Brexit, for once some facts.

Zlatan

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That's the nonsense I've already exposed:

Firstly the claim that where the polonium had been could be followed from its emission traces. That is scientific claptrap, it's impossible. As I've observed and Woosh has confirmed, the alpha emission particles have almost no penetrative ability, they cannot even penetrate the thinnest of tissue paper so leave no trace of where they have been. An alpha particle is essentially a simple helium atom, two protons and two neutrons, too light and bulky to penetrate. The only way it could be traced is if the material itself was carried externally in a leaky container that was dribbling out it's content all the way from Russia and into all places it was claimed to have been found.

Secondly the claim of it being traced on aircraft going back into Russia is even more silly since it would also necessitate the leaky container scenario. Remember, the whole world's annual production is under 100 grams so they hardly be likely to have enough to dribble it out continuously for days.

And why would they risk carrying incriminating evidence back when it could be safely dumped anywhere since it does no external harm? Once such a deed was done they'd dump any left and it's container. It has little value.

The whole cockeyed story is riddled with such nonsense.

I'm betting this was the political inspired conclusion behind the investigation's findings. Knowing that virtually all polonium 210 is produced in Russia before export of much of it, it was realised that blaming Russia was plausible. Therefore this was the story adopted and they decided to guild the lily with some additional seemingly firmer evidence. Thus the story was born about tracing it everywhere it had been, but that as I've shown was their crucial mistake. There are too many people like me who know the subject far too well scientifically and physically to be fooled by such falsehoods.

Russia could easily have done it, so could all the other people and countries they've upset, so could I.

But the "evidence" produced to try to prove it was Russia has no basis in fact. As Zlatan has observed, the public inquiry found that there was no proof in any of the evidential elements, only circumstantial possibilities that didn't rule out anyone else.
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Polonium can not be traced in usual way but it can certainly be traced.
Lifted from Science Journal ( Is Polinium perfect assassins poison?)

Is Polonium Imperfect Because It Leaves A Trail?

Polonium has one significant drawback. If investigators are alert enough to detect it has been used, they can follow the radioactive trail it leaves on everything it has come into contact with before the killing to find and identify a suspect.

This is what happened in the Litvinenko case. Investigators found traces of polonium in the hotel room where the tea was served and followed the trail backward, matching it with Lugovoi's movements.

For this reason, those using polonium count heavily on their murder weapon not being found.

But there is one thing more that assassins using polonium must be careful about. And that is to not to be killed themselves by it."

Research it again Flecc. Things change, new techniques are developed.

The really difficult bit is determing its use in first place. That was almost by accident in this case. One of researchers happened to have worked with it years ago and suggested checking for it. Doctors thought other poisons were administered and treated accordingly with Prussian Blue to no avail.
They even know about failed attempts and one " dry run". Ie) a meeting took place without the poison and 3 with it. They washed the stuff down the bath on one of missed attempts.
Are you really trying to tell us the investigation manufactured a series of events based on a process which is impossible. Nonesense Flecc.
 
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flecc

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Polonium can not be traced in usual way but it can certainly be traced.
Lifted from Science Journal ( Is Polinium perfect assassins poison?
Is Polonium Imperfect Because It Leaves A Trail?

Polonium has one significant drawback. If investigators are alert enough to detect it has been used, they can follow the radioactive trail it leaves on everything it has come into contact with before the killing to find and identify a suspect.

This is what happened in the Litvinenko case. Investigators found traces of polonium in the hotel room where the tea was served and followed the trail backward, matching it with Lugovoi's movements.

For this reason, those using polonium count heavily on their murder weapon not being found.

But there is one thing more that assassins using polonium must be careful about. And that is to not to be killed themselves by it."

Research it again Flecc. Things change, new techniques are developed.
That is nonsense again, the world of physical properties does not change. Even the polonium itself is so difficult to trace it was only well after Livinenko's death that it was possible to establish it had been used. His death resulted from it entering his bloodstream and they will certainly have taken blood tests while he was ill, but were unable to detect the polonium presence.

And you've included the error yourself in the text highlighted bold in the quote from above:

This is what happened in the Litvinenko case. Investigators found traces of polonium in the hotel room where the tea was served and followed the trail backward, matching it with Lugovoi's movements.

Yes that is certainly possible, the powdered polonium itself, and it could easily have been partially spilled when administering. But it's emissions cannot be traced even immediately afterwards, especially not days and weeks later as was claimed.
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Zlatan

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And
"
Five Things You Should Know About Polonium



November 07, 2013 15:58 GMT

Charles Recknagel


Polonium was discovered by French scientist Marie Curie.
Polonium was discovered by French scientist Marie Curie.

Share

















Polonium is back in the news as Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat's wife says Swiss forensic tests show he was poisoned to death by it in 2004. Here are five things to know about the radioactive substance sometimes called the "Perfect Poison."

What Is Polonium?

Polonium is a metal found in uranium ore whose isotope polonium-210 is highly radioactive, emitting tiny positively charged alpha particles. So long as polonium is kept out of the human body, it poses little danger because the alpha particles travel no more than a few centimeters and cannot pass through skin. But if polonium is ingested, even in the tiniest quantity, it will so badly damage internal organs that they shut down and death is certain.

A speck of polonium the size of the dot at the end of this sentence contains about 3,400 times the lethal dose for humans. It was discovered by French scientist Marie Curie at the end of the 19th century and named after her native country, Poland (Polonia in Latin).

Why Is It Called The Perfect Poison?

Oleg Gordievsky, a former officer with Russia's KGB who was a double agent for Britain during the Cold War, says polonium is an ideal assassination weapon because it is absolutely lethal: "Polonium is a perfect poison. It kills absolutely, without hesitation. And if you use it, you use it with 100 percent certainty."

But polonium is not just an immensely powerful poison. Its presence in the body is also very hard for doctors to identify unless they are looking specifically for it.

Part of the difficulty in detecting polonium poisoning is that its outward symptoms resemble poisoning with much less powerful substances. Among the earliest symptoms are hair loss, which is also a standard symptom of poisoning by thallium, an element in rat poison.

This ability of polonium to conceal its presence by appearing to be another, simpler, poison enables it to fool investigators into looking for other culprits than the real assassin.

There is one more reason to consider polonium the perfect poison: it is easy to conceal and transport across borders.

Unlike most common radiation sources, polonium-210 does not set off standard radiation detectors because it emits only alpha particles that do not penetrate even a sheet of paper.

It can be carried in crystalized or powdered form or diluted in a bottle of liquid. Identifying it in any of these forms with current methods is both time-consuming and requires an experienced analyst.

Has It Been Used Before?

Yes. The most famous case is the assassination of Aleksandr Litvinenko, a former Russian security officer who received political asylum in Britain after becoming a highly vocal critic of Russian President Vladimir Putin. He died of polonium poisoning in November 2006.

British prosecutors say he drank polonium-laced tea while meeting in a hotel room with several Russians three weeks before his death. The tiny amount of polonium needed to kill him would have given no taste or color to his drink to alert him of its presence.


"It was very easy for [the assassins], because they went to the little kitchen in [the hotel room], put the poison into the teapot, poured the hot water [on the tea] and gave it to him," Gordievsky says. "He drank and continued to work, meeting people and talking and it was only late in the evening he started to feel unwell. In three days, it was clear that he was a goner."

Litvinenko died after three weeks of agony in a London hospital and the poison wasn't identified as polonium until shortly after his death. Later, British prosecutors named ex-KGB agent Andrei Lugovoi, one of the Russians Litvinenko had met for tea, as their chief suspect. However, Lugovoi had by then returned to Russia and Moscow refused to hand him back for trial. Russian authorities dismissed all charges of Moscow's involvement in the Litvinenko attack as "silly."

Is Polonium Imperfect Because It Leaves A Trail?

Polonium has one significant drawback. If investigators are alert enough to detect it has been used, they can follow the radioactive trail it leaves on everything it has come into contact with before the killing to find and identify a suspect.

This is what happened in the Litvinenko case. Investigators found traces of polonium in the hotel room where the tea was served and followed the trail backward, matching it with Lugovoi's movements.

For this reason, those using polonium count heavily on their murder weapon not being found.

But there is one thing more that assassins using polonium must be careful about. And that is to not to be killed themselves by it.

"The people like the KGB officers who killed in London were instructed how to keep [the polonium]. It was packed very securely in a bottle and it was opened only in the small kitchen of the hotel room and then poured into the kettle," Gordievsky says.

"And they themselves never touched it. But still, the main assassin was held [in a Moscow hospital because he was] unwell the first two weeks after the operation. So there are signs this is really a very risky element."

Today, Lugovoi remains active and in apparently good health. He was elected in 2007 to the Russian parliament on an ultranationalist ticket and is a successful businessman.

How And Where Is Polonium Produced?

Polonium-210 is present in very small amounts in the soil and in the atmosphere but it does not naturally occur in lethal concentrations. However, it can be manufactured in a nuclear reactor by bombarding the isotope bismuth-209 with neutrons. Worldwide, only about 100 grams are produced each year, almost all in Russia.

That means it requires enormous skill and resources to produce polonium and not too many people have access to it.

John Croft, a retired British radiation expert who worked on the Litvinenko case, has said a dose large enough to kill someone would likely have to come from a government with either civilian or military nuclear capabilities.

That category includes Russia and Arafat's foe, Israel. But it also includes dozens of other nations, including the United States.
 

Woosh

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zlatan, read the wiki on Po 210.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polonium

Quote:

210Po is widely used in industry, and readily available with little regulation or restriction.

In the US, a tracking system run by the Nuclear Regulatory Commission was implemented in 2007 to register purchases of more than 16 curies (590 GBq) of polonium-210 (enough to make up 5,000 lethal doses). The IAEA "is said to be considering tighter regulations ... There is talk that it might tighten the polonium reporting requirement by a factor of 10, to 1.6 curies (59 GBq)." As of 2013, this is still the only alpha emitting byproduct material available, as a NRC Exempt Quantity, which may be held without a radioactive material license.

It is quite possible that the source is the USA but you cannot be sure of that.
 
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Zlatan

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" The investigation into the death of former Russian spy Alexander Litvinenko gathered pace dramatically yesterday as it emerged that a number of British Airways aircraft that fly between Moscow and London have been contaminated with radioactive material.

Two BA Boeing 767s were grounded at Heathrow following tests ordered by Scotland Yard, and a third aircraft was being tested in Moscow after its pilot was warned not to take off."
An 11 yr old article from Times. All clap trap Flecc ???


Just because polinium does not show on Geiger counters does not mean samples from its suspected track can not be taken and traces found.
Minute but extradinary traces have been found in lots of places. I believe now in Yasser Arafat's personal belongings..
Its rather silly Flecc to just keep denying evidence and calling a whole host of techniques and scientists clap trap.
Polinium can be detected traced and followed. Fact.
 

flecc

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They even know about failed attempts and one " dry run". Ie) a meeting took place without the poison and 3 with it. They washed the stuff down the bath on one of missed attempts.
Once again you show it was the polonium itself they detected.

The tracing story is indeed nonsense, an entirely made up fiction. That is what I've posted and it's my last word on this Litvinenko subject since I'm tired of repeatedly stating the facts at the time, only for them to be ignored.

By all means stay with your beliefs and faith in our politicians, security services and public inquiries, but I'm not delusional enough to accompany you in those.

If you think they are honest, consider this:

Since the takover of the Ukraine four years ago we have been told and continue to be told that our relations with Russia are poor and now are at an all time low. We are also told that there are sanctions in place between Russia and the West.

But each year half of all our natural gas comes from Russia to fuel our cookers and heating. It's even more essential now we have a cracked pipeline.

But all of the USA's over 100 nuclear power stations run on reprocessed nuclear fuel bought from Russia.

But ever since 2014 Shell and Gazprom-Neft have continued to work together on Russian oil production using an approved plan to circumvent the sanctions.

All this and much, much more are being done with entirely harmonious relations and Russian co-operation.

Still think we are not being lied to?
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Zlatan

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zlatan, read the wiki on Po 210.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polonium

Quote:

210Po is widely used in industry, and readily available with little regulation or restriction.

In the US, a tracking system run by the Nuclear Regulatory Commission was implemented in 2007 to register purchases of more than 16 curies (590 GBq) of polonium-210 (enough to make up 5,000 lethal doses). The IAEA "is said to be considering tighter regulations ... There is talk that it might tighten the polonium reporting requirement by a factor of 10, to 1.6 curies (59 GBq)." As of 2013, this is still the only alpha emitting byproduct material available, as a NRC Exempt Quantity, which may be held without a radioactive material license.

It is quite possible that the source is the USA but you cannot be sure of that.
Thanks Woosh, I,ve already read it. Google detecting " Polinium 210"
There is a process which identifies tiny amounts of polinium in both biological and none biological samples. The process was used to identify polonium in bodily fluids of the victim and material samples from various sites likely to have been visited by his killers.
Saying polonium can nit be traced because it only emits alpha particles is assuming that's the only way of detecting it. It obviously is not.
 

Zlatan

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Once again you show it was the polonium itself they detected.

The tracing story is indeed nonsense, an entirely made up fiction. That is what I've posted and it's my last word on this Litvinenko subject since I'm tired of repeatedly stating the facts at the time, only for them to be ignored.

By all means stay with your beliefs and faith in our politicians, security services and public inquiries, but I'm not delusional enough to accompany you in those.

If you think they are honest, consider this:

Since the takover of the Ukraine four years ago we have been told and continue to be told that our relations with Russia are poor and now are at an all time low. We are also told that there are sanctions in place between Russia and the West.

But each year half of all our natural gas comes from Russia to fuel our cookers and heating. It's even more essential now we have a cracked pipeline.

But all of the USA's over 100 nuclear power stations run on reprocessed nuclear fuel bought from Russia.

But ever since 2014 Shell and Gazprom-Neft have continued to work together on Russian oil production using an approved plan to circumvent the sanctions.

All this and much, much more are being done with entirely harmonious relations and Russian co-operation.

Still think we are not being lied to?
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Good post Flecc. But none of that has anything to do with this case. Ofcourse we buy gas from Russia. In the 1930's Rolls Royce regularly supplied Germany with engines.( their first ME 109 had a Rolls Royce engine) And yes we are continually lied to..but generally not by scientists tracing poison trails.

Flecc
What's point of testing people for traces of polonium if its impossible find ? You are the one ignoring facts.
Polonium can be identified in samples and traced.
 
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flecc

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Polinium can be detected traced and followed. Fact.
I've said as much and have also posted the facts about polonium that you've had the nerve since to post to me, as if I didn't know.

Polonium itself certainly can be detected traced and followed. But there is no detectable trail left by it's alpha emissions. Give it a rest Zlatan, googling excerpts is no substitute for knowledge you don't have.

And by the way, Marie Curie is not credited with the discovery of polonium, despite that being the common view and what the internet reports. It was jointly discovered together witn radium by chemist Pierre Curie and his lab assistant wife Marie.

That earnt them a Nobel prize for the "discovery of radioactive elements" and Pierre is the lead name credited on the prize.

For the same discovery they were later awarded a second Nobel, this time stating the two substances with Pierre again named as lead author.

At that time Nobel prizes were scattered about like confetti, their neighbour also had one and so did one of Marie's cousins.

The main factor in Marie solely getting the publicity is that Pierre was an intensely shy man who hated any public gathering and fuss, so he sent Marie to accept the joint award.

Marie was undoubtedly brilliant, but their success was also due to Pierre's ability.

Bearing in mind the present context, it's amusing that Marie was a Russian since the Kingdom of Poland was a part of Russia when she was born in Warsaw.
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Zlatan

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They dont follow alpha emissions Flecc. They use gamma spectroscopy to identify the material itself. Read the article dv8eh posted. The second one explains the process.
If you accept polonium can be detected, traced and followed why do you discredit the investigation's conclusions that the polonium came in on planes with the killers who returned by air leaving traces on both journeys.

And just to remind you
"That is nonsense again, the world of physical properties does not change. Even the polonium itself is so difficult to trace it was only well after Livinenko's death that it was possible to establish it had been used. His death resulted from it entering his bloodstream and they will certainly have taken blood tests while he was ill, but were unable to detect the polonium presence."

If you had read the Inquiry or the report you would not have posted this rubbish.
They didn't identify polonium whilst he was alive because they were not looking for it. Around 2 weeks after his death his body fluids were checked specifically but almost by chance for polonium by gamma spectrometry. From then on they followed the trail of the already suspected pair, finding traces along the men,s trails.
 
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flecc

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The polonium was spread by contamination, which is what they detected. Read this:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2007/jan/06/russia.world

and this:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-33678717
Yes I've repeatedly posted that.

Its the claim that the traces of the radiation where it's been can be detected that isn't true, the alpha particles that are the emission cannot be traced.

For the umpteenth time the substance itself can easily be traced, but that is not what is being challenged.
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flecc

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They dont follow alpha emissions Flecc. They use gamma spectroscopy to identify the material itself. Read the article dv8eh posted. The second one explains the process.
If you accept polonium can be detected, traced and followed why do you discredit the investigation's conclusions that the polonium came in on planes with the killers who returned by air leaving traces on both journeys.
What on earth is wrong witn your perception Zlatan, as I've just replied to d8veh, I've kept saying exactly this in many posts. I don't need any explanation of how, I know how.

I am challenging the claim that it was possible to follow traces of the radiation emissions (alpha particles) claimed to be left behind, not the material itself which is easily traced. And I've already explained why the claim about the return journey evidence is nonsense.

I won't bother to respond to you again since you clearly haven't understood what I'm disputing and keep reading it as something else. You won't find a single instance of my disputing that polonium can be traced, of course it can be.
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Zlatan

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Yes I've repeatedly posted that.

Its the claim that the traces of the radiation where it's been can be detected that isn't true, the alpha particles that are the emission cannot be traced.

For the umpteenth time the substance itself can easily be traced, but that is not what is being challenged.
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Flecc
I,ve read the public inquiry from beginning to end ( been horrible weather here today) and I cant find a single mention of anyone claiming to have followed an emission trail .I,ve read most web posts and likewise . I know I have never claimed anyone followed an emision trail. In every case the claim has been the polonium trail was followed, which you,ve claimed as being clap trap.
Please refer me to where any claim has been made of following an emision trail. ?

And the method of following the trail is almost irrelevant, its the fact it can be followed that's important. Its listed about 5 pages back as being a serious weakness if used as a weapon by a killer.
The fact is you have attempted to discredit the Inquiry's findings by any methods . Unfortunately this one you tried has proved fruitless. The Inquiry found FSB responsible, named the killers and said probably Putin gave the orders.These are the facts you are questioning. You are now saying yes its possible to follow the polonium trail but still dispute mentioned findings.??"/( presumably)
But good night. I,m retiring with a bottle of rose..
 
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flecc

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Flecc
I,ve read the public inquiry from beginning to end ( been horrible weather here today) and I cant find a single mention of anyone claiming to have followed an emission trail .
I'm stating what was claimed at the time of the investigation, that the radiation traces were followed all the way. Of course once that was challenged by many including me, the story was changed to try to make it more feasible. But as I've shown, it's not, since those responsible simply wouldn't continue to carry any of the substance back.

Reading something up on the internet long afterwards is very unreliable since the stories are changed to suit. For example the internet will tell you that the world first nuclear accident at Windscale was caused by a crack in the nuclear vessel that was immediately discovered by their scientists and the reactor shut down.

The truth published at the time was very different and damaging. The intense radiation was discovered five days earlier by an amateur using a geiger counter in Cumbria, who struggled to get the police to accept what he was saying. It took him tracing gradually back to Windscale and two more insistent visits to the police before they finally checked witn Windscale and the scientists realised to their horror what had happened. Clearly they hadn't been carrying out routine checks and that is obviously why the truth couldn't be allowed to continue to be told that radiation had spread for five days and carried over an area from North Wales to the Scottish border. For years the lamb from those areas was quietly bought up by government buyers and destroyed, but that again is hidden now. There was even more blatant dishonest following in this, but it's too long a story.
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oldgroaner

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In the Daily Mail where they never learn
"
DAN HODGES: Our last line of defence - Labour's MP's must declare war on Corbyn


So it wasn’t all ‘fake news’ after all. Jeremy Corbyn is not a paid Russian agent. But as the events of last week proved, he is most certainly an agent of Russia.

Within minutes of Corbyn’s election as Labour leader in 2015 , Conservative HQ issued a campaign poster that made the incendiary claim that he was ‘a threat to our national security’. At the time it was roundly condemned as a sensationalist smear. But as we now know, it was merely a statement of fact.


No it wasn't: it was a lie then and a bigger one now, all he asked for was a properly organised response, and this is the result.
How is asking that the internationally agreed protocols be observed be a threat to our security?

A far bigger one would be if he was being paid huge amounts of Russian money by friends of Putin.

But no party would do that, would they?
Apart from the Conservatives of course.
 

oldtom

Esteemed Pedelecer
There's a very good article in Friday's edition from 'Vox Political', not least the list of pink tory/Blairite MPs who stood with the tories against Jeremy Corbyn. They didn't even add up to two dozen!

The quote from David Schneider towards the bottom of the article is classic political humour but the subject is hugely important and should be investigated in the light of all the 'Russia matters' that have been brought into play by the tories to draw attention away from their failings on 'Brexit' progress.

https://voxpoliticalonline.com/2018/03/16/salisbury-poisoning-corbyn-was-right-the-french-germans-and-americans-know-it-and-the-tories-did-what-he-demanded/

Tom
 
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oldgroaner

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There's a very good article in Friday's edition from 'Vox Political', not least the list of pink tory/Blairite MPs who stood with the tories against Jeremy Corbyn. They didn't even add up to two dozen!

The quote from David Schneider towards the bottom of the article is classic political humour but the subject is hugely important and should be investigated in the light of all the 'Russia matters' that have been brought into play by the tories to draw attention away from their failings on 'Brexit' progress.

https://voxpoliticalonline.com/2018/03/16/salisbury-poisoning-corbyn-was-right-the-french-germans-and-americans-know-it-and-the-tories-did-what-he-demanded/

Tom
So the Government Pressured Porton Down into a Statement they were reluctant to give?
"Porton Down is still not certain it is the Russians who have apparently synthesised a “Novichok”. Hence “Of a type developed by Russia”. Note developed, not made, produced or manufactured.

If Porton Down the Masters of this sphere of Warfare are uncertain, there isn't going to be any proof is there?
As we have no means of verifying the material or where it came from.
 

Woosh

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Just because polinium does not show on Geiger counters does not mean samples from its suspected track can not be taken and traces found.
Minute but extradinary traces have been found in lots of places. I believe now in Yasser Arafat's personal belongings..
Its rather silly Flecc to just keep denying evidence and calling a whole host of techniques and scientists clap trap.
Polinium can be detected traced and followed. Fact.
in the real world, detecting minute traces of radionucleotides is not a clear-cut science unless you have sufficient samples. Even then, if you are looking for one particular nucleotide, like 210Po in this case, is even more difficult. Arafat's body tissues have been thoroughly examined and tested for it and still yield no conclusive result.
Zlatan, you need you keep a critical eye for false positives and false negatives because of the variation of samples. Where and how samples are collected is the weak point in the chain of evidence.
For example, 210Po is present in our body sweat and concentrated in excrements such as cat litter. The lab techniques are usually based on comparison. You buy commercial samples, test them alongside the samples from the dead body and looking for difference.
The problem is you are testing the samples that do not come from the same body and locations before the victim was exposed to Po 210 and died.
You then have to make assumption how much Po 210 a normal body should have. When assumptions are introduced, the confidence on the finding is reduced, that is why scientific findings must be subjected to peer reviews and repeated elsewhere.

This is a gamma spectroscopy of cat litter. For Po 210, you want a spike at 5.3 MeV.

 

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