Electric Cars prospect failures

[flecc]

Just been listening to the latest on car charging points. The amount councils have spent on charging points under pressure from the government works out at £1700 per e-car on the road. Many have never been used, one council alone having 8 public chargers which have never been used during a year in place.

After two years of heavy promotion, plus £5000 per car subsidy and availability of 10 mainstream models of e-cars, there are now just 4000 on the roads of the UK, so much for Nissan's hopes for mass production of their Leaf model. Most they are making must be being shipped abroad.

I wonder how long it will take before our government realises their efforts are futile and stop wasting our taxed money. Since many of the very few e-cars sold have been bought by the wealthy who can take the monetary risk, it's the wealthy our subsidy money on cars and chargers has often been going to.

 

[shemozzle999]

A bit like car parking fines - doesn't effect the well off but if it was replaced by penalty points on your license it might be more effective.

 

[smudger1956]

Only discussing the 'failure' of Fords Azure Transit Connect Electric the other night.

 

[timidtom]

Just been listening to the latest on car charging points. The amount councils have spent on charging points under pressure from the government works out at £1700 per e-car on the road. Many have never been used, one council alone having 8 public chargers which have never been used during a year in place.

After two years of heavy promotion, plus £5000 per car subsidy and availability of 10 mainstream models of e-cars, there are now just 4000 on the roads of the UK, so much for Nissan's hopes for mass production of their Leaf model. Most they are making must be being shipped abroad.

I wonder how long it will take before our government realises their efforts are futile and stop wasting our taxed money. Since many of the very few e-cars sold have been bought by the wealthy who can take the monetary risk, it's the wealthy our subsidy money on cars and chargers has often been going to.

I tried, unsuccessfully, while the programme was on-air, to suggest that they could be converted to charge ebikes.
Tom

 

[Croxden]

Just been listening to the latest on car charging points. The amount councils have spent on charging points under pressure from the government works out at £1700 per e-car on the road. Many have never been used, one council alone having 8 public chargers which have never been used during a year in place.

After two years of heavy promotion, plus £5000 per car subsidy and availability of 10 mainstream models of e-cars, there are now just 4000 on the roads of the UK, so much for Nissan's hopes for mass production of their Leaf model. Most they are making must be being shipped abroad.

I wonder how long it will take before our government realises their efforts are futile and stop wasting our taxed money. Since many of the very few e-cars sold have been bought by the wealthy who can take the monetary risk, it's the wealthy our subsidy money on cars and chargers has often been going to.

Confucius, he say "The longest march starts with the first step". The Prius took a while to get going, I didn't buy the first but am very happy with the one I have. I may go for a Leaf but the thought of having a battery life of a e-bike and a bit more to replace is holding off the purchase decision of me and many more. But it has to start somewhere and the infrastructure in place to prevent range anxiety. How did the internal combustion cars kick off?

 

[Scimitar]

How did the internal combustion cars kick off?

You had to buy 'Motor Spirit' at various chemists and hardware stores en-route. Of course, one's man did it for you.

 

[flecc]

Confucius, he say "The longest march starts with the first step". The Prius took a while to get going, I didn't buy the first but am very happy with the one I have. I may go for a Leaf but the thought of having a battery life of a e-bike and a bit more to replace is holding off the purchase decision of me and many more. But it has to start somewhere and the infrastructure in place to prevent range anxiety. How did the internal combustion cars kick off?

The original Prius is a very different case, as I've often pointed out it's not a hybrid, it's just another petrol car with recovery of power that came from petrol in the first place.

For e-cars there has to be a prospect, that doesn't exist and there's no sign of one on the horizon. They are a dead end, lithium is a finite and restricted availability material and we'd have to almost double our generating capacity to enable all cars to be electric. As it stands we haven't even the will to build enough generating stations to met our existing needs and we face the prospect of the lights going out if something isn't urgently done.

And e-cars have no resale value, a problem the trade simply cannot solve. Pay £32,000 less the £5000 subsidy for a Leaf and at 4 to 5 years old you can't sell it and probably couldn't give it away. The £16,000 battery is then near the end of warranty so no-one will pay anything for a 4/5 year old small car knowing they soon face a £16,000 bill to keep it going. They wouldn't even welcome it as a gift since a 4/5 year old small hatchback just isn't worth £16,000 in our petrol car world.

I've just easily sold a 6 year old slightly knocked about petrol hatchback town car for a quarter of what I paid for it new, meaning its cost me in depreciation just £4500 in that 6 years.

For e-cars to be viable, petrol would have to be at least double it's present cost, an alternative to lithium batteries would have to be found and we'd have to adopt a vastly different generating policy, probably very large scale nuclear.

That still leaves the problem of fast charging "fuel" stations for e-cars to have a future. Successive dozens of cars filling up at such a station means it would have to have it's own high voltage fed sub-station for the huge currents involved, which in turn creates an available land problem.

That's the reality for e-cars, one that few people ever think through, least of all our politicians.

 

[Croxden]

The original Prius is a very different case, as I've often pointed out it's not a hybrid, it's just another petrol car with recovery of power that came from petrol in the first place.

For e-cars there has to be a prospect, that doesn't exist and there's no sign of one on the horizon. They are a dead end, lithium is a finite and restricted availability material and we'd have to almost double our generating capacity to enable all cars to be electric. As it stands we haven't even the will to build enough generating stations to met our existing needs and we face the prospect of the lights going out if something isn't urgently done.

And e-cars have no resale value, a problem the trade simply cannot solve. Pay £32,000 less the £5000 subsidy for a Leaf and at 4 to 5 years old you can't sell it and probably couldn't give it away. The £16,000 battery is then near the end of warranty so no-one will pay anything for a 4/5 year old small car knowing they soon face a £16,000 bill to keep it going. They wouldn't even welcome it as a gift since a 4/5 year old small hatchback just isn't worth £16,000 in our petrol car world.

I've just easily sold a 6 year old slightly knocked about petrol hatchback town car for a quarter of what I paid for it new, meaning its cost me in depreciation just £4500 in that 6 years.

For e-cars to be viable, petrol would have to be at least double it's present cost, an alternative to lithium batteries would have to be found and we'd have to adopt a vastly different generating policy, probably very large scale nuclear.

That still leaves the problem of fast charging "fuel" stations for e-cars to have a future. Successive dozens of cars filling up at such a station means it would have to have it's own high voltage fed sub-station for the huge currents involved, which in turn creates an available land problem.

That's the reality for e-cars, one that few people ever think through, least of all our politicians.

OK, you convinced me. Back to the drawing board.

 

[flecc]

OK, you convinced me. Back to the drawing board.

If there's an "e" future for personal transport, it will be in very light vehicles. Our pedelecs are one example and another one is the Renault Twizy 2 seater. Both of these can charge from a 13 amp socket so are at least compatible with our infrastructure, though widespread use will still require greatly increased generation.

Those are about the limit, all of us hurtling around in one or two tons of metal at 80 mph for hundreds of miles using electric motors just isn't going to happen.

My own opinion on the future doesn't include a solution of providing alternative cars. I see the solution being a very different social infrastructure where we don't need to waste much of our lives travelling but have most of our work and life necessities within easy reach.
.

 

[mike killay]

Although the ebike is doing well, I suspect that the real reason is that it is an unlicensed ultra lightweight motorbike.
Cyclists do not want them at the moment, and their main appeal is to people in hilly districts, or those unable to propel a pedal cycle for very long because of age, illness, infirmity etc.
A true electric scooter equivalent to the old 150cc Lambretta would have limited appeal because of the problems of battery cost and recharging.
I have a 12 foot electric boat. It has a 55 lb thrust motor and is capable of a modest performance in flat water.
The 2400 watt hour batteries will keep it going at 4 mph for about an hour and a half before needing lengthy recharging.
These batteries (2x100 amp/hours 12 volters) cost £200 and probably will last about 10 years with luck.
So, £20 a year not counting the cost of electricity.
The same boat fitted with my modest 2hp petrol outboard will do 6 mph all day long. A spare gallon of petrol is all that you need.
The only downside to petrol is the noise and vibration.

 

[flecc]

Although the ebike is doing well, I suspect that the real reason is that it is an unlicensed ultra lightweight motorbike.
Cyclists do not want them at the moment, and their main appeal is to people in hilly districts, or those unable to propel a pedal cycle for very long because of age, illness, infirmity etc.

I think we should look wider than Britain though Mike. Cyclists in the Netherlands and much of Germany clearly do want pedelecs. In The Netherlands one in six bikes sold is a pedelec and of necessity sold to a cyclist since most of them cycle anyway.

A true electric scooter equivalent to the old 150cc Lambretta would have limited appeal because of the problems of battery cost and recharging.

I think this is comparable to your boat situation. An e-scooter like the Lambretta etc can be viable, but not with the same performance. I'd suggest a 30 to 40 mph top speed with a 40 mile range for town and local commuting could be acceptable, and that's just possible with SLA batteries to keep the running cost down.

 

[mike killay]

I take your point about the Netherlands.
As you know I go to Ypres every November. In Belgium, there is a category of petrol scooter that is unregistered, limited to 15 mph, but requires tax and insurance, also a helmet.
These are not as popular as one would think, and compared with 25 years ago when the continent was absolutely awash with 50cc mopeds, the absence of these vehicles is startling.
Why this should be I do not know, it cannot be the growth of cars because there were plenty about in those days.
The electric bike with its lack of legal fuss is attractive and cheap on an annual basis.
I cannot see electric cars ever being popular if they use current technology.

 

[flecc]

We've got that same scooter class Mike, since it's an EU wide one. It's never been used in the UK as far as I know but it is accepted by the DfT and the fees are published on their website. It's the Low Powered Moped Class, up to one kilowatt power and can be petrol or electric, and as you say, in all respects treated as a moped except the powered speed limit is 15 mph. Here they have to be registered but VED (road tax) free if electric.