Change UK law to allow 30mph ebikes

Cephalotus

Finding my (electric) wheels
Mar 22, 2017
16
21
42
Germany
I'd rather hope so, given:

412,44€
incl. 20% VAT excl. shipping cost
to the delivery destination: United Kingdom
I bought a Supernova M99 Pure+ (12V) for 150 Euro. Had to solder my own connector though...

Light is excellent(!) in comparison to my other bike lights.

Is it worth the money? Hard to tell. I say that one accident is significantly more "expensive" than buying a good light.

People beleivve that ridng 45km/h can be done with cheap standard bike quality, because from time to time they ride 45km/h downhill with such bikes. I do not agree here and would say that it is very dfferent if you ride 40km/h+ 1% of your time or 80% of your time. I would argue that sPedelecs need much more durable technology than is found on most standard bikes. Tires, fork, light, frame, everything relevant for safety has to be bought from high or even highest quality, imho.

Lampenvergleich2_angepasst.jpg
 
Last edited:
D

Deleted member 4366

Guest
Hi David
Having seen your previous thread, I am very interested in your experience riding a 30mph bicycle on the road and sadly I am not surprised by your early encounters. Having ridden motorcycles with top speed of between 25 and 150mph for 40+ years something I have learnt is that road position is key to survival. If you travel too far to the left on 2 wheels of any kind, car drivers will instinctively think you are traveling at a speed slower than them and feel obliged to overtake you at any cost whatever your speed. Take up approx. 1/3rd of the road making cars cross the centre line and therefore making them think about the overtake and things change dramatically. You will still get the idiots that must overtake, but the majority will be happy to drop their speed by 2-3 mph and stay behind you, especially is heavy traffic. Hope this is of help to you.
Nice theory. I'm sure he knows all that, but I can tell you that you can be as far out as the white line, but something gets into them. They just see a bicycle and get a compulsion to overtake it regardless of its speed and position. I know exactly what he means because I've experienced it in exactly the same way, and I have approx 3/4 million miles motorcycling experience on everything from the smallest mopeds to the fastest hyper-sports bikes.
 

mike killay

Esteemed Pedelecer
Feb 17, 2011
2,551
1,230
I'm not quite that old, but I have seen evolution in action.

When I was young fish didn't have fingers, but now they are so common that we wean our kids on them.
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And you can buy a frozen bag of 8 chicken legs in the Supermarket.
Never had chickens with 8 legs when I was a youngster.
 
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lovejmak

Just Joined
May 20, 2019
1
0
Actually the main issue with the government is that they are still thinking cyclists are the slow bunch. 15.5mph is more than sufficient. The fact is, no it's not and only a small proportion of cyclists regularly cycle under 15.5mph on a flat plain.

I really want to get an electric bike, just to take me further and ease up the commute. BUT with a 15.5mph ebike, I will be using my own power anyways most of the times. So what's the point of having a heavier bike that's no different to a normal bike at the speed I am going? And therefore, I am back into cars when I want to go slightly further than my normal bike comfort zone. And btw, that zone is still within one city!! If they have push up the limits, then I wouldn't have driven as often.

I am totally fine with the idea of registration, insurance, lights, tests, etc. The only thing I think is a bit stupid is that speed pedelecs cannot use cycle paths and have to wear and motorbike helmet. Like seriously? Motorbike helmet?? Have these people tried to work out with a bicycle helmet, let alone a motorbike helmet?? Also, the whole point of a speed pedelecs instead of an actually moped is that people can cycle (ie health benefit), while still maintaining the ability to go anywhere they want without taking a whole day. Yes, 30mph would be excessive on a shared path. But how many cyclists are actually that stupid to cycle at 30mph on a shared path?? many cyclists on the road regularly can cycle at 25mph. Are you seeing many of them cycling on shared path with pedestrians at 25mph regularly? maybe a small number of cyclists will do that. Also, since we need registration to those speed pedelecs, we can impose mandatory training focusing on speed pedelecs rather than mopeds and impose a speed limit on speed pedelecs on shared paths. Or at least, let them use it with low or no power as a secondary option. What if the bike runs out of battery?
 
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soundwave

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 23, 2015
9,215
3,809
just get a bike and dongle it only downside is it will hurt the range esp at speed.
 

Wicky

Esteemed Pedelecer
Feb 12, 2014
1,384
1,713
Colchester, Essex
www.jhepburn.co.uk
But how many cyclists are actually that stupid to cycle at 30mph on a shared path??
Quite a few councils are investing in cycle paths to encourage cycling - well mine in Essex is with most of a shared footpath/cyclepath variety (some daft implementatiion despite it bwing pointd out by local cycling groups) but that is the reality of the policy from top down . As i pointed out earlier on in this thread allowing moped performance pedelecs on them with pedestrians would be daft.


 
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trevor brooker

Pedelecer
Feb 11, 2018
98
47
57
maidstone
"Quite a few councils are investing in cycle paths to encourage cycling "

The problem with cycle lanes, paths, shared paths etc is that you can not maintain your speed, as every time you come to a road, you have to stop.

So if you want to get anywhere its better to use the road.

The only place where I found a decent cycle path was around Oxford, where alongside the dual carriageways was a hedge, then a footpath then a cycle path, with underpasses at junctions. This was decades ago, so its probably been demolished by now, as no one likes using underpasses anymore.
 
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iRider

Pedelecer
May 2, 2019
55
9
Wigan
I have tried to read as many posts in this thread as I can but some are a little long winded. So if this has been said before I apologise for repeating it.

I see ops after post saying this and that will never happen, we have been trying for decades etc etc. This fails the take account of the renewed urgency around global warming etc. Moped legislation and licensing for example was written to stop 16 year old loonies killing themselves, it took no account of older, more responsible cyclists in an age where the internal combustion engine is seen as the greatest threat to mankind.

The point I’m making is, just because efforts to get higher power or speed limits on Ebikes have failed in the past is no indication of certain failed today. We are definitely living with different social and environmental priorities these days.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
42,889
18,837
The point I’m making is, just because efforts to get higher power or speed limits on Ebikes have failed in the past is no indication of certain failed today. We are definitely living with different social and environmental priorities these days.
The "past" we are speaking of is all in this new millennium, most of it in this decade! E-bikes were incredibly rare beasts in Britain before year 2000.

So I'm afraid the priorities you mention aren't changed and most of the decisions ruling out your suggested changes are less than 5 years old.

The whole trend in all our vehicle and roads law is towards ever reducing speeds for all vehicles in all circumstances, so no-one will listen to requests for increases.
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iRider

Pedelecer
May 2, 2019
55
9
Wigan
The "past" we are speaking of is all in this new millennium, most of it in this decade! E-bikes were incredibly rare beasts in Britain before year 2000.

So I'm afraid the priorities you mention aren't changed and most of the decisions ruling out your suggested changes are less than 5 years old.

The whole trend in all our vehicle and roads law is towards ever reducing speeds for all vehicles in all circumstances, so no-one will listen to requests for increases.
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If you think the ecological predictions and responses of just 5 years ago are anything like the same today you clearly need to do some research of your own.

As for laws on speed, they are drafted on the basis that reduced speed results in reduced emissions from ic engines. Notwithstanding, to say the rend for all vehicles on all roads is towards ever reducing speeds is quite simply wrong.. Example: “The national speed limits for HGVs over 7.5 tonnes, travelling on a single carriageway increased from 40mph to 50mph. The speed limit for HGVs over 7.5 tonnes, travelling on dual carriageways increased from 50mph to 60mph.17 Apr 2015”
 

Nev

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 1, 2018
651
677
North Wales
Do you folks think that one possibility in the future (not sure how many years away this would be) could be to fit new pedelecs with a sort of GPS sensors which in turn would govern what speed they are allowed to go. So for example if your cycling on a cycle path then your automatically restricted to 15.5 mph. If however you move over onto the road then the speed restriction is removed and you are now allowed to do say 30 mph.

The system could be tied in with the car system which I think is due out in a few years time. So if a car is restricted to say 20 mph on a particular road, then a pedelec would have the same restriction. I'm wondering could 5G and the internet of things (not sure what that means lol), be utilized to get this kind of system working.

Lets say in most towns and cities cars would be restricted to 20 or 30 mph and pedelecs would be allowed to do the exact same speed. Do you think more people would be tempted to cycle as they would be able to keep up with the traffic, and travel time on the bike would probably be quicker as you could pass by any traffic hold ups.
 

iRider

Pedelecer
May 2, 2019
55
9
Wigan
Do you folks think that one possibility in the future (not sure how many years away this would be) could be to fit new pedelecs with a sort of GPS sensors which in turn would govern what speed they are allowed to go. So for example if your cycling on a cycle path then your automatically restricted to 15.5 mph. If however you move over onto the road then the speed restriction is removed and you are now allowed to do say 30 mph.

The system could be tied in with the car system which I think is due out in a few years time. So if a car is restricted to say 20 mph on a particular road, then a pedelec would have the same restriction. I'm wondering could 5G and the internet of things (not sure what that means lol), be utilized to get this kind of system working.

Lets say in most towns and cities cars would be restricted to 20 or 30 mph and pedelecs would be allowed to do the exact same speed. Do you think more people would be tempted to cycle as they would be able to keep up with the traffic, and travel time on the bike would probably be quicker as you could pass by any traffic hold ups.
I think in reality, the chances of actually achieving the speed limit in most towns and cities in a car are pretty low. Most speed limits are therefore aspirational
 
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flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
42,889
18,837
As for laws on speed, they are drafted on the basis that reduced speed results in reduced emissions from ic engines.
So what, it doesn't alter the fact of reducing speed limits.

Notwithstanding, to say the rend for all vehicles on all roads is towards ever reducing speeds is quite simply wrong.. Example: “The national speed limits for HGVs over 7.5 tonnes, travelling on a single carriageway increased from 40mph to 50mph. The speed limit for HGVs over 7.5 tonnes, travelling on dual carriageways increased from 50mph to 60mph.17 Apr 2015”
I am aware of this, but they are changes within the overall speed limits, many reducing. However, you are arguing against yourself with this comment:

"If you think the ecological predictions and responses of just 5 years ago are anything like the same today you clearly need to do some research of your own."

Clearly this HGV change was against the general trend that has evolved since then.

But I'll address your wish for 30 mph assist pedelecs by pointing out why it cannot succeed with the following examples:

Extensive 20 mph limits are being introduced in the sort of urban and suburban areas where most utility cycling and cycle commuting is done. For example in my own Outer London borough, one of the largest in Britain and larger than most cities, we have a borough wide 20 mph limit with just the through routes at 30 mph.

Riders of restricted Mopeds limited to 28 mph have to possess a driving licence and CBT if necessary, their machines registered, number plated and insured and wear a full m/c helmet. Unless you want all the same for pedelecs, 30 mph will not happen.

The DfT have ruled out the adoption of 28 mph Speed Pedelecs, following the trend in the mainland EU where 24 of the other 27 countries have opposed their introduction.

Now even some types of L1e-A mopeds restricted to the same 15.5 mph as us require a group Q driving licence.

None of these is commensurate with getting 30 mph pedelecs.

And I don't need to do any research on today's changed circumstances since my ecological credentials have been very apparent since the 1950s. Today they include me being exclusively an electric car driver, happy to pootle along behind 20 mph cyclists when necessary.

However, by all means continue with your campaign, the disappointment will only be yours.
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flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
42,889
18,837
I think in reality, the chances of actually achieving the speed limit in most towns and cities in a car are pretty low. Most speed limits are therefore aspirational
As 30 mph averages of course, but for reaching the limits you really have to be kidding! Many if not most car drivers often match the 20 or 30 mph speed limits and more between lights in the traffic lights grand prix.

Even my Nissan Leaf e-car does 0 to 20mph in 2 seconds and 0 to 30 mph in 3.1 seconds, and outside the rush hours I can easily average the 20 mph limit in my South London area.
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iRider

Pedelecer
May 2, 2019
55
9
Wigan
So what, it doesn't alter the fact of reducing speed limits.



I am aware of this, but they are changes within the overall speed limits, many reducing. However, you are arguing against yourself with this comment:

"If you think the ecological predictions and responses of just 5 years ago are anything like the same today you clearly need to do some research of your own."

Clearly this HGV change was against the general trend that has evolved since then.

But I'll address your wish for 30 mph assist pedelecs by pointing out why it cannot succeed with the following examples:

Extensive 20 mph limits are being introduced in the sort of urban and suburban areas where most utility cycling and cycle commuting is done. For example in my own Outer London borough, one of the largest in Britain and larger than most cities, we have a borough wide 20 mph limit with just the through routes at 30 mph.

Riders of restricted Mopeds limited to 28 mph have to possess a driving licence and CBT if necessary, their machines registered, number plated and insured and wear a full m/c helmet. Unless you want all the same for pedelecs, 30 mph will not happen.

The DfT have ruled out the adoption of 28 mph Speed Pedelecs, following the trend in the mainland EU where 24 of the other 27 countries have opposed their introduction.

Now even some types of L1e-A mopeds restricted to the same 15.5 mph as us require a group Q driving licence.

None of these is commensurate with getting 30 mph pedelecs.

And I don't need to do any research on today's changed circumstances since my ecological credentials have been very apparent since the 1950s. Today they include me being exclusively an electric car driver, happy to pootle along behind 20 mph cyclists when necessary.

However, by all means continue with your campaign, the disappointment will only be yours.
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So now your going back on your statement about “all vehicles on all roads” and introducing licensing, registration and insurance of ic mopeds to deflect the pint?

As for suggesting driving an eCar somehow validates a clearly flawed understanding on the escalation of climate change predictions in the last half a decade, is quite absurd.

Picking up on the point that “The DfT have ruled out the adoption of 28 mph Speed Pedelecs, following the trend in the mainland EU where 24 of the other 27 countries have opposed their introduction.” So that means 3 of them have. By that argument we should adopt the Euro and drive on the right. Progress is never made by following the crowd but by doing so, you at least will save yourself from disappointment.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
42,889
18,837
Do you folks think that one possibility in the future (not sure how many years away this would be) could be to fit new pedelecs with a sort of GPS sensors which in turn would govern what speed they are allowed to go.
I think too far away to consider at present, could well be beyond cycling age for many in here.

Lets say in most towns and cities cars would be restricted to 20 or 30 mph and pedelecs would be allowed to do the exact same speed. Do you think more people would be tempted to cycle as they would be able to keep up with the traffic, and travel time on the bike would probably be quicker as you could pass by any traffic hold ups.
No, I don't see many more tempted to cycle since it's far from being only about speed. There's safety and cycling vulnerability, there's the weather; rain, cold, high winds and icy roads, there's the limitations on carrying things and inability to give lifts. Cars are just so damned convenient!
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trevor brooker

Pedelecer
Feb 11, 2018
98
47
57
maidstone
As 30 mph averages of course, but for reaching the limits you really have to be kidding! Many if not most car drivers often match the 20 or 30 mph speed limits and more between lights in the traffic lights grand prix.

Even my Nissan Leaf e-car does 0 to 20mph in 2 seconds and 0 to 30 mph in 3.1 seconds, and outside the rush hours I can easily average the 20 mph limit in my South London area.
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I think is the problem with modern cars, and why cyclists appear unsafe on the roads - acceleration

When I started driving the cars had, low power, poor brakes, low grip tyres. So you drove accordingly.

Now the car I borrow when needed is decades old, has low power & drum brakes. Modern car drivers seem not to appreciate that I can not keep up with them nor brake as quickly.

Sometimes I feel safer on my ebike as its obvious to other traffic of my vehicles limitations.
 
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flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
42,889
18,837
So now your going back on your statement about “all vehicles on all roads” and introducing licensing, registration and insurance of ic mopeds to deflect the pint?
This and your prior posts show only too clearly you are just looking for an argument.

I'm not deflecting your points, just showing you why your wish will not be granted. If you can't understand that, by all means join all those before you and be disappointed at the outcome.
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soundwave

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 23, 2015
9,215
3,809
all cars will drive them self soon enough so there will not be any more problems ;)
 
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