Cardiff - Dozens of illegal e-bikes seized in Crackdown

[Tony1951]

Just watched a Police Officer showing a BBC Wales Reporter one of the illegal Ebikes that could do 80 mph . The rear motor was the size of a dinner plate and he lifted the rear wheel up and used the throttle to show the speed on the bike speedo . I wonder what speed that would equate to when under load ?

I have a couple of low powered motorbikes, a 125cc Cg125 and a Honda CB250 twin. They have 11hp and 20 hp respectively, which runs in watts to 8.08kw and 14.7kw.

The 8.08Kw bike can just about do 62 miles an hour and the 14.7kw one gets to about 71 if you can wait long enough.

It is quite interesting that once you get over about 50 miles an hour in the real world (as opposed to the silly police check world) any increase in speed, needs shed loads more power. There is an exponential element involved in pushing through the atmosphere at increasing speed. These people announcing that a dodgy e-bike can do 70 miles a hour with about 1kw of power are into Star Treck physics. If they had any understanding at all of what they are talking about they'd be embarrassed.

You can see the same effect, on steroids in the history of powered flight at speed - the breaking of the sound barrier for example. They were doubling power output to achieve small margins of extra speed.

 

[saneagle]

Just watched a Police Officer showing a BBC Wales Reporter one of the illegal Ebikes that could do 80 mph . The rear motor was the size of a dinner plate and he lifted the rear wheel up and used the throttle to show the speed on the bike speedo . I wonder what speed that would equate to when under load ?

The wheel was not spinning at 80 mph. The LCD wasn't setup to show the correct speed. If the wheel speed really was that fast, the motor would run so inefficiently that something would catch fire. The bike's actual top speed on the road would be around 30 mph, and no-load around 40 mph.

 

[RoadieRoger]

Must have had an Italian tuned Speedometer like on my 2003 Aprilia Leonardo 250 Scooter . Appears to be about 10 mph out and you can`t see it as the MPH Scale has green numbers on a black background .

 

[saneagle]

Must have had an Italian tuned Speedometer like on my 2003 Aprilia Leonardo 250 Scooter . Appears to be about 10 mph out and you can`t see it as the MPH Scale has green numbers on a black background .

Italian motorbikes always had a reputation of having very optimistic speedos. I think 10 mph would be a good one. Incidentally, all speedometers on cars and motorbikes are optimistic. If you compare with GPS speed, the speedo typically reads from 3mph to 5mph fast. I guess that's so that the manufacturers can't be sued when you get a speeding ticket.

 

[Tony1951]

Italian motorbikes always had a reputation of having very optimistic speedos. I think 10 mph would be a good one. Incidentally, all speedometers on cars and motorbikes are optimistic. If you compare with GPS speed, the speedo typically reads from 3mph to 5mph fast. I guess that's so that the manufacturers can't be sued when you get a speeding ticket.

My 73 Skoda is the first car i ever had, since i could measure the speed indepenently, that doesn't do that.

The speedo is bang on accurate. I have only checked it with its digital speedo enabled. I haven't calibrated the analogue one.

 

[Baz the balloon man]

I have a couple of low powered motorbikes, a 125cc Cg125 and a Honda CB250 twin. They have 11hp and 20 hp respectively, which runs in watts to 8.08kw and 14.7kw.

The 8.08Kw bike can just about do 62 miles an hour and the 14.7kw one gets to about 71 if you can wait long enough.

It is quite interesting that once you get over about 50 miles an hour in the real world (as opposed to the silly police check world) any increase in speed, needs shed loads more power. There is an exponential element involved in pushing through the atmosphere at increasing speed. These people announcing that a dodgy e-bike can do 70 miles a hour with about 1kw of power are into Star Treck physics. If they had any understanding at all of what they are talking about they'd be embarrassed.

You can see the same effect, on steroids in the history of powered flight at speed - the breaking of the sound barrier for example. They were doubling power output to achieve small margins of extra speed.

So a realistic power to speed ratio for say one of these fat tyre bikes ie some decent range from battery’s and say a 750W motor could be limited to 40mph to make a viable electric moped that could still be peddled to your destination if you ran out of battery .

I know of people using these illegally but to me they seem to be an alternative green type of transport once registered as a motor vehicle and compliant to the relevant laws .

As in previous posts on here it’s just the insurance or cost of insurance that is preventing people who want to ride one in a fully legal way ie an e motor cycle.

 

[Peter.Bridge]

So a realistic power to speed ratio for say one of these fat tyre bikes ie some decent range from battery’s and say a 750W motor could be limited to 40mph to make a viable electric moped that could still be peddled to your destination if you ran out of battery .

I know of people using these illegally but to me they seem to be an alternative green type of transport once registered as a motor vehicle and compliant to the relevant laws .

As in previous posts on here it’s just the insurance or cost of insurance that is preventing people who want to ride one in a fully legal way ie an e motor cycle.

No - the motor output on a fat tyre bike (less efficient than a MTB below) to reach 40 mph would need to 2500W, so roughly 3kW from the controller. So that would be roughly 3 * 48V 20Ah batteries (roughly 3*5 kg) for an hour at full power (40mph) - so at 40 mph that would give you a range of 40 miles. Aerodynamics would make a huge difference (e.g. add a bike fairing) - see full recumbent (although you are unlikely to get that aerodynamic with a motorbike design.)

 

[Tony1951]

The old mopeds of the 1950s and 1960s had about 1.4 - 1.7 hp which you would need to multiply by 735 to convert hp to watts. They had a top speed of about 30.

In the mid 1960s maybe 1966 1967 i had an RM 1. I think that was the model. It had a manual clutch.



I think the power output of around 1025 watts and 2 inch tyres with a top speed of about 30 miles an hour gives a realistic idea of how fast a 1000w ebike might be expected to go.

Once you get to about 30 mph, the greatest hindrance to more speed starts to be air resistance. It just goes up exponentially as you go faster.

 

[Tony1951]

If you don't want to be restricted to 15 mph, buy a petrol moped or a chinese 125cc motorbike. VASTLY better than an expensive, illegal ebike in every way and most likely much cheaper with limitless range. There is no comparison in terms of safety, performance and economy. A cheap chinese 125 will do about 55 mph, 125 to the gallon, and cost you under £2000. The bureauracy is easily complied with. Its no big deal to pass a test and pay maybe £125 a year for tax and insurance.

 

[Peter.Bridge]

The old mopeds of the 1950s and 1960s had about 1.4 - 1.7 hp which you would need to multiply by 735 to convert hp to watts. They had a top speed of about 30.

In the mid 1960s maybe 1966 1967 i had an RM 1. I think that was the model. It had a manual clutch.

View attachment 64235

I think the power output of around 1025 watts and 2 inch tyres with a top speed of about 30 miles an hour gives a realistic idea of how fast a 1000w ebike might be expected to go.

Once you get to about 30 mph, the greatest hindrance to more speed starts to be air resistance. It just goes up exponentially as you go faster.

I think that would be more realistic for a viable electric moped that could still be peddled to your destination if you ran out of battery that was registered as a motor vehicle and compliant to the relevant laws . Some sort of fairing would help - 2* 48V 20Ah batteries would give you a range of 60 miles at full power. You could probably make that sort of vehicle weighing 30kg ish with careful design. I'm surprised that sort of s-pedelec hasn't been marketed with a partnership with an insurance company

 

[Kev_w]

The old mopeds of the 1950s and 1960s had about 1.4 - 1.7 hp which you would need to multiply by 735 to convert hp to watts. They had a top speed of about 30.

In the mid 1960s maybe 1966 1967 i had an RM 1. I think that was the model. It had a manual clutch.

View attachment 64235

I think the power output of around 1025 watts and 2 inch tyres with a top speed of about 30 miles an hour gives a realistic idea of how fast a 1000w ebike might be expected to go.

Once you get to about 30 mph, the greatest hindrance to more speed starts to be air resistance. It just goes up exponentially as you go faster.

In the early 80's I had a couple of mopeds that could at a push be pedalled, a Mobylette (sp) & a Yam FS1E, both unrestricted and could both reach 50mph, I've also had an Italian Lambretta which I'm sure had a stop peg on the speedo as it wouldn't go over 65mph

Being older I think of the 'falling off it' speed so the pedelec 15mph is ok for me.

 

[Tony1951]

I think that would be more realistic for a viable electric moped that could still be peddled to your destination if you ran out of battery that was registered as a motor vehicle and compliant to the relevant laws . Some sort of fairing would help - 2* 48V 20Ah batteries would give you a range of 60 miles at full power. You could probably make that sort of vehicle weighing 30kg ish with careful design. I'm surprised that sort of s-pedelec hasn't been marketed with a partnership with an insurance company

All true, I think Peter. But I am guessing the electric moped would cost more than the petrol one, and from the co2/green point of view, bearing in mind the limited battery life and the environmental cost of mining lithium and exotic metals, and the need to replace the battery every few years, the end result of a low power, four stroke petrol moped that would last a hundred thousand miles of sensible riding and oil changes, might even mean that the environmental cost of the petrol version would be about the same or better. That assertion is an impression and is not the result of a proper analysis.

The old Honda 50 was advertised as being capable of 225 mpg. If you rode it like we old gents likely would, that would be perfectly possible.

I had an elderly uncle who lived in Ireland after he got in trouble with the law because of a benefit fraud here and absconded from the reach of the courts to Limeric, and he rode one until he died of Covid aged 92 in 2022. It was said the Gaurda knew him well and ignored his lack of a helmet because he rode it so gently.




For a more powerful bike, the Lexmoto zsb 125 can be had for about £1620 .

It is a screaming bargain at that price with a 2 year warranty.

Model | Lexmoto Motorcycles and Scooters

www.lexmoto.com

 

[Peter.Bridge]

Yes - I just did a quick google of petrol scooters, they seem very good value compared with electric bikes. There was a new Honda 125 scooter for £2500 max power 9.6Kw, fuel consumption 28 miles per litre ! You seem to get a lot for your money

Some of the cheaper brands were less than £1500 for a 50CC scooter

 

[Tony1951]

Yes - I just did a quick google of petrol scooters, they seem very good value compared with electric bikes. There was a new Honda 125 scooter for £2500 max power 9.6Kw, fuel consumption 28 miles per litre ! You seem to get a lot for your money

Some of the cheaper brands were less than £1500 for a 50CC scooter

That lexmoto zsb is nolonger current, but they are still around at £1620 I think. There is a youtube review where the guy says he loves his and had ridden it for about two years. He had a big bike and said he still loved the little lexmoto. If you look after them, I think they are reliable enough. Mind you - lots of young lads buy them and don't do the maintenance and get problems. That is nothing new though.

 

[Tony1951]

In the mid 1970s my brother rode his Honda 50 to Italy from Newcastle with his girlfriend on the back. She had to get off and walk when they were crossing the Alps near Briancon and the Alp de Huez mind you.

I rode my old Honda 250 RS to Milan in 1990 with my then 8 year old, eldest son, on the back, and I know how steep that road is from Grenoble to the Aosta Valley. That bike cost me £250 back in the day.

Somewhere in central France circa 1990.



This photo of the boy, was taken at about 5AM off the side of the Auto-route de Soliel about half way from Provence to Paris. We just slept on the side of the road in one of those rest areas on the auto-route. The lad certainly didn't get a silver spoon holiday experience. 2500 miles or thereabouts on the back of a ten year old 250 and sleeping open air on verges without putting up a tent, on some nights.

We drove from Paris to Newcastle - 547 miles in one stint (excepting the ferry) Partly overnight too.

 

[saneagle]

In the mid 1970s my brother rode his Honda 50 to Italy from Newcastle with his girlfriend on the back. She had to get off and walk when they were crossing the Alps near Briancon and the Alp de Huez mind you.

I rode my old Honda 250 RS to Milan in 1990 with my then 8 year old son on the back, and I know how steep that road is from Grenoble to the Aosta Valley. That bike cost me £250 back in the day.

Somewhere is central France circa 1990.
View attachment 64239



View attachment 64240

I rode my 50cc Honda Dax around the IOM race circuit on Mad Sunday with my mate on the back. We were only getting around 12mph up the mountain, which was a bit scary because of the speed of the other bikes, and the riders wouldn't be expecting a relatively stationary vehicle in the road round a blind bend. For that reason I wouldn't do it again, but we lived to tell the tale.

 

[Tony1951]

I rode my 50cc Honda Dax around the IOM race circuit on Mad Sunday with my mate on the back. We were only getting around 12mph up the mountain, which was a bit scary because of the speed of the other bikes, and the riders wouldn't be expecting a relatively stationary vehicle in the road round a blind bend. For that reason I wouldn't do it again, but we lived to tell the tale.

LOL - had to laugh at the 'relatively stationary idea - true though.

 

[Baz the balloon man]

All the posts and photos are good but what I am sort of getting at is say in London speed is around 20mPH on average but some roads are 30 , 40 or 50 MPH speed limits.

With the modern technology of electric only bikes the size and weight of some of the better built fat tyre or snow bikes the size and weight have some advantages ie still being able to bring them indoors or in my case down the side of a 700mm allyway to my garden makes them an attractive option for those who want a small green mode of transport but able to legally go faster than an EPAC

And hopefully engineered to go faster safely with better specifications than a standard EPAC.

As if you leave them out on the road they will get nicked or stripped of the battery ECT .

 

[Tony1951]

One terrible thing about the modern urban UK, is the way our police have come to tolerate a massive amount of anti-social thievery. You literally get no reaction to what is deemed low level theft and anti-social disorder, such as bicycle theft and shop lifting. The latest scam I am aware of involves going into a shop, filling a basket with high value goods and then walking out of the door to a waiting car and driving away.

I think the lack of police reaction only leads to greater and greater levels of these crimes.