CST - it's all working

[Scimitar]

Aye; the road of the pioneer is never an easy one

Actually, apart from the odd bit of misfortune, the conversion went ok, did it not? The boggering up of the motor feed wires was an accident (and that nearly happened to me); the extras that you wanted were all down to a desire to have them and it's all very much a bespoke tailoring exercise. You can't condemn all kits on the basis of one you've spent a load of time on personalising.
I know what it's like though; the frustration when something goes wrong or doesn't fit or you have to wait on parts or somebody lets you down, etc, etc.
Never mind; if you did it again, you'd be twice as quick and even quicker on the one after that.

 

[103Alex1]

Finally got it on the road for a test ride a few mins ago. Verdict :

- Feelings of stability and balance are vastly improved with the battery and controller in the frame.

- May have front tyre off to reset it .. looks a wee bit off line to me

- seatpost has been raised and much less aware of the box. But I'm aware of it. Really should have gone to try those Xipi bikes like Frank kept telling me to and I'd have known what to expect before starting the build in having a cube between your legs in that position. Not sure what I'd have done if I'd known though - probably wound up with a more compact LiPo array - and likely a fire knowing my luck.

There doesn't seem to be any sensible middle ground at a realistic price.

I'm reminded of this .




The products basically aren't available yet for me to get what I'm after and fit in a way I'm happy with. I've done my best but I think I've got a short distance very steep hill conqueror to ride on full throttle for a few miles. I've lost my nice MTB in the process and won't want to ride this unpowered in proper off road conditions. To get the battery and controller where I want them has come at the price of selling out to e-power, which makes the initial desire to keep my 27 gears for off-roading a thwarted objective. I'd never ride a bike with that battery on a rack in proper off-road conditions.

So .... I shall most likely use it to get up ridiculously steep hills back home from going for walks and swims on full throttle. Till I get a car. But likely won't want to use it to go further afield. I guess that's OK because my original primary objective is achieved and I have something that functions to get places in very hilly terrain easily, lock up and go do the things I want to do at the other end. The extras to encourage me to do some enjoyable cycle exploration and be more self-sufficient on the move are likely not going to be needed now I see the outcome and limitations on the sort of riding I'm inspired to do on the bike. Disappointing that - they cost a king's ransom, have been designed in from the outset and involved a great many hours of work to bring to fruition.

The real flaw that's been there all along except I didn't see it was the battery. I needed something much slimmer and more elegant for incorporation into the triangle. Preferably a more compact controller too so as to allow easier incorporation of other components into a slimline design. Then I might have had something I'd want to use to go further and actually enjoy the riding more. I can't be bothered to start changing anything now - the box has taken me +/- 50 hours to make to measure, I'm not into repeating that exercise. The Summer I built the bike for is here already (I think !). It's high time the bike had some use.

I'll probably only keep it rigged up till I have a car, which will likely be by late Autumn now. Will then most likely strip all the electrics and if I keep the bike have it as an unpowered XC racing MTB, which I far preferred to the converted bike in either its previous or current form, bells & whistles notwithstanding. I doubt I'd want another converted bike tbh unless it was for work commuting and I'm hoping I can somehow avoid that in a hilly area .. by living somewhere flatter if necessary if a bike has to be ridden to get places !

The severe hills have killed the balance of bike and power and the trade-off is too great for me to be happy with personally.. and I hate riding up very severe hills (22%+) underpowered. So there's a big mismatch of me, bikes and severe hills. The obvious and likely easiest thing to change in the foreseeable months is getting a car with which to drive a bike to manageable terrain. Or a scooter .. but I don't see much point in that really (not in this climate anyway) unless it's to save on fuel. In any event it doesn't help transport a bike !

Had hoped for an outcome I'd like more and been willing it to be that way for months keeping going with this conversion, trying to adjust my preconceptions and be flexible. I guess what I wanted to achieve would likely have to be designed and built from the ground up, but that's all way beyond what any bike is worth to me in the end.

I'm speaking of course from the notional perspective of having the ability to freely choose. Appreciate that's not the case for everyone and likely won't always be the case for me. But it's been an interesting experiment nonetheless so far and I now look at bikes and eBikes in a completely different way.

My parameters of what's important and what's not, depending on what circumstances, are completely changed. Along with what I expect to get versus what I used to hope I might. There are certain limitations that no amount of time or money can brush aside and it's those stress points that become the key things I now look for - when thinking about building or looking at something to buy.

Time, degree of ongoing interest and money will as always be limiting factors. I can't say whether I might be tempted to build again. I've kind of got a lot out of my system (both curiosity and a need to create something) with this build. But with what's on the market for e-Bikes at the moment and the price of things the answer is no.

Came into this with precious little knowledge of bikes or electrics and now at least know the basics of what to ask and look for, and can assemble the wiring for most things you might want to add on to an eBike. So the mind is opened and much learning has been achieved. Just have to focus on this as the main outcome rather than the bike itself I guess. If I just look at the bike and link input to output it's easy to get mad with myself for spending so much time and money on it.

In the end, it's a bike. And its builder is still an incurable perfectionist who fixates on every flaw in everything he does and will likely never think it's good enough lol. It's a family trait unfortunately. A few miles in the saddle, however imperfect, will hopefully start redressing that balance a bit - once I start seeing some positive benefits from all the work I've put in and all the help I've had, which despite all my grumblings about the results of my own choices is still very much appreciated.

 

[103Alex1]

Well, a teeny bit of cable tidying at the handlebars and the box could do with some graphics / finishing touches but basically it's done and useable. This is definitely the build which nearly didn't happen. Many, many times.

I've cracked the box thing a bit. It's down to the saddle position. Basically I have short legs and long arms. Which means I need to get my bum back a bit - and adjust the saddle to stop slipping forward so much. Saddle might have to be changed - well, I've changed pretty much everything else ! When I sit back on the saddle I barely notice the box and there's only occasional contact whilst pedalling - which there would be on any box or bag in that position, even a narrower one.

and ... I fitted everything in. Heaven knows how. It's nearly broken me !

One fully accessorized bike :





Dashboard :

 

[103Alex1]

All worked out well behind the seatpost. I moved the rack to a set back position as it doesn't need to be close to the seatpost with no battery to support. So managed to fit the horn and mobile phone charger isolator switch box in the zone using the rack arms :



There's no chance of accidentally turning on the phone charger - it needs a firm push on the button to open the circuit and the LED indicates whether on or off. There's 2 other switches which control it on the main circuit so it's a bit of an extra really, only to isolate it if I'm using the 12V charger socket for a high amp draw item :



All the rear wiring for motor power cable, brake switch, horn, rear light and phone charger switch have been wrapped into a loom which enters the box below the charger socket. Clearances for smooth functioning down to a millemetre. The whole build's been a bit like that !

 

[103Alex1]

Sorry for the multiple posts ... it's the 4 image limit that's to blame !

Switches are on the opposite side of the box to the cable entry and battery charging socket :



The switches are IP65 waterproof, but as they're both DPDT, each in use for only SPST I've encased the unused pins in Sugru and reinforced the internal proofing so there should be no shorting. Top switch is master on/off linked to the soft start FET switch. Cycle Analyst backlight comes on when the bike is turned on and reminds you to switch off when finished riding.

The accessories are all isolated via the bottom switch. This is only there to conserve battery but on a long ride in daylight it might come in handy. Otherwise it can be left on as the master switch cuts supply at the battery. When the secondary switch is turned on it opens supply to :

Handlebar light/horn switch feeding :

- CREE T6 front light and Magicshine MJ-818 rear light on lights on low beam (running on 9V)

- 36V 3-LED light and 24V 9-LED master headlight (if plugged in) on high beam (either/both come on together with above when plugged in)

- 36V horn (112dB)

Plus

- 12V marine cigarette charging socket (compatible with USB charger insert)

- 12V Hardwire mobile phone charger fitting waterproof tough case - used with Samsung Galaxy SIII for GPS / SatNav etc. but can swap out for cases / cables for any other phone the manufacturer supports like iPhones etc.

I've used Magicshine-style connector cables internally in the box, they're easily accessible when you remove the panel and have a bunch of spare extension leads so it's easy to swap out the lights connected to the 9V supply or even plug in a Y-connecter cable to run two front lights plus a rear light off that.

Haven't yet worked out how to get my camera to take night shots of bikes with lights on (!) but proof of the pudding :

All 3 front lights on (headlight fitted just for testing - I'd never use it in a big town, just the 36V light is enough for high beam !)



The single MJ-818 is more than plenty at the rear but there's space to mount another on the left and a slot in the middle for a regular battery-powered back-up Smart Lunar 2 x 1/2 watt for emergencies.



The biggest surprise really in the wiring was the amount of spare cabling that's integral to the Cycle Analyst LCD display. I've a storage area between my handlebars and the Rixen/Kaul handlebar bag extender mount that I modded to mount my big headlight which accommodates it all bundled up. Basically it's a whole bunch of comms and data cabling that's integral to the CA display and isn't really needed (by me). My phone charger lead has a load of excess too - with a nice sewn on velcro strap. So I've just wrapped the velcro strap round it all and popped a cable tie round the adaptor to hold it all in place.

I've discovered there's one rule of wiring that comes with stuff you buy. If you need a long cable it's too short and you have to extend it. And if you need a short one you have feet of excess - especially on fully waterproofed stuff you really don't want to start chopping up ! Else you have to shorten it... which I did with many things. Literally all a*se about face ... including the battery wires and and all the Cycle Analyst stuff. The only thing which was the right length 'out of the box' was the unfeasibly expensive light/horn switch that's dirt bike spec. I made all the other wiring to measure so in a way that was easier.

Riding the bike in finished configuration is helping me conquer my fear of that f****** throttle a bit too - have been just so many tired mistakes with all the stopping / starting the build, with it wheelying / taking off on me (or not functioning during the building / testing for various reasons before getting the switches properly sorted and 'user-friendly', usually not putting on the stand ! ) that I literally get pangs of adrenaline and dread at the thought of it every time I sit on the bike or hold the handlebars.

Perhaps this is at the root of something ! It wouldn't be so bad but that motor's not one you want to have to tame too often standing beside the bike with the handlebars making a bid for the moon. It's a shock at the best of times. My multi-level anti-idiot/scatterbrain isolator systems work and are definitely needed ... by me !!! So yes, everything now works well enough. For me.

Riding the bike with everything working at the push of a button or two, lights all sorted at the flick of a switch with no little batteries to fanny about with, phone charging as I ride and some nice music on, horn if I need it, backlit LCD with all I really need to know and a cruise throttle if I'm feeling brave .. well .. I have to confess ... with it all how it should be (and as far as I could get it - where it should be) was much nicer than I was braced for. I even smiled (OK I nearly screamed with joy and relief). It's an incredible piece of work and I don't say that to myself very often.

Guess I just have to get used to swapping between my crank drive and this bike - because they are such very different animals in every way. Riding with a throttle is so completely different and I've had much less practice at it. I'll have a tough job getting sweaty on this one - unless I turn off the motor completely. In a way it's nice to have both. I've tried - again and again - but it's impossible to compare them. Both are impressive things in their different ways. If I was fit enough to manage all my terrain easily with the Kalkhoff I'd have been happy with that. But this has plugged a need on very long very steep hills that nothing less would have plugged... and the Kalkhoff just couldn't stretch to... not to mention I need a bike in 2 different places.

Anyway, once I've cleared the cyclical backlog of other commitments that's built up each time I've made a bid to finish the build over the last 4 months I am dearly looking forward .. to some sleep at night . Just pray the bike stays working OK. I've honestly pretty much given all I have to give to it in every possible way. I look at it working and still can't believe I made that... with a mechanical bail-out from d8veh when I f***** up the lead and endless teaching to boot from a number on here lol ! It's blown my mind actually.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

I don't really know what to say, Alex. It's been a long journey to make a project with so many additional features. It takes real bravery and commitment to work your way through all the problems as you pioneer your way through all the unknown territory. You've worked your way through, and we've all learnt a lot from it thanks to your detailed documentation. I take my hat off to you, and I hope that you get thousands of happy miles from it. Naturally it'll take a while to figure out how to get the best out of it because it's different to your Kalkhoff. I think that your motor/controller/battery combination, as the heart of any ebike, is difficult to beat. Add it to a nice bike with high-spec components and no bike that you can buy will come close.

 

[bilabonic]

Excellent build and result

 

[103Alex1]

Thanks for the encouragement and again for all the help on here. With hindsight maybe I was being a wee bit ambitious for a first build. But ignorance is bliss ('till the shock of repeated enlightenment !) and at least I got there in the end !

 

[JimB]

Alex - I love gadgets and learning how to do 'things' but I have to say that reading your on-going story of this project usually depressed me as I could empathise with your frustration.

I am pleased to say that I also empathise with your obvious relief that the job is finished (apart from some tinkering) and quite justifiable pride in what you have achieved.

Fantastic!

JimB

 

[Scimitar]

Congrats on a finished project, Alex.
A long road, but you got there in the end

 

[OldBob1]

Excellent Alex Well done.
After the pain now the FUN begins

Bob

 

[103Alex1]

Excellent Alex Well done.
After the pain now the FUN begins

Bob

Could do with a bit of that Bob ! Nah, to be fair lots of the build was fun in its own way but getting thwarted repeatedly in a bid to complete something working to unrealistic time targets in an unfamiliar area, not giving myself a fair crack at learning in a relaxed way and having a stack of other stuff that's being neglected and causing grief and guilt winds up taking the edge off the fun along the way a bit more than is reasonable ! It's so often the way when you set ambitious targets unfortunately.

Hopefully have some fun with it now over the Summer.

Bilabonic's questions earlier reminded me I forgot to install the permanent rubber cover plug I'd bought for my charger socket. It's a fiddly thing to put on after installing the socket but no good to anyone sat in the drawer so I had it all open, fannied about with camera screwdrivers for 1/2 an hour and got it on :





It'll save having to try not to lose the loose dummy blanking plugs when the bike's on charge anyway.

Quick check of the wiring after the first 10 miles and everything's holding up fine. A right spaghetti junction in there (!) .... it's all pretty logical though and all the equipment wiring insulation is really tough with high temp tolerance to be on the safe side (much better stuff than I've seen used even in many cars / scooters tbh.) so fingers crossed.

I honestly didn't know until the very final assembly whether it would all fit. The extras really do add majorly to the complexity. If you were designing a production bike you could internally route a load of cabling in the frame and use very neat power distribution and fusing systems, but on a conversion housing all that's considerably trickier.

 

[103Alex1]

Well, all packed up and off to rural pastures for this now. I boxed up the complete maintenance, spares & repair kit for it as I don't have any bike stuff at all at the other end. 4 boxes of tools and bits - about as much as the bike itself - and that's foregoing a stand as I need that for my Kalkhoff even to clean the chain ! . Was quite an interesting exercise to put that lot together and see just what you actually do use to put one eBike together and have the kit to work on it, as most of the stuff is probably generally in multiple use and not set aside for one purpose.

 

[103Alex1]

Reunited with my bike a couple of days ago - Survived the white van journey fully assembled with plenty of bubble wrap and everything working perfectly when I joined it a few days ago. Four months on from placing my original order, I finally got to ride it on the route it was originally designed for. Amazing weather delivered for the occasion (although a reasonably strong 15mph headwind on some stretches).

It's extremely difficult speccing something from hundreds of miles away for a life and place it's easy to lose sight of during months of virtual absence and hypothesizing how it might eventually fare with no prior experience. In this sense, I have got to seriously give due credit now - d8veh has come up trumps on the motor/controller/battery combo recommendation for the conditions I described to him.

My test rides up country gave me some doubt but you only ever really know for sure when you put a bike on the route(s) you're building a bike for. This is a reasonably hilly ride with some steep (>22%) ascents up from the coast. Total 11.66 miles (apparently !), likely daily in Summer unless there's a serious gale blowing, to get me, my wetsuit and other clobber to the sea and home again without making a major cycling expedition out of it all. Everything else is a bonus.

So how did it fare ? Surpassed all my expectations. The answer's in the stats (I'd just recharged but reset Cycle Analyst at the start of the ride) :

Speedo / time taken [had to pull in & stop a couple of times to let cars pass] ... Using middle chainring on serious climbs >20%, the min observed speed was 15.7mph. The gearing used clearly matters a lot but that's far better than I was expecting. Max and average speeds for the route :



Max amps / min volts (I thought KU123 was a 30A controller but it pulled over 38A ... glad I fitted a 40A fuse and wondering if it should be more !) :



Battery use 224.64Wh / 19.2 Wh/mile - much more economical for that performance than I was expecting :



Rode a lot of in on the largest front chainring, but dropped to the middle one for the climbs, which were actually enjoyable. I don't tend to race downhill much on narrow single lane roads so was on the brakes downhill a lot. With the seat raised and bike better fitted I was barely aware of the box so that's sussed now.

All in all - it's now absolutely tailor made for purpose and have over 3 times the battery Ah used for my core target regular trip. 15 minutes there and 20 minutes back - amazing.... as quick as driving and no parking charges. The only compromise - not being able to lock everything in the car I don't want to take to the sea rather than leaving it in a bag on the rocks and hoping for the best ! But it's fine - and being mobile round here again is priceless. Should do me for some longer trips too - 15 mile radius or so with no recharging if I want to ride flat out.

So in the end was it worth all the work ? Given all that is now in the past and the bike's enabling me to do what I've been dreading foregoing this year and missing for the last 2 months, yes. Absolutely. Even with all those setbacks and total time spent researching, building, experimenting and finishing running into the hundreds of hours. I didn't build this for the sake of riding it as the end goal. It was meant to give a whole lot more ... and finally ... it is now. Very happy indeed.

 

[103Alex1]

Pleased to report the bike is still going strong (touch wood !) - including all the lights, battery charger socket, horn, switches, phone charger and other accessories, and I haven't had to open up the battery/controller box once since finishing the build and connecting everything up before transport. The battery position has made the world of difference to bike stability and it handles fine. A conversion like this can never be as nimble as an unconverted bike.... but the box has transformed the bike, I've not had trouble since adjusting the seat height and it doesn't feel odd any more.

Done 230 miles in the last 3 1/2 weeks, mainly to the beach and back I have to admit but some other rides too. Sea's been really calm and combining 12-15 miles on the bike with walking, swimming, snorkel action and plenty of beach and rocks has to be the perfect combination for downtime. Despite the really steep hills, this bike really does cope extremely well with anything I've thrown at it - and I've saved about £70 in parking charges alone which has to be a plus.

Really enjoy the rides now. Most of the time the bike sails along at 21-23mph though I regularly exceed 35mph when brakes are released on downhills round these quiet parts - only the atrocious tourist drivers who don't know their widths, vans who forget they have brakes and getting caught behind large agricultural machinery trundling along stop me taking that up further ! Steep hill starts are no bother and it'll spin up even the worst hills I've tackled (>20%) at over 15mph. It's good enough for me. I'd love another 20Ah battery tho' ! ... target destinations are far apart here and a full-power 70 mile round trip range in very hilly terrain would equate to about 40Ah of battery @ 36V with around 3 1/2 h of riding at average 20mph (readily do'able). I wouldn't want to cycle 30 miles unpowered - or for more than 3 1/2 hours total in a day.

The non-eBike bits need a bit of work in an ideal world. I took off the front Marathon + MTB tyre to fit a Protek Max inner tube and despite spending 1/2 an hour at it couldn't get the tyre back on the Bontrager race rim. I gave up when a friction blister developed on the palm of my hand and tore open ! It's strange as the rim and tyre are both 556 so really don't know what the problem is. Wound up re-fitting the old Jones tyre that was on the bike which is a bit worn but it'll do for now.

Also going to try the SKS XL mudguards because the regular Beavertail ones don't have much clearance and can catch on the knobbles ...

Getting better with the derailleur now ... on DH and flat to moderate uphill I'm on biggest chainring and smallest cog on rear cassette and this makes for a very comfortable cadence, so glad of the 9sp cassette. The granny ring is still there as I'd need it if I ever had a power failure with these hills but by shifting up the rear cassette I can actually get away with just using the big one under power.

Sometimes I'm lazy and just shift to middle front chainring leaving bike on smallest rear cog when I hit a steep hill. Rear derailleur could probably do with some minor adjustment but have decided to just let things be whilst the weather stays like this .. sometimes when you start tinkering you wind up making it all worse ... and I'd rather spend a heatwave enjoying the coast and countryside than adjusting a bike !!!

Some things I've realized are absolutely essential, despite the trials of getting the bike set up with them :

- Kickstand (no. 1) ... no way bikes of >23kg can be sensibly handled or racks loaded up without one

- Free rack ... I load a sizeable dry bag and long wet bag with drain mesh and shoulder straps on the bike and can just fit these on the rack secured with bungees. Too much stuff to carry in a rucksack and panniers wouldn't be practical or hold enough. This gives me wetsuit, full length fins & sea gear, change of clothes, windproof for late trips back, full size towel, food and water, bike lock, toolkit etc.

- Mudguards & chainguard - it's only when you see the filth thrown up and caught by them you remember why you fitted them !

For me the battery box was a must. Absolutely no regrets. Just a shame the battery seems to be giving so much trouble to accommodate as it's extremely good value - from the reports I've been reading lately looking back I was very lucky to have had a frame which would take it at all, even if I was ready to throw it at the wall by the time I finally managed to make a proper box to house it, let alone the controller and everything else I managed to get in there !!!

 

[bilabonic]

Great Stuff Alex, loving mine BUT wish i had gone for a 48v Battery, on the look now !!!


Still just unplugging mine atm, very simple system BUT the rear wheel is a pain, spokes coming loose all the time and i can not get the tyre to sit right after loads of attempts, i'm wondering if i doubled the cloth rim tape up for a short section on the rim but would that make a difference ??

 

[103Alex1]

Great Stuff Alex, loving mine BUT wish i had gone for a 48v Battery, on the look now !!!


Still just unplugging mine atm, very simple system BUT the rear wheel is a pain, spokes coming loose all the time and i can not get the tyre to sit right after loads of attempts, i'm wondering if i doubled the cloth rim tape up for a short section on the rim but would that make a difference ??

Do you want the 48V for more speed or are you looking for more power ? Have to admit I don't need any more power / speed with mine for the conditions the bike's ridden in and using higher assist speed would likely consume even more Wh/mile reducing range. But then I am only a little over 60kg and so perhaps that changes how the combo performs with 36V.

I don't really know on the wheel / spokes... built my motor wheel and have had no trouble with spokes, plus the tyre sits perfectly on the BMS Battery-supplied eBike rim. Your spokes have likely loosened and wheel gone out of true as the new wheel settles in and probably need tightening up and wheel truing. The only tyre / spoke problems I've had have been with the original Bontrager "tubeless-ready" front race rim.

If I keep the bike beyond the end of the year, might build a new front wheel and replace the cassette/chainrings and rear derailleur to keep it tip-top mechanically for another 5-7 years - but can't be bothered to do anything more to the bike for a while, bar cleaning and oiling the chain. I'm hoping there should be plenty of miles left in it before any major mechanical expense .

 

[Deleted member 4366]

I'm glad it's going so well. How about some photos of it loaded up. I don't think we've yet seen a proper photo of it finished - full side views.

 

[bilabonic]

Do you want the 48V for more speed or are you looking for more power ? Have to admit I don't need any more power / speed with mine for the conditions the bike's ridden in and using higher assist speed would likely consume even more Wh/mile reducing range. But then I am only a little over 60kg and so perhaps that changes how the combo performs with 36V.

I don't really know on the wheel / spokes... built my motor wheel and have had no trouble with spokes, plus the tyre sits perfectly on the BMS Battery-supplied eBike rim. Your spokes have likely loosened and wheel gone out of true as the new wheel settles in and probably need tightening up and wheel truing. The only tyre / spoke problems I've had have been with the original Bontrager "tubeless-ready" front race rim.

If I keep the bike beyond the end of the year, might build a new front wheel and replace the cassette/chainrings and rear derailleur to keep it tip-top mechanically for another 5-7 years - but can't be bothered to do anything more to the bike for a while, bar cleaning and oiling the chain. I'm hoping there should be plenty of miles left in it before any major mechanical expense .

Looking for more speed, i cruise at around 20/21 mph with me assisted a fair bit with 11t rear cassette.

Ideally would just like to replace the battery but the expense and whether it will fit is a problem.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Have you thought about upgrading to the 270 rpm CST motor at 36v. It'll put you right in that range. With the three speed switch connected, it'll max out at about 24 mph and still give very significant power at 21 mph so that you can pedal lightly to maintain that speed.