Unjustified Posting Attacks

From time to time I seem to come under attack from new members entering this forum on some of the more complex subjects, and am often accused of saying things I haven't said. This often arises because their imperfect understanding of the subject in question leads them to misunderstand what has been posted, or to argue a false case.

On the last occasion I was targeted on three subjects, all on a false basis, and as usual there followed the tiresome business of my denial and the counterattack, sometimes descending into their making personal comments.

To avoid this unpleasantness in future as much as possible, I'm entering threads on some of those complex subjects so that I can refer such critics direct to them. There they can see what I do say on the subject rather than what they thought I'd said, and also learn much more of the many aspects of the subject they'd previously failed to understand.

The first is on the use of Drive through Gear systems on e-bikes, where I think quite a few members might be surprised at how many aspects of this subject they'd scarcely considered or even knew existed.

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Edited August 7, 200718 yr by flecc

From time to time I seem to come under attack from new members entering this forum on some of the more complex subjects, and am often accused of saying things I haven't said. This often arises because their imperfect understanding of the subject in question leads them to misunderstand what has been posted, or to argue a false case.

 

Don't worry, Flecc, most of us still love you! :o

Seriously, though, while I applaud and support your idea to post some static threads, you won't eliminate the problem. The anonymity of a handle on a forum gives some people (who may or may not have their own inadequacy issues in the real world ) carte blanche to really have a go with no factual basis to go on. If you talk with authority and dignity, as you do, that winds them up even more.

I do some writing and podcasting for a US website, and I have had some really vile invective directed at me - all unjustified. I normally chalk it down to 'Internet Rage' and ignore. It still hurts, though.

David.

Thanks David, that's absolutely true, and I've previously suffered this in other forums. US forums I avoid like the plague because of this problem.

I realise it won't solve the problem, but the objective is to avoid my having to answer directly by just saying the minimum and giving the link.

That way at least some of the critics will think better regarding pursuing it, and any that do pursue it will perhaps be either better informed or too bemused to be effective opponents.

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I must take some responsibility as I've not been policing the forum as much while working on Pedelecs V2.

Can I draw everyones attention to the Forum T&C's, particularly:

Be nice to each other - no personal attacks on other users.

We've done pretty well so far to avoid the descent into flaming wars and i'd like to keep it that way!

Flecc - Now is probably a good time as any to create a "Technical" forum. Is it ok to move the threads there ?

 

Flecc - Now is probably a good time as any to create a "Technical" forum. Is it ok to move the threads there ?

Yes, definitely Russ, that would be ideal.

Hopefully you will be able to keep that first long one intact though, as I didn't want any part of the complete coverage to be missed from that important subject.

The other ones intended are very much shorter, you'll be pleased to hear!

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I agree with David, and the pointless attacks are very sad, but would add (I see flecc has already said as much while I wrote this) that the proposal to try to reduce their number & impact is constructive: the threads may act as a deterrent in the first place, aswell as a clear reference for any who insist on attacking with neither facts nor reason. Besides, I'm not about to question the wisdom of flecc's proposal!

I know I've probably given flecc & others rather a hard time with some of my many questions (I hope you've never taken any of them to be an attack flecc, they're largely due to my wish to know more but lack of understanding as you say :o); this also gives an opportunity for those so inclined to gain more insight into more technical issues which may significantly improve performance of ebikes, which still have some considerable room for development in my view, and likely answer many questions some of us already have about such points, before we ask them, or think twice before not asking .

Stuart.

Edited August 7, 200718 yr by coops

Flecc - Now is probably a good time as any to create a "Technical" forum. Is it ok to move the threads there ?

The new section is a good idea Russ! Would it also be a good idea to "sticky" any of flecc's proposed threads which are put in the technical forum, so that "critics" can be very easily referred to them as necessary?

Stuart.

Edited August 7, 200718 yr by coops

 

I know I've probably given flecc & others rather a hard time with some of my many questions (I hope you've never taken any of them to be an attack flecc, they're largely due to my wish to know more but lack of understanding

 

Stuart.

There's never been any time when you have in any way posted anything that could be seen as an attack, nor have any of your posts been anything other than welcome in my opinion Stuart.

I'm only speaking of the tiny number who come in here and often target me from the very beginning. One early in the forum history started by attacking anything I said in more than half his earliest posts, often completely irrational in what he said, and then maintained some hostility for quite a while.

But it's more recently with the growth of the forum that it's naturally showing signs of increasing, so alleviation by avoiding or delaying confrontation possibilities before the event is much better than trying to patch a problem later.

I don't want to waste time dealing with their attacks, but at the same time I don't want to let their misinformation stand as a permanent slur on me or as misleading information for other visitors to the site to go away with.

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Edited August 7, 200718 yr by flecc

The new section is a good idea Russ! Would it also be a good idea to "sticky" any of flecc's proposed threads which are put in the technical forum, so that "critics" can be very easily referred to them as necessary?

 

Stuart.

Depends how you all would like to use it?! Would you prefer to let it be a free-for-all or would you like the technical forum to be structured with threads on specific topics? For example, all battery discussion under one topic etc..

Respect!

I have noticed these personal jibes at Flecc and I must say they are very badly expressed - I find it difficult to understand their meaning.

I have the greatest respect for Flecc and his (I don't think he will agree - that's not a criticism of him: that's because he's modest) encyclopaedic knowledge on the subject of Electric Motors, Electric Bikes and Ordinary Bikes.

I cannot imagine a Forum, this Forum, without Flecc's participation and dedication. I cannot guess where he finds the time to do all this typing and I cringe for him having to repeat himself so many times. (I too am probably guilty of asking questions that have already been well and truly answered). The Forum postings and subjects have grown to massive (by my standards) proportions and putting these standard topics' answers into a 'Sticky' is a very good idea. Anyone who wants to dig deeper or seek clarification can refer to the 'Sticky', even copy and paste the relevant words BUT NOT post their questions on the Sticky site - that may be barred by the Forum Rules in any case.

Peter

PS Copy and paste is good plus a reference to the 'sticky' posting: there can then be no doubt about what was said on the point or the subject.

How to use it

Depends how you all would like to use it?! Would you prefer to let it be a free-for-all or would you like the technical forum to be structured with threads on specific topics? For example, all battery discussion under one topic etc..

Yes! e.g. all battery discussion under one topic.

The first idea that popped into my head was that good organisation would save a lot of postings and answers to those postings.

It seems to me that Flecc has pinned down many topics in lucid and detailed statements spread throughout the Forum. Each individual statement(s) (Subject) could be the subject of a thread to which questions and answers could be posted in the technical Forum BUT Flecc's main statement on the subject and any further statement by him on that subject could be isolated in a Sticky entitled "Flecc's Lore" and the posting to it will be Flecc's Statement identified by the subject title.

There might be a way of adding to that subject's statement by Flecc posting an addendum which will appear immediately below the previous posting by him on the particular subject (thereby keeping all the relevant information tidily together).

Peter

The anonymity of a handle on a forum gives some people (who may or may not have their own inadequacy issues in the real world )

Makes me want to suggest the "Small Member" Forum: the forum for personal attacks and metaphysical mechanics

(notice the pun, as if it's not obvious )

flecc i don't get the time now to do more than scan the forum but felt i must post on this,as you know i have been known to differ with your opinions but never your technical knowledge,i have noticed the attacks and although you don't need it i must say that with a choice of technical knowledge i would take yours every time.

keep the good work up

mike

Thanks Mike, I always value this support from forum members.

As Russ has said, we need to keep the forum the pleasant and friendly place that it's always been to date, and hopefully this measure will help maintain that.

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Makes me want to suggest the "Small Member" Forum: the forum for personal attacks and metaphysical mechanics

 

(notice the pun, as if it's not obvious )

Got it immediately, trust me to!

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While I've never had cause to strongly disagree with you Flecc, and doubt that I ever will, I think it's a case of you can't tell everybody what they want to hear all the time. While personal attacks can never be justified the law of averages says that you will receive more than anyone else because of the sheer amount of correspondence you enter into. On the other hand you should also receive the most praise and it pleases me to see that this is indeed the case.

A more structured technical forum may well reduce the amount of repeat questions, I don't think anything will eliminate them though and often when a new member asks a question, even if it is a repeat, it breaks the ice and encourages correspondence with that member which I feel has more value than someone simply finding what they want and anonymously going on their way.

In spite of the unjustified attacks this is certainly the most intelligent and friendly forums that I've had the pleasure of participating in, the vast majority of posts are polite and demonstrate good use of the English language, and that is especially true of posts from members to whom English is not a first language.

Edited August 7, 200718 yr by Ian

...A more structured technical forum may well reduce the amount of repeat questions, I don't think anything will eliminate them though and often when a new member asks a question, even if it is a repeat, it breaks the ice and encourages correspondence with that member which I feel has more value than someone simply finding what they want and anonymously going on their way.

I like the informal nature of this forum where people do not feel put off by asking a question. I've seen on many forums people get attacked for not doing a search or trawling through FAQs before they post. Here, they have a choice.

One thing that is missing from this form of contact is body language so I think it is good practice to imagine you are face to face with the other person and how you would speak to them!

 

often when a new member asks a question, even if it is a repeat, it breaks the ice and encourages correspondence with that member which I feel has more value than someone simply finding what they want and anonymously going on their way.

 

I certainly agree with that Ian, and it's why I so often type the same information in different ways for users as they enter.

Unfortunately though, it's doing that which often causes the problem!

What happens is that the tailored posting is an incomplete coverage of the subject, leaving the opening for attack. For example in the Battery Meter attack on what I was supposed to have said, it was my failure to mention the existence of consumption meters like the WattsUp when criticising battery meters on bikes that prompted the poster to say he was surprised that I couldn't see the benefit of them, when I course I wasn't posting about consumption meters.

It's for that sort of person that I intend the main use of link referrals, so they can learn the real situation before arguing further.

For others I'll continue to explain separately and individually, unless the typing load is unduly arduous.

Amusingly, you can see how even this thread posting of mine can cause a misunderstanding of my purpose and intention.

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Edited August 7, 200718 yr by flecc

And to add fuel to the fire (!), I've added the second technical subject in the series:

Battery Meters

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One thing that is missing from this form of contact is body language so I think it is good practice to imagine you are face to face with the other person and how you would speak to them!

That's a good point Russ, it is much easier to unintentionally offend with purely written communication where there is no soft tone or gesture to take the edge off unintentionally harsh words.

nigel

To russ and flecc sometimes i find it difficult to follow written instructions such as throttle mods and handlebar grips would it be possibile to show some pictures to help with understanding how to do job:D thanks nigel.

I do put some photos in my website articles Nigel, but it isn't practical to do it all with photos as so many people still have dial up services and the pages take for ever to load for them. Also some things need someone to do the operation being illustrated while the photo is taken, and I can't usually organise that though I do sometimes do a juggling act as in this photo where I took the shot at one arms length while stretching the frame:

http://users.tinyworld.co.uk/flecc/images/footmethodtubechange.jpg

Not easy though!

In this site I illustrate with photos more often than any other user I think, but I try to limit it a bit for the same reasons, causing dial-up and slow broadband problems.

Also, I think a photo sequence in a thread could be irritating for some as it could take up a whole web page.

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One thing that is missing from this form of contact is body language so I think it is good practice to imagine you are face to face with the other person and how you would speak to them!

Although that's generally true Russ, and I prefer to respond in friendly and humourous ways, there's the fact that reasonable people respond to reasonable treatment, but unreasonable people don't.

The sort I'm speaking of don't respond.

My earliest example in this forum who I mentioned before as targeting me with more then half his posts is an example. As it was the first time it happened in this forum, I responded politely and patiently to each and every occasion of sniping and criticism, but as usual it was taken as a sign of weakness and that type of posting continued for a long time.

Eventually I wasn't going to put up with it any more, and it was then that I very publicly and aggressively bit his head off and he finally moderated his behaviour.

I believe that when someone is very clearly and unmistakably coming in behaving in this way that it's best nipped in the bud rather than allowed to develop and poison more.

The last person who prompted this thread was not only clearly targeting me with sniping on three subjects in two simultaneous threads. Seeing the nature of his approach, I checked his very few postings since recently joining before I responded and could see that they were mainly combative and sometimes with an aggressive edge. It was clear to me that only one kind of response was suitable, a firm one.

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