Brexit, for once some facts.

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
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he seems to be at odd with most of Labour's membership and MPs. It's lethal for Labour if they can't go into the next GE without clarity on brexit.
I think his position is honest. He knows his opinion is at odds with the party and MPs, so he's leaving it to everyone else in a referendum, while not campaigning with his personal opinion.

Would that all politicians were that honest.

Infinitely better than Boris Johnson who campaigned for something he didn't believe in, and still doesn't.
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oyster

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 7, 2017
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I think his position is honest. He knows his opinion is at odds with the party and MPs, so he's leaving it to everyone else in a referendum, while not campaigning with his personal opinion.

Would that all politicians were that honest.

Infinitely better than Boris Johnson who campaigned for something he didn't believe in, and still doesn't.
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Let us imagine there is a GE sometime soon and Labour win, JC is PM.

They hold a referendum and it comes out significantly in favour of remain. We then end up with someone who very much appears to be a leaver as a PM of a government which would by then be having to implement a remain policy. Not a happy situation at all.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
52,870
30,416
Let us imagine there is a GE sometime soon and Labour win, JC is PM.

They hold a referendum and it comes out significantly in favour of remain. We then end up with someone who very much appears to be a leaver as a PM of a government which would by then be having to implement a remain policy. Not a happy situation at all.
I don't see it that way since if the vote is to remain, there is no special policy to apply, we just carry on as we were as members.

It would simply be the end of Brexit, and good riddance.
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daveboy

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Sep 19, 2012
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I don't see it that way since if the vote is to remain, there is no special policy to apply, we just carry on as we were as members.

It would simply be the end of Brexit, and good riddance.
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And hopefully Corbyn would just follow the EU rules that suited us, Just like France, Spain and Hungary etc do already.
 
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Woosh

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May 19, 2012
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Would that all politicians were that honest.
he imposes the negotiation with the EU for his deal on Labour's manifesto.
Shouldn't he let membership commit Labour to remain?
 
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flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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he imposes the negotiation with the EU for his deal on Labour's manifesto.
Shouldn't he let membership commit Labour to remain?
Not really.

Giving the choice to all the people, from electing Labour into power to whether they accept his new deal or elect to Remain is doing just that.

Letting them all choose at every stage with no interference from him is far more democratic than imposing the party's Remain preference or his personal choice of Leave.
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jonathan.agnew

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Dec 27, 2018
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Not at all, Blair didn't create the Syrian situation, our western invention of a non existent Arab Spring created that, stirring unnecessary trouble.



It didn't matter that a minority Shia group remained in charge, Syria was one of the most stable countries in the Middle East. The majority Sunnis ran many successful businesses, their young studied in Western universities and all Syrians had freedom of travel and emigration.

All they had to do was thank their lucky stars, compared with many surrounding countries. But like fools they took a cue from the false Arab Spring talk and thinking the West would assist as in Libya, started a revolutionary coup attempt.

Revolutions that don't overthrow in first few days always fail, and they should have realised that and stopped it immediately. It was our belated Western "help" that prompted Bashir Assad to extreme defensive action, also prompting him to call upon Russian help.

Look at the background, we in the West created the entire Syrian tragedy, but the stubbornness of the Sunni Syrians took it its appalling conclusion, all in the name of religious stupidity.
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Western intervention in the middle east precede the Arab spring, Saddam was a CIA stooge (much like assad is a russian one). Much as in Afghanistan, the uk and us are greatly responsible for the ongoing instability in all of the middle east. I think you may not be seeing the forest for the trees. The dynamics of a tory government exploiting a sectarian division in the uk to undermine democracy isnt that different from what the Assads did since '62. If one look at ones neighbours without sympathy or recognition one can end up being as blind to what's happening to oneself as to what's happening to them.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
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I think you may not be seeing the forest for the trees.
This could hardly be further from the truth, it's precisely because I'm looking at the whole picture that I posted as I did. I repeat, there was nothing wrong with the lives of ordinary Syrian citizens before they decided on a coup attempt which has destroyed much of their country. That Bashir Assad is a dictator is immaterial, it didn't affect the lives of most Sunni Syrians, the proof being that half the Sunnis stayed loyal to the Assad regime. They fought against the revolutionary Sunnis, which is why they would always have won, even without Russian help.

There are and always have been dictatorships affording good lives for their citizens, and we should recognise that rather than being dictatorial ourselves and trying to force democracy on people who often don't want it or are not ready for it. The people of many of the now independent former USSR states will tell you the same and a third of all Russians wish they were back in the USSR.

There's nothing wrong with my compassion and those who've arrived here as refugees are welcome, but they also have to accept responsibilty for what they did, rather than every last one of them playing the innocent victim as they are doing. The revolutionaries didn't come from nowhere and then vanish.

Now all of us will eventually be paying one way or another to rebuild what they wrecked and they will have to rebuild their lives, all totally unnecessary. No doubt virtually all of them wish the coup attempt had never happened and they were back as they'd been before.
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jonathan.agnew

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This could hardly be further from the truth, it's precisely because I'm looking at the whole picture that I posted as I did. I repeat, there was nothing wrong with the lives of ordinary Syrian citizens before they decided on a coup attempt which has destroyed much of their country. That Bashir Assad is a dictator is immaterial, it didn't affect the lives of most Sunni Syrians, the proof being that half the Sunnis stayed loyal to the Assad regime. They fought against the revolutionary Sunnis, which is why they would always have won, even without Russian help.

There are and always have been dictatorships affording good lives for their citizens, and we should recognise that rather than being dictatorial ourselves and trying to force democracy on people who often don't want it or are not ready for it. The people of many of the now independent former USSR states will tell you the same and a third of all Russians wish they were back in the USSR.

There's nothing wrong with my compassion and those who've arrived here as refugees are welcome, but they also have to accept responsibilty for what they did, rather than every last one of them playing the innocent victim as they are doing. The revolutionaries didn't come from nowhere and then vanish.

Now all of us will eventually be paying one way or another to rebuild what they wrecked and they will have to rebuild their lives, all totally unnecessary. No doubt virtually all of them wish the coup attempt had never happened and they were back as they'd been before.
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This is ironic. Reread your post. You have decided what's good for syrians ("there have always been dictatorships affording good lives to citizens"). You may note that I have not passed any judgement on assad, I have simply pointed out that hes a russian proxy (without them he would have been gone a long time ago) and that boris/the fascist wing of the conservatives use the same tactics he and his father did/does. I wouldnt dream of deciding for syrians what's good for them. But I do believe in informed consent, or democracy. treating people like the subjects of their lives, not objects, giving them an informed choice in what happen to them. That's something the assads have never done, for the same reason boris is trying to avoid it. both know their decisions have no democratic legitimacy and their only means to stay in power is to exploit divisions. I dont particularly want to live in a society where this kind of crude manipulation becomes the basis for power.
 

daveboy

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 19, 2012
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"Name calling" is to insult. Suggesting to fingers that he should try not to be a prick is both helpful advice and a statement of fact.
Well, I dont have any **** like you.
[/QUOTE]
I can only guess what that said but I assume it could be classed as name calling.
I like name calling, sticks and stones and all that.
 
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jonathan.agnew

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Dec 27, 2018
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Well, I dont have any **** like you.
I can only guess what that said but I assume it could be classed as name calling.
I like name calling, sticks and stones and all that.
[/QUOTE]
I gather. You like it enough to have fantasies about others liking it. And to dredge through old posts for evidence of that. As you may recall, I was responding to fingers calling me a ****. Name calling isnt a primordial sin. It can even be funny. Not when it's a perseverative repetition of boring al right cliches, though.
 

daveboy

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 19, 2012
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I can only guess what that said but I assume it could be classed as name calling.
I like name calling, sticks and stones and all that.
I gather. You like it enough to have fantasies about others liking it. And to dredge through old posts for evidence of that. As you may recall, I was responding to fingers calling me a ****. Name calling isnt a primordial sin. It can even be funny. Not when it's a perseverative repetition of boring al right cliches, though.
[/QUOTE]


I have a very good memory and could remember you saying it...Just pointing out pot and kettle.
 
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flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
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You have decided what's good for syrians
I haven't decided any such thing, only observed the reality, that the Sunni Syrians had good lives before their attempted coup. They often ran their own profitable businesses, they had freedom of travel and many studied in overseas universities. Their living standards were quite high for that region, they had good housing and didn't go hungry.

They chose to throw that away for possible theoretical political advantage. Nothing to do with any decision of mine since I haven't made one in respect of their life and choices, not could I. But I can have an opinion on the wisdom of what they've done.

I think you let your justifiable hatred of the far right distort your judgment at times when you read the non existent into others posts.
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jonathan.agnew

Esteemed Pedelecer
Dec 27, 2018
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I gather. You like it enough to have fantasies about others liking it. And to dredge through old posts for evidence of that. As you may recall, I was responding to fingers calling me a ****. Name calling isnt a primordial sin. It can even be funny. Not when it's a perseverative repetition of boring al right cliches, though.

I have a very good memory and could remember you saying it...Just pointing out pot and kettle.
[/QUOTE]
My point was about having a debate instead of only name calling, not about name calling as such. The problem with leave voters - including you and fingers - is that you are unable to present a rationale for Brexit, because there isnt one.
 

jonathan.agnew

Esteemed Pedelecer
Dec 27, 2018
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I haven't decided any such thing, only observed the reality, that the Sunni Syrians had good lives before their attempted coup. They often ran their own profitable businesses, they had freedom of travel and many studied in overseas universities. Their living standards were quite high for that region, they had good housing and didn't go hungry.

They chose to throw that away for possible theoretical political advantage. Nothing to do with any decision of mine since I haven't made one in respect of their life and choices, not could I. But I can have an opinion on the wisdom of what they've done.

I think you let your justifiable hatred of the far right distort your judgment at times when you read the non existent into others posts.
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Of course you are entitled to have an opinion about what they did. But you extended that to include what you think they should ( or shouldnt)have done). Which is a way of saying what you think is good for them. I may (as I do) think material advantage doesnt justify oppression (much as I dont think the fact that the vichy regime made lots of money justify collaboration). But it isnt for me to choose for syrians what's best. But they didnt, and do not, have a choice. And this isnt right. I dont hate the far right. But I think many in the uk are blind to the fact that brexit is a vehicle for it. That the debate around brexit was explicitly manufactured for the kind of state capture the far right are attempting at present and that this has been planned and attempted before.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
52,870
30,416
Of course you are entitled to have an opinion about what they did. But you extended that to include what you think they should ( or shouldnt)have done).
The extension is my opinion!!!

If I'd left it unsaid I wouldn't have expressed an opinion.
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