Brompton Blues

[PeteThePen]

Good Day Pedalelecers

I am one of the many wrinkly Boomers residing in Aberystwyth in western Cymru (Wales). As most of you will know Cymru is a land of Dragons and Hills so my 20 year old 6 speed a la cart Brompton has been struggling. It seemed sensible, therefore, to splash some of the Kids Inheritance (there being no kids) and get a 12 speed T Line. That has been painted and then Tony Castles of Nano fame added power assist. The result is a nice ride that is unfazed by all the hills, if a little hard on the bum (100 psi tyre pressure).

However, I have two problems to solve. Firstly, Tony never got around to finish off the fitting of the running lights. He has left a socket for me to connect into, but I do not recognise it nor do Iknow where to suitable connectors. If anybody recognises I would be grateful if you could explain. (See photo). Happily I can cope with the wiring.




My second problem is that the machine has just died on me with the error message 03 - Motor Hall Sensor. Now I happen to know that Tony C is currently overwhelmed with running Nano on his own given that, like me, he is also a wrinkly Boomer but also disabled. I am sure that he would fix the bike in the end but I am looking for results soon. So my second question is whether anybody can recommend a competent e-bike shop that could fix the problem that is within a reasonable distance. Aberystwyth to Shrewsbury is 2.5 hrs, while Swansea is half a day and similarly Bangor.

I look forward to your advice.

Regards

Pete

 

[saneagle]

The connector is a Dean's - also known as T-connectors. They're all over Ebay and Aliexpress.

The common reason for hall sensor error is the motor connector pushed in tight but not all the way to the marked line, or motor cable damage.

It's not possible to help further without seeing photos of what you have.

If you can bring it to Telford, I can fix it for you, though it might need two visits if it needs any parts or difficult tests.

 

[PeteThePen]

The connector is a Dean's - also known as T-connectors. They're all over Ebay and Aliexpress.

The common reason for hall sensor error is the motor connector pushed in tight but not all the way to the marked line, or motor cable damage.

It's not possible to help further without seeing photos of what you have.

If you can bring it to Telford, I can fix it for you, though it might need two visits if it needs any parts or difficult tests.

Many thanks for the informtion and the suggested possible solution for the 03 error. For the latter I am very pleased to say that you were spot on. The cable to the motor looked as if it was tight but a serious push took it a little further. The motor now performs, albeit under no load conditions. When we get a bit of fine weather (tomorrow) I will take it for a proper test.

I see what you mean about Dean connectors being all over the place. I think I will need some serious homework to find the best variant for the job.

Thanks again for the suggestions and the repair offer. Most appreciated.

 

[Tony1951]

What an excellent outcome for the OPs problem.

Big smiles all round I should think.

 

[saneagle]

What an excellent outcome for the OPs problem.

Big smiles all round I should think.

What we need is a confirmation statement on the forum enrolment page. As well as "I have read the terms....." there should be another tick box, "I promise not to make any posts until I confirm that I have checked my motor connector and it definitely reaches the line on the outer connector".

Of course that would only apply to people with hub-motors, so it needs to come after an option that tells you to tick the one that applies, crank-drive or hub-motor? If they tick crank-drive, instead of the above confirmation, there needs to be one that says, " I confirm I'm nuts, but would like to become a forum member anyway. Please take pity on me and be kind to me".

 

[Tony1951]

What we need is a confirmation statement on the forum enrolment page. As well as "I have read the terms....." there should be another tick box, "I promise not to make any posts until I confirm that I have checked my motor connector and it definitely reaches the line on the outer connector".

Of course that would only apply to people with hub-motors, so it needs to come after an option that tells you to tick the one that applies, crank-drive or hub-motor? If they tick crank-drive, instead of the above confirmation, there needs to be one that says, " I confirm I'm nuts, but would like to become a forum member anyway. Please take pity on me and be kind to me".

You just inspired me to take my crank motor bike out for a ride. I have not used it in a while, and it needs a bit of use.

In fact it will be getting used next week since my French niece, who has spent the last fortnight gallivanting about Botswana on a Safari holiday will be coming to stay with me and I will need both bikes in good order so we can go for a ride around Northumberland.



I hope it won't be a let down for her after her adventures among the lions and elephants. Maybe I can enhance her experience by letting her ride the hub motor bike....

Not so sure really. I'll think about it.

 

[esuark]

"Botswana" always makes "us" laugh, my ex son in law thought it was an African greeting. You can imagine the ribbing the poor fellow used to get.

 

[saneagle]

You just inspired me to take my crank motor bike out for a ride. I have not used it in a while, and it needs a bit of use.

In fact it will be getting used next week since my French niece, who has spent the last fortnight gallivanting about Botswana on a Safari holiday will be coming to stay with me and I will need both bikes in good order so we can go for a ride around Northumberland.

View attachment 64006

I hope it won't be a let down for her after her adventures among the lions and elephants. Maybe I can enhance her experience by letting her ride the hub motor bike....

Not so sure really. I'll think about it.

View attachment 64007

Botswana?? You can't even stroke the cats there. Is it the NE you live? You can taker her here, which is much better:

One moment, please...

 

[Tony1951]

Botswana?? You can't even stroke the cats there. Is it the NE you live? You can taker her here, which is much better:

One moment, please...

Those cats are a lot smaller than the one which I saw in the video which ran up the tree when they drove up in an open sided vehicle. It was about twenty feet away from them, and there were maybe five of them. The still shot is the same cat that just suddenly ran up into the tree. I can't post it easily so, I can only describe it.

I suppose you are right - you can't stroke that kind of cat, or they might stroke you and break your neck....

Maybe I can introduce my niece to my neighbour's cat Puzzle. She's tame enough.

Thanks for inspiring me to take out my crank motor bike. I'd forgotten how good it is on the hills. I rode it up to Vindolanda during this hot afternoon. It just ate the hills. My niece can ride that around here and I will just eat dust behind her on the Argos special. That one is not a great hill climber as you know.

This afternoon near Vindolanda

 

[saneagle]

Those cats are a lot smaller than the one which I saw in the video which ran up the tree when they drove up in an open sided vehicle. It was about twenty feet away from them, and there were maybe five of them. The still shot is the same cat that just suddenly ran up into the tree. I can't post it easily so, I can only describe it.

I suppose you are right - you can't stroke that kind of cat, or they might stroke you and break your neck....

Maybe I can introduce my niece to my neighbour's cat Puzzle. She's tame enough.

Thanks for inspiring me to take out my crank motor bike. I'd forgotten how good it is on the hills. I rode it up to Vindolanda during this hot afternoon. It just ate the hills. My niece can ride that around here and I will just eat dust behind her on the Argos special. That one is not a great hill climber as you know.

This afternoon near Vindolanda

View attachment 64008

I guess it's one better than a front hub-motor, so it's not as bad as it could be.

 

[Tony1951]

I guess it's one better than a front hub-motor, so it's not as bad as it could be.

Well I've never ridden a front hub motor, but I can see a lot of reasons why it might not be the first choice of configuration.

I think there is mileage on the old adage on this stuff - 'Horses for courses'. I think it probably refers to the way some horses go better on certain types of terrain.

The same is true of motor placement. As you well know, and have acknowledged I think; hilly terrain can show up a serious disadvantage in some hub motor configurations with normal sized wheels - the motor can become so slow under steep conditions that they run inefficiently. Crank motors don't have that problem if the rider is sane enough to change gear so the motor never labours. They have additional complication though in that they run on the bike's own transmission system. This may break down due to the heavy loads applied.

The advantage of crank motors may very well only show up on steep hills, but that is the kind of terrain that some of us deal with regularly.

 

[Tony1951]

"Botswana" always makes "us" laugh, my ex son in law thought it was an African greeting. You can imagine the ribbing the poor fellow used to get.

I think he might have got that from that 1960s children's TV programme which went by the name 'Daktari'.

It was stuffed with what would now be called racist stereotypes and always had rather servile African employees on some sort of safari camp, bowing to white men in shorts and calling the white men something like 'Bwana'. It wouldn't go down well these days and would be banned, I'd say. It wasn't seen as very good even sixty years ago. My only interest in it at the time was as i remember a young rather busty blonde woman in tight shorts and a tight khaki shirt. I wouldn't have watched it if she hadn't been on.

I just looked it up and Bwana may be a corruption of the Swahili greeting 'Jambo Bwana'. It is maybe a bit like 'Botswana' to those who don't know - like me.

That lion is on drugs for sure

 

[saneagle]

Well I've never ridden a front hub motor, but I can see a lot of reasons why it might not be the first choice of configuration.

I think there is mileage on the old adage on this stuff - 'Horses for courses'. I think it probably refers to the way some horses go better on certain types of terrain.

The same is true of motor placement. As you well know, and have acknowledged I think; hilly terrain can show up a serious disadvantage in some hub motor configurations with normal sized wheels - the motor can become so slow under steep conditions that they run inefficiently. Crank motors don't have that problem if the rider is sane enough to change gear so the motor never labours. They have additional complication though in that they run on the bike's own transmission system. This may break down due to the heavy loads applied.

The advantage of crank motors may very well only show up on steep hills, but that is the kind of terrain that some of us deal with regularly.

Hub-motors can out-perform crank-motors up hills. You can't generalise. Remember, the 250w Heinzmann cargo hub-motor system can drag 500kg up a 16% hill. Yours can't do that.

 

[Tony1951]

Hub-motors can out-perform crank-motors up hills. You can't generalise. Remember, the 250w Heinzmann cargo hub-motor system can drag 500kg up a 16% hill. Yours can't do that.

Can you say what it is you dislike so much about crank motors apart from the obvious wear on the chain and sprockets which goes on?

I have followed many of your posts denouncing crank motors, but for some reason, I can't recall what it is that you hate so much about the idea of them.

I do recall posts from you and others complaining that early Bafang BBS types got water inside them and died, and I know from elsewhere the early versions had poor crank shaft seals and some destroyed bearings because of water contamination.

Some of the early ones also had inadequate mosfets and had failures there, but this was only on early versions.

The one I have which is about five years old and has done about 2000 miles, is silent, adequately powerful (80NM torque) and it has run faultlessly while I have had it pulling me sometimes up 1:5 hills. I have had it for four years.

You once said to me that your hub motor was bound to be quieter than my BBS01. I have normal hearing and I can only ever hear mine in certain wind conditions. It just gives off a slight hissing sound and is barely audible. I can easily hear the Argos hub motor, though I have nothing bad to say about that bike given how cheap it was. That one is now at 1100 miles give or take.

 

[StuartsProjects]

12 speed T Line. That has been painted and then Tony Castles of Nano fame added power assist

So an electric Titanium framed Brompton.

Make us all jealous, tell us how much it weighs ..........

 

[Woosh]

Can you say what it is you dislike so much about crank motors apart from the obvious wear on the chain and sprockets which goes on?

Saneagle has had a lot of crank motors. He even created his own before Bosch made it what is now the cornerstone of the ebike industry. I think Saneagle is a bit obsessed with ironing out all weaknesses in ebikes. Crank motors have more weaknesses than hub motors.
I accept that all solutions are compromises. I would just have both.

 

[Peter.Bridge]

With the 15.5 mph top speed legislation, then if you are cycling mainly on roads then a hub motor has to operate between 7-8 mph up a really steep hill and 15.5 mph top speed. There are plenty of 201 rpm hub motors with 26" or 700c wheels that will happily operate pretty efficiently between those speeds without the speed falling to a level where they are really inefficient and overheat. They are a very modular solution - totally independent of the bike pedal drivetrain. A wider speed range increases the need for gearing to keep the motor in its efficient range

 

[saneagle]

Can you say what it is you dislike so much about crank motors apart from the obvious wear on the chain and sprockets which goes on?

I have followed many of your posts denouncing crank motors, but for some reason, I can't recall what it is that you hate so much about the idea of them.

I do recall posts from you and others complaining that early Bafang BBS types got water inside them and died, and I know from elsewhere the early versions had poor crank shaft seals and some destroyed bearings because of water contamination.

Some of the early ones also had inadequate mosfets and had failures there, but this was only on early versions.

The one I have which is about five years old and has done about 2000 miles, is silent, adequately powerful (80NM torque) and it has run faultlessly while I have had it pulling me sometimes up 1:5 hills. I have had it for four years.

You once said to me that your hub motor was bound to be quieter than my BBS01. I have normal hearing and I can only ever hear mine in certain wind conditions. It just gives off a slight hissing sound and is barely audible. I can easily hear the Argos hub motor, though I have nothing bad to say about that bike given how cheap it was. That one is now at 1100 miles give or take.

I don't hate crank-motors. I use one about three times a week. I'd rather have an ebike with a crank-motor than a bike with no motor any day. They work, but not as good as hub-motors.

If I do an object comparison, I'd say crank-motors are more expensive, give a worse ride, they're less reliable, noisier and more difficult to regulate the torque Compared with a suitable hub-motor. The only real advantage they give is the more centralised mass, which gives slightly better handling.

I'm an engineer, so I'm always looking at how systems work. The purpose of an ebike is to use electric energy to provide torque to a wheel so that it's easier or more comfortable to pedal. What's the simplest, cheapest and most efficient way that can be achieved?

Many guys try a 12A 36v ebike with a hub-motor, and find that it doesn't give enough torque to go up hills, so they switch to crank motors, then they start spreading the myth that hub-motors don't go up hills, but they would have been much happier if they'd tried a hub-motor at 48v, and with a few more amps if necessary. When you have such a bike, the whole concept of a crank-motor seems daft.

One more thing that a lot of people don't know. We used to have the ebike World Championships in Bristol, which was a race for legal bikes up a very steep hill (Park St). The hub-motors always beat the crank-motors. The last year they had it was 2014 or 2013, when it was won by an Oxygen MTB with a 250w Bafang CST hub-motor ridden by their warehouse assistant, who's only experience was riding his catalogue bike the one mile to work when it wasn't raining. IIRC, the previous year was won by a Brompton with a 48v hub-motor. If it didn't win, it got second place.

 

[Tony1951]

Saneagle has had a lot of crank motors. He even created his own before Bosch made it what is now the cornerstone of the ebike industry. I think Saneagle is a bit obsessed with ironing out all weaknesses in ebikes. Crank motors have more weaknesses than hub motors.
I accept that all solutions are compromises. I would just have both.

I've seen that home made crank drive on his Youtube channel. It looked interesting and was well put together, except i think the pedal cranks did not have a freewheel clutch and continuously rotated when the motor was running. Like a fixie, or a penny farthing, they might end up smacking you in the back of the calf. It was a good effort i thought.

 

[Tony1951]

Having got accustomed to riding the wee Argos electric folder about this hilly area, with its puny 36v 8 amp controller, the BBS01 WITH 36V X 15 amps seemed like it was supercharged on the hills. I could set the BBS01 controller to 20 amps, but i don't need it, and 15 amps is kinder to the battery and the transmission.

On the Argos bike, the very gentle upper current limit will likely make the small battery live a lot longer. The battery format is i think 10s3p, so a max of 8 amps and average of 4 amps gives the cells an easy time. Not sure how long it would last if i did the KT 12 amp conversion. After about 55 complete battery cycles, it still has the same range as when i got it.

I am estimating the cycles from the fact that its average battery range is 20 miles and it has covered 1100 miles (1100/20=55). Rough and ready, but likely not far off.