I'm to far gone to join any temperance movement, doesn't stop my enjoyment of OG's posts though.
Brexit, for once some facts.
- Thread starter flecc
- Start date
No I did not but humour isn't your forte is it?
Spare me another sermon, your introductory one was sufficient, and rather lacked tact.
In my humble opinion of course[emoji1] [emoji1]
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If you intend to portray us as intolerant, should you really recommend bad habits?
And how about making an attempt at on "on topic" post if your superior grasp of topic etiquette can manage it?
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From the Express
"
Nigel Farage: I fear for my life – Ukip leader fears violent attacks every day
NIGEL Farage says he cannot leave his house without security after Brexit and Donald Trump’s US presidential election victory."
Well now we get the man making threats of violent public reaction complaining of feeling threatened by violent public reaction?
How novel!
"
Nigel Farage: I fear for my life – Ukip leader fears violent attacks every day
NIGEL Farage says he cannot leave his house without security after Brexit and Donald Trump’s US presidential election victory."
Well now we get the man making threats of violent public reaction complaining of feeling threatened by violent public reaction?
How novel!
Zlatan, some will find it rather bizarre, as I do, that you have continued to post to this thread. A quick look back reveals that you have posted 12 times to the forum, 7 of those to this thread.
Given your criticism of the nature of the thread plus the fact that no-one has twisted your arm and forced you to read it, why do you persist in reading content you find objectionable?
Perhaps you should do as you said you would do in post #7109, above.
Tom
My heart bleeds!
Of course, were he not the commander-in-chief of a motley crew of right-wing extremists and assorted nutters, one of whom committed the vicious murder of Jo Cox MP, perhaps we would not now be suffering this climate of fear he created by his rabble-rousing speeches, inciting the mobs to demonstrate on our streets.
If the despicable weasel should be genuinely afraid, rather than just desperately trying to keep his name in the headlines, then I find a certain karma in that.
Tom
As Christmas approaches, our humanity should cause us to remember those not so well off, those in pain, those without a roof over their head and any others for whom we might feel sympathy......even Brexidiots!
Tom
Tom
Attachments
Am I to deduce from this that the greater part of the population that didn't vote are consequently logically identifiable as "Chickens?"
And worthy only of appearing in Takeways over the Festive season?
How Undemocratic can you get?
On behalf of weasels everywhere I object!, they have simply been misrepresented in the Press by that Cuddly Bunny Mr Murdoch.
Mr Farage is noted for his Witty and Pithy Speeches, he is in fact acknowledged among the cognoscenti as a masterful P*** Artist
If he is afraid or his safety I have a helpful suggestion: he could nip across the channel and take his MEP's seat in the EU parliament.
No enemy would expect to find him there, now would they?
OG
If it was an attempt at humour...apologies.
On topic for Tom..
Can one of you remain experts please explain why the free market is so emphatically linked to free movement. For both rich and poor countries its a flawed principal. ( look what's happening to poorer parts of EU, their working population have gone, replaced by what ?
OG claims its nit new. His examples were wrong, the countries mentioned have free movement accross states.. Its been and is a massive social experiment which is failing. The poorer regions get poorer, the richer richer.Poorer lose cheap labour, get zero investment and become dependant on eu handouts (Greece/ Lithuania/Portugal/Spain) The richer develop right wing tendencies as they are inundated with cheap labour.( UK, France,Germany) The only ones that really benefit are the super rich ( Luxembourg etc)
But having said that , the UK is between a rock and a hard place. Farage or Blair ? One the presidents poodle, the other his attack dog ,with no teeth...You couldn't write it. Nobody would believe it..
Democracy is dead. Blair killed it with his lies along with thousands of people. He should be serving time for war crimes but he isn't. He,s a political prostitute. Sees the disillusioned remainers and champions them for his own gain.
Cameron is only marginally better.
Its a farce, the whole issue. From Junkhers to Osbourne and Farage to Blair.
As for a second referendum ? I still wouldn't vote, none of them are capable of running country. They have proved it. There isn't a viable choice..in or out, labour or cons. Its all ****** for individuals to further their own careers.
If it was an attempt at humour...apologies.
On topic for Tom..
Can one of you remain experts please explain why the free market is so emphatically linked to free movement. For both rich and poor countries its a flawed principal. ( look what's happening to poorer parts of EU, their working population have gone, replaced by what ?
OG claims its nit new. His examples were wrong, the countries mentioned have free movement accross states.. Its been and is a massive social experiment which is failing. The poorer regions get poorer, the richer richer.Poorer lose cheap labour, get zero investment and become dependant on eu handouts (Greece/ Lithuania/Portugal/Spain) The richer develop right wing tendencies as they are inundated with cheap labour.( UK, France,Germany) The only ones that really benefit are the super rich ( Luxembourg etc)
But having said that , the UK is between a rock and a hard place. Farage or Blair ? One the presidents poodle, the other his attack dog ,with no teeth...You couldn't write it. Nobody would believe it..
Democracy is dead. Blair killed it with his lies along with thousands of people. He should be serving time for war crimes but he isn't. He,s a political prostitute. Sees the disillusioned remainers and champions them for his own gain.
Cameron is only marginally better.
Its a farce, the whole issue. From Junkhers to Osbourne and Farage to Blair.
As for a second referendum ? I still wouldn't vote, none of them are capable of running country. They have proved it. There isn't a viable choice..in or out, labour or cons. Its all ****** for individuals to further their own careers.
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Welcome at last to the discussion.
Well done! on topic and apart from a different point of view on the history and success of free movement, which does indeed create short term problems that inevitably remedy themselves over time, your opinion on the state of political competence is largely accurate.
Free movement of peoples I would remind you is the only reason Human Beings do not exclusively live in Africa.
What we seek in this debate of ours is to try to see some way out of this dead end of a political system that the Westminster Bubble has become and indeed created.
The moral maze has us all asking if indeed a rational way forward exists.
Where do I stand in this debate?
My belief is that inevitably for the Human Race to continue on this benighted planet of ours, it has to seek ways to govern itself on a gradually increasing scale rather than the boom and bust that all civilisations have experienced so far, and end up with a world Government as an ultimate goal.
The EU is indeed an obviously flawed organisation second only in undesirability to going back to being an offshore introvert nightmare of a country under the even heavier, and lets be honest utterly inept cadre of exploiters of the public we jokingly call politicians.
Basically my premise is that the EU is capable of being reformed, but certainly not by us being "represented" there by little more than Anarchists of the character of Farage, and certainly not by us fleeing from the challenge in full retreat, and pulling up the Drawbridge behind us.
And we could really benefit from not having a so called "Free Press" that would have been a source of pride to Paul Joseph Goebbels and his admirers the Rothermere dynasty.
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But this simply isn't true, free movement coupled to freedom of trade has been working, you just haven't been looking for the evidence. Here's some examples:
External manufacturers like VW, Fiat, Suzuki et al have set up manufacturing plants in several eastern European countries, bringing them rising wages and much more employment.
Those who haven't found employment in eastern Europe have come to us and filled desperate needs in the NHS, social care and crop picking, sending money back home to further lift their former countries.
Their skilled tradesmen have been offering us better service, which will force our homegrown tradesmen to raise their all-too-often former unsatisfactory standards and reduce their rip-off prices.
A number of British farmers, struggling under our increasingly difficult farms economy have sold up and moved to Eastern European countries like Bulgaria and Czech republic. The fertile flat plains there when utilised with modern farming methods are proving immensely productive and profitable and they won't be coming back.
Large numbers of Britons fed up with our insane housing prices have move to eastern Europe. My sister is one of them, her countryside house with land in Bulgaria cost £10,000 four years ago. She loves it there, wonderful friendly people, a garden that grows walnuts, grapes. plums etc., what's not to like.
Outside of the EU, Turkey allowed some 3.5 millions to go to Germany soon after WW2 to help rebuild and grow that wrecked country. They've contributed greatly to Germany's incredible success, they've fully integrated and their generations of offspring are indistinguishable from many native Germans. That's why Germany's leaders have been happy to accept a futher million plus of immigration now, they know it will ultimately lead to still greater success.
And now in last two decades Turkey has taken a cue from its relationship with Germany and become a very successful manufacturing nation, exporting widely and becoming much richer and more fully employed in consequence. So much so in fact that they've lost some of their former keenness to join the EU.
There are many other examples both in Europe and around the world, all showing that free movement and free trade when coupled become a great success. But like all change, time is needed, when the doors are first thrown open success doesn't magically appear, it takes time to grow it.
As to why we think free movement is good, it's because it is fundamental. This planet we are born into is ours by right, not just a little patch of it with wholly contrived often mythical boundaries. That's the world of plants, we are creatures that move to the circumstances that best suit our life.
.
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Dont agree with last 2 posts...but good posts none the less.
Flecc..Go and ask folk in Lithuania about them.loosing a whole generation of working people, firms unable to invest , even if they wished.
The whole process is an experiment. Nobody really knows its outcome.
As much as your responses were well written they did not address my question. Why is access to free market emphatically linked to free movement ? If we negotiated free access to Chinese, Australian, or who ever are you really assuming, telling me there would be free movement with those countries. I think not.The two principles should be independent and negotiable by individual countries within or without eu.
Flecc..Go and ask folk in Lithuania about them.loosing a whole generation of working people, firms unable to invest , even if they wished.
The whole process is an experiment. Nobody really knows its outcome.
As much as your responses were well written they did not address my question. Why is access to free market emphatically linked to free movement ? If we negotiated free access to Chinese, Australian, or who ever are you really assuming, telling me there would be free movement with those countries. I think not.The two principles should be independent and negotiable by individual countries within or without eu.
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The Daily Mail have been having a "Funny Turn"
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-3974212/DAN-HODGES-Donald-Trump-destroyed-great-Brexit-fantasy.htmlt isn't
And it isn't going down well with the readers!
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-3974212/DAN-HODGES-Donald-Trump-destroyed-great-Brexit-fantasy.htmlt isn't
And it isn't going down well with the readers!
Clearly you do not realise the purpose behind the EU.
"
The Treaty of Rome, officially the Treaty establishing the European Economic Community (TEEC), is an international agreement that led to the creation of the European Economic Community (EEC). It was signed on 25 March 1957 by Belgium, France, Italy, Luxembourg, the Netherlands and West Germany and came into force on 1 January 1958. It remains one of the two most important treaties in the modern-day European Union (EU).
The TEEC proposed the progressive reduction of customs duties and the establishment of a customs union. It proposed to create a single market for goods, labour, services, and capital across the EEC's member states. It also proposed the creation of common transport and agriculture policies and a European social fund and established the European Commission.
And once again the situation in Lithuania is typical of the short term difficulties that have to be overcome, they will not be worse off in the long run, and the money coming into their country has benefited the people receiving it immensely, and will in turn cause an increase of consumerism that will encourage local industries, that let's face is have been pathetic performers in the past.
I didn't address it because the answer is so well known. Ever since the Treaty of Maastricht the course of the EU towards being a single country has been set.
It follows that all the elements of being a single country are aimed for, which must include complete freedom of internal movement and labour.
Flecc..Go and ask folk in Lithuania about them.loosing a whole generation of working people, firms unable to invest , even if they wished.
The whole process is an experiment. Nobody really knows its outcome.
Lithuania after regaining independance from Soviet control seems quite happy to choose to go with EU association and protection via NATO from alternative threat of resurgent Russia.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/russia-lithuania-defence-missile-system-investment-invasion-fears-a7335561.html
The whole process is an experiment. Nobody really knows its outcome.
Lithuania after regaining independance from Soviet control seems quite happy to choose to go with EU association and protection via NATO from alternative threat of resurgent Russia.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/russia-lithuania-defence-missile-system-investment-invasion-fears-a7335561.html
That's the sort of short term problem I know exists, but as I said, time will provide the solutions and healing. I've provided examples. You know the old saying, one must break eggs to make an omelette.
Not so, we know time solves problems, so there's nothing experimental about that, and the target is already known.
There's no magic and no miracles, patience is necessary to achieve change, and great change demands greater patience.
.
Think Flecc has hit nail on head, in that his assumption for EU to be successful it must become a single nation. Unfortunately there is no way on earth that will ever happen and its certainly not what folk thought( accepted big assumption) when we had the first joke vote ( referendum) AFTER already having joined..
I don't want to be simply an EU Citizen and neither does another 52% of voting public.
Perhaps all the remain campaigners should be as honest as Flecc, and point out for eu to work all its individual constituents must hand over sovereignty??? No thanks. Blair , Cameron,Osbourne, and Farage are bad enough but Junkhers and his sycophants are both unelected and far worse..Do we really need another layer if corruption. One corrupt but elected governance is enough waste.. Thanks but no thanks. Blair should be shot, Juhnkers locked up. Cameron deported. Osbourne made to work at some inner city School.
Think best solution is reestablish monarchy. Keeps number of scavengers down and in one place.
I don't want to be simply an EU Citizen and neither does another 52% of voting public.
Perhaps all the remain campaigners should be as honest as Flecc, and point out for eu to work all its individual constituents must hand over sovereignty??? No thanks. Blair , Cameron,Osbourne, and Farage are bad enough but Junkhers and his sycophants are both unelected and far worse..Do we really need another layer if corruption. One corrupt but elected governance is enough waste.. Thanks but no thanks. Blair should be shot, Juhnkers locked up. Cameron deported. Osbourne made to work at some inner city School.
Think best solution is reestablish monarchy. Keeps number of scavengers down and in one place.