Brexit, for once some facts.

[oldgroaner]

You are correct in what you say. However, David Cameron clearly and unmistakably promised that the government would ask the people whether they wanted to remain in the EU or leave the EU. He further promised that the government would carry out the wishes of the people as indicated by the result of the referendum. There was no ambiguity or conditions attached. I appreciate and I fully understand that there is no legal obligation to honour the trust which the government asked people to extend to them. MPs approved the process by 544 votes for to 53 against, so they all fully understood what they were signing up to and backed it to the hilt.

Personally, I really hope that the government withdraws A50 and puts the whole sorry mess in the bin, but I can see and I can feel the anger of those who feel cheated, let-down, betrayed and even abused by MPs on all sides. What they have done, beginning with approving a referendum in the first place, is a most appalling act of mismanagement, abuse of trust and cowardice. It's shocking and it's unacceptable.

Instead of Leavers and Remainers channelling their anger, frustrations and even hatred towards each other, they should be channelling all of those feelings in the direction of Westminster. MPs have no stake in the consequences of their actions. They approve a series of events, completely safe in the knowledge that the consequences of their decisions will not touch, harm or influence their lives in any way. It's the same with starting wars. Politicians do not fight on the front lines, they have no stake in the consequences, it's not their own lives they are jeopardising in a conflict. Maybe it's time that changed.

And the supreme irony is that the public voted to leave the EU and placed itself entirely at the mercy of these people, imagining that some miracle would change them by that simple act into being accountable by them!

So they wanted change? quite a reasonable desire, but it turned out change made by politicians for their own benefit, not those of the Voters.

My opposition to Brexit is largely based on the premise that the EU is a lesser evil than our local excuse for a democracy, and nothing since the referendum has done anything but make that opinion seem as TM would put it "Strong and Stable"

Whatever excesses we see in the EU can be seen to be orders of magnitude worse in the Westminster Flying Circus

 

[50Hertz]

My opposition to Brexit is largely based on the premise that the EU is a lesser evil than our local excuse for a democracy, and nothing since the referendum has done anything but make that opinion seem as TM would put it "Strong and Stable"

Whatever excesses we see in the EU can be seen to be orders of magnitude worse in the Westminster Flying Circus

That is a good point. What can the EU do which would qualify as a greater act of abuse against the British people than those things which our own government do to us?

Our own government has asked us to place faith and trust in them over the referendum. They are now throwing that trust away like it's a worthless piece of litter.

Our government promised us trade and prosperity outside the EU. Their ability to negotiate has been laid bare. How can any sane person believe they are capable of delivering these things.

The EU isn't perfect and membership does come with disadvantages and things we don't like. But look at Westminster, what is that our MPs and government do better than the EU? Westminster has shat all over the electorate, and collectively MPs are failing in their jobs every minute of every day.

 

[oldgroaner]

The promise to honour the vote had no legal force, so the result was not binding. In our constitution the public cannot rule over parliament so every opinion of the public isn't binding.

That includes general elections, since as subjects of the Crown the people elect a party, but that party has to then seek the Crown's permission to form a government and the Crown's permission to open a parliament. And of course as I pointed out some while ago and it's been confirmed in parliament since, the Crown can prorogue any sitting parliament, should the need arise.

The unpalatable truth is that as subjects and not citizens, we members of the public only have illusory powers but no authority, short of a successful revolution.
.

There are lies, damned lies , and promises made by politicians.
They operate procedurally under the "Pirates Code"

 

[oldgroaner]

The fundamental problem we have with our method of government is the Party system.
It was bad enough before when it worked like this

Voters all over the nation turn out and elect members of parliament, knowing that if the party the candidates are aligned too is numerically smaller than another one, their particular MP is going to have no power to affect events, and may as well not have been elected at all and saved the public purse a huge amount of money on salary and expenses on someone who hasn't actually got the job they were elected to do.

Power was further subverted by the Cabinet system, where even if your elected MP is part of the ruling party, unless they were members of this group they were little better than spectators, to be bullied into voting as required.

Since then things have changed for the worse
(impossible though that might seem)

Now even the cabinet system has fallen out of favour and the country is ruled by what appears to be a dictator, but is in fact a Drone, representing not the Cabinet, but whichever loony cabal (which could be from both right and left it seems) has managed to grab control and threatened the Prime Minister, who is reduced to offering bribes or threats to carry out personal crusades, which in themselves are likely to have originated outside parliament itself from some indeterminate point of origin, funding and agenda

Parliament isn't simply corrupt, it is "owned" to use the vernacular and neither of the major parties is free of blame

 

[Wicky]

Instead of Leavers and Remainers channelling their anger, frustrations and even hatred towards each other, they should be channelling all of those feelings in the direction of Westminster. MPs have no stake in the consequences of their actions.

For once I partly agree - Yes the ones like BJ, JRM, Gove Farage, May et al who led Leavers down the garden path with illusory high hopes of a new land full of milk and honey have a lot to answer for - and hopefully at the ballot box will be dumped upon and be banished to their garden shed to write their memoirs like Cameron to avoid the public at large. While MPs who have steadfastly dug their heals in to interupt the headlong rush led by May over a cliff deserve laurels and a George Cross for not getting suckered into Leaver Fever. And campaigner Gina Miller deserves a bloody great statue in her honour.

 

[Wicky]

Apparently last Friday while nobody was looking some toff from the Foreign Office or wherever, a certain Sir Tim Barrow, our man in Brussels, wrote a letter to the EU which formally agrees to Art.50 being extended, without first waiting for Parliament to approve the extension.
It`s a kind of make it up as you go along/a$$ about face parallel universe we are in now.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1109135605898887168

Formal instrument of Article 50 extension was a letter sent by Sir Tim Barrow this morning after PM agreed with Tusk last night - that activated Paragraph 3 of Article 50 - the letter does not actually mention a date, but the EU Council (28) unanimous conclusion does mention both

Seems to be just a letter putting it in writing from her end the day after what they agreed upon about extending late in the day ( Didn't May pop her head out at the end after midnight to announce what she got)

 

[Fingers]

For once I partly agree - Yes the ones like BJ, JRM, Gove Farage, May et al who led Leavers down the garden path with illusory high hopes of a new land full of milk and honey have a lot to answer for - and hopefully at the ballot box will be dumped upon and be banished to their garden shed to write their memoirs like Cameron to avoid the public at large. While MPs who have steadfastly dug their heals in to interupt the headlong rush led by May over a cliff deserve laurels and a George Cross for not getting suckered into Leaver Fever. And campaigner Gina Miller deserves a bloody great statue in her honour.

Nonsense. That’s a remainers fantasy. I don’t know a single person who voted leave that has changed their mind. Sure people are exasperated and shocked at the ineptitude May and co but it doesn’t mean they now want to stay in the EU.

Leavers knew the hard work would be in the first few years of leaving. People knew we would take a hit. They still wanted out then and they do now. Most leavers views have hardened and actually want a hard Brexit on WTO rules.

 

[anotherkiwi]

I have not a clue

Yes we had noticed. Don't worry we won't tell anyone!

 

[Danidl]

Apparently last Friday while nobody was looking some toff from the Foreign Office or wherever, a certain Sir Tim Barrow, our man in Brussels, wrote a letter to the EU which formally agrees to Art.50 being extended, without first waiting for Parliament to approve the extension.
It`s a kind of make it up as you go along/a$$ about face parallel universe we are in now.

BTW, could you set up a stall down there so i can get my passport stamped - thank-you
Brussels confirms return of border checks under no-deal Brexit
British travellers will need to get passport stamped and may be asked about purpose of visit.

British travellers will get a stamp in their passport every time they enter and leave the European Union in the event of a no-deal Brexit, the European commission has confirmed.
The announcement on border checks was revealed days after the British government secured a short extension that shifts the Brexit deadline to 12 April.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/mar/25/brussels-confirms-return-of-border-checks-under-no-deal-brexit

Don't worry, we will have no problems accomodating you anywhere on the island of Ireland. You see we don't recognise you NI people as foreign and British, .. We see you as ourselves, but with slightly funny accents, .. Just like people from Cork or Kerry , but with slightly more understandable accents, but a poorer choice in headgear.

 

[Danidl]

We can avoid that by going anywhere via the RoI, since there won't be anyone on that border to stamp anything!
.

.. not so. .. while we will be happy to have the Hen Parties and Stag do as before s ,there will presumably be a passport control at Dublin port and Airport , for those coming from or going the mainland UK. There is already passport control on any boat and flights to the Continent so no change there. So people coming from mainland UK will be able to travel the length and breath of RoI and NI without passports,if they come via Belfast ,but no further.
The only differences would be a Blue channel for RoI passports and a Red channel for UK passports at all continental and Irish ports.

 

[Fingers]

.. not so. .. while we will be happy to have the Hen Parties and Stag do as before s ,there will presumably be a passport control at Dublin port and Airport , for those coming from or going the mainland UK. There is already passport control on any boat and flights to the Continent so no change there. So people coming from mainland UK will be able to travel the length and breath of RoI and NI without passports,if they come via Belfast ,but no further.
The only differences would be a Blue channel for RoI passports and a Red channel for UK passports at all continental and Irish ports.

More Irish passports come here so that would be a very backward way of doing things. But it IS Ireland I suppose.

 

[gray198]

are not all of these so called votes in the HOC just advisory and she doesn't have to take any notice

 

[Wicky]

Another bonus point for Bercow

From Will Quince my Tory MP on FB (see a few posts back)

"No great surprise but disappointed that the Speaker has not selected my cross party amendment and declined to take my point of order.

Draw your own conclusion."

Not much sympaphy from one of his constituents who added this rebuke to him

"The conclusion is that you were looking for some political limelight in what is clearly going to be another high profile week for Brexit. The amendment is quite obviously virtue signalling - probably to impress your fellow Brexiteer MPs and appeal to a diminishing number of people in our constituency that still want Brexit to happen. I can tell you now - with the likelihood of an election coming - this will likely be your undoing. ‬

‪Your amendment stinks of worthiness Will, pitching you as a great defender of our democracy, but, sadly you are no saviour. Just another MP following the herd and looking after their career.‬

‪Referenda inherently requires a majority winner and a loser. This one offered a binary choice on one of the most complex constitutional issues to face parliament in modern history. An issue many people on both sides couldn’t fully comprehend. A referendum fraught with lies on both sides as well as election fraud. A referendum that told us Brexit would be easy, that we the UK would be the ones with negotiating strength and clout, that we would achieve a deal close to what we have now protecting jobs and economy. Who can seriously not defend the notion that the British people have been conned. And we have your party to thank for this awakening through your shambolic negotiations. ‬

‪And yet worthy Will is upset why his bull-headed tabled amendment didn’t get selected. Bercow who also serves in Essex is certainly coming out with more credit than you. Democracy does not stand still. This whole process is testing our revered democratic institutions and systems to its limits. There is no easy way out of this now. Unfortunately, your version of democracy has treated the 48% as losers in a mere game. You have failed to represent the legitimate concerns of 16 million people (or 44,000 in Colchester) during the whole 3 years and yet here you are - despite the changed circumstance - dutifully tabling an amendment with your pals to honour the referendum (with everything we now know) rather than dedicate more time to perhaps understand why 5 million people are frustrated enough to sign an petition and why people on the remain side are much more fervent than the leave side in going to marches to fight for a better future."

 

[Wicky]

Richard Harrington Member of Parliament for Watford Since 2010 and Minister for Business and Industry resigns over Govt approach to Brexit.

And MPs have wrestled control from May!

Will she be gone before 29th March.

 

[50Hertz]

are not all of these so called votes in the HOC just advisory and she doesn't have to take any notice

Correct, she doesn’t and she won’t. Her mind is closed to all possible outcomes except getting the deal that the EU wrote for her, passed.

 

[Fingers]

are not all of these so called votes in the HOC just advisory and she doesn't have to take any notice

Yup.

 

[Kudoscycles]

Interesting that Theresa May stated in the house that there were now two outcomes.....her deal and a long Brexit,she rejected no deal .....she made no reference of a second referendum or revoking article 50.
KudosDave

 

[Kudoscycles]

are not all of these so called votes in the HOC just advisory and she doesn't have to take any notice

Don’t forget the original referendum was only advisory,why should we take any more notice.
KudosDave

 

[Fingers]

Interesting that Theresa May stated in the house that there were now two outcomes.....her deal and a long Brexit,she rejected no deal .....she made no reference of a second referendum or revoking article 50.
KudosDave

She will never call a second referendum. The only election you will get off this swivel eyed lunatic is a GE after she resigns

 

[Wicky]

Interesting that Theresa May stated in the house that there were now two outcomes.....her deal and a long Brexit,she rejected no deal .....she made no reference of a second referendum or revoking article 50.
KudosDave

Selective memory of what's possible...

Mr Mogg quote from 2011.

“We could have two referendums. As it happens, it might make more senseto have the second referendum after the renegotiation is completed.”