Bulgarian and Romanian Immigrants

Scimitar

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jul 31, 2010
1,770
38
Ireland
I suspect that agreement on which 5.7 billion to 'finally solve' would be difficult to reach...:(
Natural causes. I don't see anything wrong with that. If we don't grasp this nettle at some point the natural causes will be bloody, brutal and violent. Much better to have some sort of gradual decline, managed properly.
 

mike killay

Esteemed Pedelecer
Feb 17, 2011
2,842
1,461
Too right. Unfortunately us in the "advanced countries" are stuck with traditional capitalism i.e. obsessed with "growth" so we can all consume even more stuff that we don't really need. It's only the Green types in this country that see a different, more pleasant future, by adopting a different course.

)
Not fully understanding economics, I have always wondered about this need for growth. Right now politicians are sighing with relief because we have 'growth'
Yes, I like my computer, mobile phone and electric bike, but for most of my life these were not available and I didn't seem to miss what I did not know about. Just as none of us at present miss the next big thing to be developed because we don't know about it.
But I bet our children or grandchildren will wonder how we managed without.
 

El Champiero

Pedelecer
Nov 25, 2013
119
30
Bristol
The whole immigration thing needs to be discussed sensibly and be totally evidence based. Then and only then can people make true sense of what it happening.

Making stupid comments about being flooded by Romanians is just utterly stupid and insensitive. Where is the research based on evidence? There isn't any - its just guesswork.

The problem is we have idiots like Mark Reckless (I think he is the pric* behind the "Go Home" vans) making statements that pander to nonsensical right wing newspapers. Our politicians have failed us and do not deserve to be where they are. It seems that to make it as a politician you need to have gone to Eton. Is it any wonder why people say that they are out of touch.

Take a look at this article. This shows how ridiculous the whole thing has got. Romanian ambassador mocks MPs and media waiting for immigrants | UK news | The Guardian

When the ambassador of Romania speaks out against UK government policy that affects their citizens, you know it has got to the stupid stage.

The CBI also has spoken out about how emotive immigration debates are not helping the country:
CBI: 'emotive' immigration debate harming recovery - Telegraph
 

trex

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 15, 2011
7,703
2,669
uk population: 1963: 53.65M, 2013: 63.23 and the graph shows clear acceleration in the last 3 years. In the same time, uk income per capita drops by 25% in comparision with the EU28.
Clearly, immigration from poorer regions of the EU puts enormously unequal pressure on the low skilled natives competing for low wage jobs, social housing, health service, state pension. No wonder they seek refuge in the welfare system.
The high skilled britons and the multiple home owners will continue doing very well whatever the weather.
 

tillson

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 29, 2008
5,145
3,002
The whole immigration thing needs to be discussed sensibly and be totally evidence based. Then and only then can people make true sense of what it happening.

Making stupid comments about being flooded by Romanians is just utterly stupid and insensitive. Where is the research based on evidence? There isn't any - its just guesswork.

The problem is we have idiots like Mark Reckless (I think he is the pric* behind the "Go Home" vans) making statements that pander to nonsensical right wing newspapers. Our politicians have failed us and do not deserve to be where they are. It seems that to make it as a politician you need to have gone to Eton. Is it any wonder why people say that they are out of touch.

Take a look at this article. This shows how ridiculous the whole thing has got. Romanian ambassador mocks MPs and media waiting for immigrants | UK news | The Guardian

When the ambassador of Romania speaks out against UK government policy that affects their citizens, you know it has got to the stupid stage.

The CBI also has spoken out about how emotive immigration debates are not helping the country:
CBI: 'emotive' immigration debate harming recovery - Telegraph
I think that you are correct about having a sensible evidence based debate on immigration, it definitely needs to happen. The problem is that the three main political parties don't won't to discuss the issues in any depth.

Because politicians have cheated, lied, broken promises, stolen public money, displayed the most appalling hypocrisy, demonstrated breathtaking incompetence and generally failed to represent the people who appointed them, the public don't trust them or anything that they say. A high proportion are also career politicians parachuted into safe party seats and bring with them very little life experience and even less interest in the local area which they serve. And it is understandable that they have little interest in the local area, they have never lived there and no nothing about the people. Our MP, a fat barrister, seems to think that the fact she spent one summer night sleeping, "rough" in a cardboard box and ate a burger endears her to the people. This is bound to breed fear and suspicion within people when they see immigrants arriving in the country and the politicians seemingly allowing it to happen, concentrating their time on matters that no one gives a stuff about, whilst simultaneously telling everyone that it is good for the country. That fear and suspicion of immigrants, brought about by our politicians refusing to discuss the issue is fuel for the ultra right wing element.

I don't know how you solve the problem of an honest debate. Politicians have inflicted so much damage upon themselves and parliament is so full of the wrong type of people, it is impossible to lay the facts bare and to let people form an unbiased opinion. The Daily Wail and Guardian are not the places to glean the fact from, but sadly that is where people turn to because of the vacuum of Westminster. Shameful.
 
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oldman

Finding my (electric) wheels
Dec 16, 2013
17
0
Glyn Ceiriog N Wales
British employers are advertising in Eastern Europe only; offering jobs below minimum rate "hot-bed" accommodation and nigh on serfdom conditions attaching employees to a employer unable to move; somewhat like "minimum hours" employment some British workers are locked in. Don't blame the immigrants blame the rules and regulations that can't be enforced due to lack of resources. See todays (03/01/2014) Guardian to read what's happening in this wonderful free country of ours.
 

tillson

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 29, 2008
5,145
3,002
A few years ago, I used to wonder why politicians wouldn't discuss immigration. Maybe I should be looking at the long game....

v_children_in_darton.jpg
 

Clockwise

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jun 28, 2013
438
53
British employers are advertising in Eastern Europe only; offering jobs below minimum rate "hot-bed" accommodation and nigh on serfdom conditions attaching employees to a employer unable to move; somewhat like "minimum hours" employment some British workers are locked in. Don't blame the immigrants blame the rules and regulations that can't be enforced due to lack of resources. See todays (03/01/2014) Guardian to read what's happening in this wonderful free country of ours.
They are all on apprenticeship schemes to make them highly qualified "stock distribution agents" instead of "shelf stacker boys" and that is backed by the government or they are working in workfare placements made by the job center. The company's pay taxes applicable for them trading from a tax haven HQ so I don't see a problem...

Oh wait... yeah that could be a problem.
 

John F

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 3, 2013
397
48
Not fully understanding economics, I have always wondered about this need for growth. Right now politicians are sighing with relief because we have 'growth'
Yes, I like my computer, mobile phone and electric bike, but for most of my life these were not available and I didn't seem to miss what I did not know about. Just as none of us at present miss the next big thing to be developed because we don't know about it.
But I bet our children or grandchildren will wonder how we managed without.
We didn't have supermarkets years ago either, but who shops today without driving to their local Tesco? "Growth" is incompatible with a sustainable future, but you'll never hear Tory/Labour/LibDem admit to that.
 

El Champiero

Pedelecer
Nov 25, 2013
119
30
Bristol
I don't think our benefits system is being pressured by immigrants to the extent that certain individuals would have you believe:

Bloody immigrants, coming over here and paying our bills | Adam Smith Institute

On another point, the benefit system works reasonably well considering the scale of it. Benefit fraud whilst certainly a problem which needs dealing with, causes only a tiny amount of loss (estimated at 0.7% in 2012-2013). This is from the governments own figures. 0.7% is absolutely tiny as a proportion of the total budget - it really is. So from the governments own figures, it looks like the DWP generally get it right most of the time.

The money lost to underpaid taxes and companies using tax havens and the rest (banking fraud etc etc) is colossal in comparison.

As usual, the government use the benefit fraud thing completely out of proportion and penalise all those who use it rather than take a measured response to the problem. IDS also blames his own civil servants for the balls-up in Universal Credit. I know someone who works for him and told him UC would not work due to several valid reasons. He didn't listen - none of those idiots listen to their civil servants - they just do what they think will win votes. That is all they give a shi* about. They certainly do not work for the people. My friend also tells me that "In the thick of it" is quite realistic.

On another point, do not believe the persona Boris Johnson shows to the cameras. The reality behind the scenes is very different.
 

Scimitar

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jul 31, 2010
1,770
38
Ireland
IDS also blames his own civil servants for the balls-up in Universal Credit. I know someone who works for him and told him UC would not work due to several valid reasons. He didn't listen - none of those idiots listen to their civil servants - they just do what they think will win votes. That is all they give a shi* about. They certainly do not work for the people. My friend also tells me that "In the thick of it" is quite realistic.


On another point, do not believe the persona Boris Johnson shows to the cameras. The reality behind the scenes is very different.
Neither of those come as a great surprise - psychopaths are good at those things.
 

El Champiero

Pedelecer
Nov 25, 2013
119
30
Bristol
You will also see IDS often makes statements with the words "I believe that....(x policy will do y)".

Errrr...shouldn't policies be based on evidence not on your beliefs! He is an intellectual pygmy at best.
 

trex

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 15, 2011
7,703
2,669
I don't think our benefits system is being pressured by immigrants to the extent that certain individuals would have you believe:

Bloody immigrants, coming over here and paying our bills | Adam Smith Institute

On another point, the benefit system works reasonably well considering the scale of it. Benefit fraud whilst certainly a problem which needs dealing with, causes only a tiny amount of loss (estimated at 0.7% in 2012-2013). This is from the governments own figures. 0.7% is absolutely tiny as a proportion of the total budget - it really is. So from the governments own figures, it looks like the DWP generally get it right most of the time.

The money lost to underpaid taxes and companies using tax havens and the rest (banking fraud etc etc) is colossal in comparison.

As usual, the government use the benefit fraud thing completely out of proportion and penalise all those who use it rather than take a measured response to the problem. IDS also blames his own civil servants for the balls-up in Universal Credit. I know someone who works for him and told him UC would not work due to several valid reasons. He didn't listen - none of those idiots listen to their civil servants - they just do what they think will win votes. That is all they give a shi* about. They certainly do not work for the people. My friend also tells me that "In the thick of it" is quite realistic.

On another point, do not believe the persona Boris Johnson shows to the cameras. The reality behind the scenes is very different.
this is a well known fact:
The red squirrel is classed as a native species to the UK. The first evidence of the red squirrel in Britain appears at the end of the last Ice Age (10,000 years ago). Red squirrels were once the only squirrel species in Britain and were widely distributed.

The grey squirrel is classed as an invasive non-native species in the UK. Grey squirrels have been introduced to the UK at various locations since the 19th Century. They were first introduced in 1876 by the Victorians, who regarded the grey squirrel as an exotic species.

The spread of grey squirrels is the main threat to red squirrel survival and the main reason for their catastrophic decline in Britain. Grey squirrels compete more successfully than red squirrels for food and habitat, they are larger and more robust, and can digest seeds with high tannin content, such as acorns, more efficiently. This means grey squirrels can access a more abundant food supply than red squirrels. As a result, the arrival of grey squirrels in an area occupied by red squirrels tends to cause reduced red squirrel breeding and survival rates leading to a gradual decline in their numbers.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
46,167
22,882
The red squirrel is classed as a native species to the UK. The first evidence of the red squirrel in Britain appears at the end of the last Ice Age (10,000 years ago). Red squirrels were once the only squirrel species in Britain and were widely distributed.

The grey squirrel is classed as an invasive non-native species in the UK. Grey squirrels have been introduced to the UK at various locations since the 19th Century. They were first introduced in 1876 by the Victorians, who regarded the grey squirrel as an exotic species.

The spread of grey squirrels is the main threat to red squirrel survival and the main reason for their catastrophic decline in Britain. Grey squirrels compete more successfully than red squirrels for food and habitat, they are larger and more robust, and can digest seeds with high tannin content, such as acorns, more efficiently. This means grey squirrels can access a more abundant food supply than red squirrels. As a result, the arrival of grey squirrels in an area occupied by red squirrels tends to cause reduced red squirrel breeding and survival rates leading to a gradual decline in their numbers.
There's some evidence which appears consistent to this:

1) White Britons are a minority population in our capital city, in London being 44.9% and reducing.

2) Large numbers of Spaniards have been emigrating while white Britons occupy whole areas of Spain.

3) French vintners have been abandoning their land, selling it to Britons who are now important wine producers in France. Equally some areas of France have large numbers of Britons resident, not just retired but also full-time employed there.

4) London is the fifth largest French city in electoral terms since the French can still vote in their home region after emigrating to the UK. Kent also has a very large French voting population, the two influencing French parliamentary results so greatly that their politicians canvas here.

5) Large tracts of eastern European land have been bought up cheaply by Britons who have sold their home farms to be able to live there and large scale factory farm more profitably.

6) Large numbers of Britons are retiring to Eastern European countries, takinmg advantage of very cheap property prices to increase their retirement cash. My sister with Bulgarian property is one of them, indeed she owns three properties there.

The flaw in the squirrel comparison though is that those Britons are improving their lot as the world's population indulge in a huge game of "Ring a Ring of Roses", swapping countries and lives. Is that a bad thing? I don't think so. It's a continuing process of amalgamation of the world's peoples who will eventually in the very long term have one common identity and finally even one language.

The end of racism.
.
 
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Oscdav

Pedelecer
Sep 1, 2014
27
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Sorry...
I fell upon this thread just this evening... was so enlightening.
Glad to see that it's not only me that's 'out of time!
So many positive people aroundo_O
It leaves me believing a younger and more diverse people are our only hope.
 

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