to see if LiFePO4 takes hold with a form factor that can fit in my existing case.

Wayne

 

[flecc]

I've had no charger troubles at all Wayne, the NiMh and two Li-ion chargers, all HP types and supplied with the eZee bikes have performed faultlessly. There was one small batch of the HP chargers that failed though a faulty zener diode, but otherwise I've known of no troubles with them, and HP (HighPower) are China's largest manufacturer of this type of charger. Many other e-bike companies use them, including Wisper now.

I'm also at li-ion battery number four, but of course it's this same test battery that I'm still using at well over a year and a half now. The first three Li-ion ones were all 2006 production and lasted between 3 and 10 months each.

I think you'll have to wait a very long time for ultracapacitors, they're likely to more about promise that ever being useful to us. The best hope currently is LiFePO4, but the suppliers that eZee have been trying for these ever since late 2006 have to date failed to deliver reliable production. Other e-bike companies have found the same so far, no battery company yet delivering production reliability at an acceptable price.
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[mikescave]

Ezee and (Phylion) Battery

Hi Guys,
Not sure if this is the right thread to use but here goes...

To recap; I have an eZee Liv bought June2007 - 50 Cycles. First battery failed Sep 2008 - new one purchased, Cyclepoint
Charger then failed Mar 2009 - new one purchased, Cyclepoint.
Thus making running costs to date about £30 per month!

Now the second battery is deteriorating - yellow light showing after about 5 miles, which is exactly the way the first battery behaved as it began to fail.
What should I do? Can i easily fit a different 36v battery from a cheaper (than £415 delivered, now from Onbike) source?
Else I'm going to scrap the bike and buy a Powabyke - at least they seem to have dealer service

Regards to all

Mike

 

[fishingpaul]

Hi mike,have you considered lifepo4,ping ping has a 36v 15ah lifepo4 at $460 = about£277 including delivery,the new powabykes do not seem very popular maybe the short range does not help with sales.

 

[mikescave]

Thanks for this Paul

have you considered lifepo4,ping ping has a 36v 15ah lifepo4 at $460 = about£277 including delivery,the new powabykes do not seem very popular maybe the short range does not help with sales.



Now uncertain what to do. Have looked at the posts concerning these batteries - are they powerful enough to give the same sort of performance as the Phylion?

Regards

Mike

 

[flecc]

It's best to use the 20 Ah from Ping to give the same sort of performance on the eZee motors, smaller will work but will restrict the power to some degree and will not last quite as long since the smaller vells will be stressed more. None of the Ping types will fit inside the eZee case since lithium iron phosphate cells are larger for a given performance, so you'll have to rig another way to carry it and also arrange a new set of connections to the wires under the battery platform.
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[WaiWonChing]

Chief eZee Operator

Hi,

eZee makes a very modest and humble margin on the bike and the battery, given the obligation we have to make with regard to warranty on an expandible item like battery it is at the very edge of keeping up with competition.

One have to know the cost of distributing products in any country like in UK or in USA and the margins the business have to keep to be viable business. Is it a rip-off, I don't really know, because I don't have the total costing for an importer , distributor, and retailer, and the import tax and GST or VAT. I know for sure the UK government make more money than me in each and every sale of eZee product in UK.

With regard to battery life, from my experience over the years, high amps output would definitely reduce the battery life more than low or moderate demand, therefore weaker power bikes would have a better battery life. Or else have a bigger battery pack. So :-
eZee is introducing now on our new shipments an extra secondary battery parallel connection. So people who have a battery say up to 60 or 70 % capacity and experience frequent cut-out due to the voltage drop when pulling a high load, could continue to use this battery together with a new one. In simple arithmetics old battery with 6 Ah + new battery with 10 Ah, you have 16 Ah on the bike. Having 2 batteries share the load would extend the life of the battery considerably. To support this we have now various accessories to hold the secondary battery, pannier bags or a special rear carrier. The connection for the secondary battery is made with Anderson pole connectors. Onbike Ltd would have a shipment arriving in DEC.

Next we have also launched LiFePO4 battery, which is 37V8Ah, with cylindrical 26650 cells. This now currrently available only in a new casing that goes into a specially design rear carrier ( flat box ) and primarily as a secondary battery in parallel. Not to worry about different voltages and battery chemistry, we have checked and worked out all the details, the BMS in each pack will take care of everything. These cells dimension could not be incorporated in to our current casing placed behind the seat tube. New casing would be made in 2010 for the same. Also the price of this is the same as the currently Li+polymer pack at 37V10Ah. In the same casing we have 37V14 Ah available now.

As a note, we have been testing LiFePO4 from many different sources for the past 3 years, the LiFePO4 we have now is made in China, but the Cathode material is from Phostec Canada one of the pioneers in this technology. Also LiFePO4 has the disadvantage of both lower energy gravimetic and volumetric density than Li+polymer.

Also I would like inform all here that we have terminated the distributorship with Cyclepoint and any purchase made with them from 6th Nov2009 would not be supported with manufacturer's warranty. Onbike Ltd is the sole UK distributor for eZee now.

W W Ching

 

[flecc]

Many thanks for all that interesting information Wai Won, particularly on the new battery developments.

The Phylion made Li-ion battery you supplied for testing nearly two years ago is still fine for normal use, but as you know I also use the eZee bike for towing a very large trailer with heavy loads in a hilly area and other difficult load carrying. In the toughest circumstances it can now cut out if used continuously on full throttle over a succession of hills, but its not the final cutout that the early batteries suffered. Just switching off and on again resets it and it happily completes a stiff climb with slight throttle reduction, so its still good for many more months of normal use.

To do some of the most difficult work I've now bought the 14 Ah battery in addition, but I'm not bothering with wiring it in parallel despite the benefits. I find it performs well as it it is and I need the carrier and pannier space left clear for load carrying.
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[mikescave]

Ezee and (Phylion) Battery

Thanks for that flecc, just slightly more reassuring. Like you I am in a hilly area and much of my regular return journey is predominately uphill.

My paranoia is that I've been here before re signs of battery deterioration so I still think I need another battery, supplementary if not in parallel. The principle issue is that I am not prepared to spend £400 every year on a new batteries. That makes a nonsense of the electric bike economics.

How do others view the economics or is it just 'electric love'?
I really do like my bike but the relationship is getting strained!

Mike

 

[flecc]

My paranoia is that I've been here before re signs of battery deterioration so I still think I need another battery, supplementary if not in parallel. The principle issue is that I am not prepared to spend £400 every year on a new batteries. That makes a nonsense of the electric bike economics.

It may depend on how many charges Mike. If your mileage means you charge every weekday when commuting, allowing for holidays etc you would probably do about 440 charges in two years. That Phylion battery that I've been testing isn't the current eZee one which is a polymer one from a different source. However, that test one has done 339 charges to date and I'd guess it will be good for perhaps 400. Hopefully the polymer one will be similar. As Wai Won says though, running two in parallel would extend the working life quite a lot, especially in a hilly area.
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[mikescave]

It may depend on how many charges Mike. If your mileage means you charge every weekday when commuting, allowing for holidays etc you would probably do about 440 charges in two years. That Phylion battery that I've been testing isn't the current eZee one which is a polymer one from a different source. However, that test one has done 339 charges to date and I'd guess it will be good for perhaps 400. Hopefully the polymer one will be similar. As Wai Won says though, running two in parallel would extend the working life quite a lot, especially in a hilly area.


Now you've got me wondering Flecc.

I was led to believe that these batteries could/should be charged after every journey and the frequency was not an issue. I hadn't considered the total number of charge cycles a battery might be expected to survive. If this is a problem should I change my charging pattern? For example, today I made two return journeys and charged the battery after each...are you saying that the battery should be discharged more and perhaps less frequently to extend it's life?
Would this be any different with a lead/acid battery?
Your thoughts and expertise apreciated.
Regards
Mike

 

[flecc]

Sorry, I might have mislead you Mike, the life rating is for full or near full charges.

Part charges count for less in a rough ratio to the amount of each charge, though it doesn't necessarily equate exactly. For example, the perfectly ordinary batteries installed in satellites like those which handle our phone and TV signals last 10 years of daily part charges from sunlight, over 3600 in all. Their secret is that they are hugely over specified for capacity and only one seventh of the content is used in each daily dark phase. You'd need a battery of at least 40 to 70 Ah to do the same, but you can see from the example how part charges do not have the same destructive effect as full charges.

Actually, the full secret of very long battery life is using only a fraction of the content in the centre of the charge content band, in other words only ever charging to 80% of capacity at most and never discharging below 20% of capacity, taking the daily bit or bits out of the middle. The Toyota Prius does that and it's battery is guaranteed for 8 years.
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