Where is "Off road" ?

[tillson]

Watch out for anyone wearing a bobble hat and red socks and carrying a hiking stick, they have been known to attack! Geoff

Yes, we used to call them Saga Louts.

I used to drive many green lanes on both a motor bike and by Land Rover. A few years ago no one used to mind very much and problems were few. The police would sometimes be called by a peevish Saga Lout, but because everything was legal, they would usually end up with egg on their faces and that would be about all that did happen. Green Lane driving was a very pleasant activity.

Of course, this wasn't enough for some people and they wanted to push it a bit more. These people were of the opinion that the police were either not interested or didn't understand the law. So came the arrival of the non-compliant motor cycle, a full off roader. At first not much changed, but as they have become more prevalent, so have accidents involving non-compliant vehicles.

This has attracted much unwanted attention from the authorities. The status of some roads has been changed and few years ago, the last government were looking to change the status of all green lanes. The police in Derbyshire occasionally have a purge and will issue fixed penalty notices or warnings that if caught again, the bike or 4x4 vehicle will be confiscated. Because the status of some of these roads is not clear, it is a risk to continue using them.

It's now not worth the trouble and potential conflict to go Green Lane driving. All because certain people couldn't stay within the law and brought unwanted attention upon themselves and everyone else.

I can see certain parallels between the above situation and the ebike world. No one minds, cares or even understands much about non-compliant bikes at the moment and their use will continue that way for a while, maybe a long time. There will reach a point though where they become a problem. That is inevitable. It is at this point that the ebike world will become the focus of unwanted attention and we will be legislated against more tightly. The police will start to take an interest and we will ALL suffer for the actions of a few.

The day that this happens can only be brought forward by the likes of Banbury Frank blatantly passing his 20 odd MPH 1.5KW mopeds off as bicycles. And also by people showing off on this forum with regards to how fast the motor on their bike can take them.

This isn't about being a do-gooder, some sort of self appointed bicycle policeman or wanting to spoil people's fun. It is about preserving the generous freedoms we all enjoy as ebikers and not letting a selfish few spoil it for the majority.

 

[banbury frank]

Hi tillson

Thanks For everybody's help in this matter

All our bikes and kits are now sold limited to 15 Mph

With a warning if you remove the restriction on the controller to use on a public road it is now a motor vehicle and need to be registered and be taxed and insured and wear a crash helmet and you need the appropriate driving license

But it is still a free country so you can go to a car showroom and buy a car or motorbike that will do 150 MPH + or buy one off our fast bikes

At the end off the day it is just words the last thing the car salesmen is going to do is tell you the penalties for speeding



Frank

 

[flecc]

As for your comment flecc it is not bitterness its jsut boredom this constant speed knocking and legality issue its getting incredibly tedious and tiresome there has been that many discussions on this topic over the last 2 months or so you could start its own fan club or child board, and, then whenever someone posts their comment in favour they are shot down being accused of law breakers, spoiling it for the rest blah blah blah, that then opens another legal discussion. From reading posts it looks like there many people on here that have not had much to do with the Police and the law in terms of warnings cautions etc. If thats wrong then i apologise for the assumption, but if im right that is whats fuelling this circle of discussion. Can people really not think of anything more interesting to talk about? The Police have other things to think about whether your bike is doing a couple of MPH more than it should be.

Cycling has somewhat of hoity stigma attached to it around here and it seems like this stereotype is reinforced more than its challenged on this site.

I think this will slow down once the e-bike legal position is made clear Jon since this has been the stimulant to discussion ever since Britain made a mess of the legislation change in 2003. The European countries got it right first time and don't seem to have the same discussions about the law, it being entirely clear where they stand.

I doubt if the issue of police action comes into it, since there have been many acknowledgements posted that police action is very unlikely. There is probably a greater threat posed by postings about the use of very illegal bikes on the road since the DfT are very aware of this site, and I think that prompts some of the posts on this subject since none of us want more legislation. They wanted more speed and more power in Germany and eventually they got it. What they also got with it was registration, number plates and compulsory insurance to use those. So the threat is clear, if we aren't a bit cautious we could end up with the whole package on all e-bikes here, knowing how OTT our government can be about passing new laws.

 

[tillson]

Hi tillson

Thanks For everybody's help in this matter

All our bikes and kits are now sold limited to 15 Mph

With a warning if you remove the restriction on the controller to use on a public road it is now a motor vehicle and need to be registered and be taxed and insured and wear a crash helmet and you need the appropriate driving license

But it is still a free country so you can go to a car showroom and buy a car or motorbike that will do 150 MPH + or buy one off our fast bikes

At the end off the day it is just words the last thing the car salesmen is going to do is tell you the penalties for speeding



Frank

Frank

Cars are different to your bikes. Cars are type approved and as long as they have the appropriate insurance, licence, VEL etc in place, you can legally use one regardless of it's power or speed that it is capable of achieving.

Our ebikes are different, we have to comply with certain standards and constraints to enjoy the easements that we have.

This advert, is an attempt to sell a moped disguised as a bicycle. When I look at your advert, all I can see is 1500 Watts, 28 MPH, speed. Even if run in 250 Watt mode, I would suggest that even the existence of the turbo button makes it non-compliant with ebike legislation. The whole thrust of your advert is aimed at the illegal aspects of your bikes.

You are not doing anyone on here any favours by selling these things.

 

[eTim]

By the sounds of it all the doo gooders on here have legal bikes so therefore you have no issues, i also get the impression most people on here are on the frail side so again wouldnt be using "off road" or anything that would shake them too much plus a lot of your bikes wouldnt take it.

Ahem, I am approaching mid-40's, does that make me old, will I consider I am old in another 20 years time? I think not! I am capable of riding (indeed do ride) non-powered bikes, being frail and old is only one reason for owning an ebike, there are many more reasons.

They like the idea of throttle and pedal you oldies may not be bothered but your not the future of this industry the kids are like it or not thats how it is. And yes the light motorbike is quicker than a ebike last longer with fuel and can refuel quicker etc but thats not the point and never will be for some just like the vinyl vs cd thing.

Who are these 'kids' that could afford to buy an ebike in the first place? The kids I see riding bikes are on non-powered bikes or illegaly obtained and run mini motos or crappy trail motorbikes. ebikes and age go hand in hand based on the amount of money you earn/have spare, those 'kids' will grow older.

From reading posts it looks like there many people on here that have not had much to do with the Police and the law in terms of warnings cautions etc. If thats wrong then i apologise for the assumption, but if im right that is whats fuelling this circle of discussion.

I'd better not admit to the things I used to do in my 'youth' or the odd nights I've spent in police cells, or the time I've spent in the military, just cos we ride ebikes does not mean we are do-gooders and never break/bend the rules or are not schooled in the 'University of Life'. I find the thread interesting because it highlights some of the very grey legal aspects of the laws of trespass, the things private individuals do in attempt to stop you from legitimately using public rights of way and highlights aspects of ebike laws. It also highlights various aspects of legislation that are either changing or in the pipeline.

I think we all know that the risk of being caught is extremely low, we all know the police have better things to do, blah blah, but it doesn't make this subject any less interesting

 

[Alex728]

I'm still fairly young, most of my friends are only in their 20s and 30s and TBH I feel there is a misconception about actual attitudes of youth.

the vast majority of my generation who want mopeds, motorbikes, cars or any other sort of faster vehicle know exactly where to get them from, the costs and obligations involved and in reality usually obey the bulk of laws with regard to motor vehicles even if they disagree with them.

In some cases its still begrudgingly and due to ANPR and stop checks which are clearly profiling younger road users being more common in this area than 20 years ago - rather than a genuine willing acceptance of the laws - but they obey.

Many know exactly what an e-bike is, and that for a road legal one you still have to pedal it and its only about 250W. Friends of mine who have shown interest are already keen cyclists and don't want to go at 30mph, they want to go at 15mph with their panniers loaded up with shopping etc with less effort than a push bike and less environmental impact than a car. What puts them off at present is the cost and security issues rather than lack of throttle. (this area does have a cycling culture as its influenced by NL and DK for obvious historical and geographical reasons).

If they really wanted an electric moped they'd actually get their CBT or license rather than risk gettiing their vehicle confiscated by cops and VOSA. e.g. good friend of mine put £2000+ of his own personal cash into getting a C1(?) license so he could drive a Bedford TK lorry he is restoring as unlike older folk he doesn't automatically have that license category.

Todays youth aren't half as bad, selfish or stupid as they are made out to be, and with rising fuel prices and environmental concerns attitudes are changing, albeit slowly.

OTOH I think even the big illegal e-bikes are currently viewed as too "nerdy" for the gary boy types (ironically because they don't make a lot of noise!), as they aren't that cheap or easy to get hold of or maintain in comparison to a moped you could get for about a few hundred quid.

And as I mentioned earlier if you are young and on the road the cops do take more interest in you. They always have done.

so fast "e-mopeds" currently are toys for the middle aged men with spare cash, a slightly rebellious streak but enough sense not to draw excessive attention to themselves.

However from my own life experience and that of my friends (I used to be a DJ and raver) it is foolhardy to repeatedly brag about finding loopholes in the laws/system on public media, even "yoof friendly" or "alternative" media and also "free speech" internet forums, as those who disagree often don't do it openly, they lurk and tip off those with real power and then action is taken.

Even then I doubt the cops will bother those riding bikes which can do about 18mph derestricted - but they may well target those with the moped-style 25mph+ bikes and particularly the buisinesses selling them

Just because its possible to get round laws by clever wording doesn't mean that it will be always possible.

For instance it was easy to sell strong stimulant drugs by post (for the use of hedonists in the same way as "pep pills" and "dexies" of previous years) until recently due to loopholes but it only took a year to ban the stronger ones (weaker ones are still available on sale) when people got greedy and landed up in hospital.