Grenfell Tower

Georgew

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Apr 13, 2016
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Fife Scotland
I did watch BBC panorama last night actually.
My opinion has not changed.
I believe it is an expression of self respect to wait for the facts to come out before jumping to conclusion.
You and oldtom are of course entitled to express a view, even unbalanced at that.
You watched Panorama and actually saw on screen the Fire Brigade Chief's report detailing the danger to this and other tower blocks. You saw on screen the written reply from Government Minister's refusing the water sprinkler request and you saw the fire travelling up the outside fabric of the building. You saw the tenants themselves telling of how they repeatedly warned the Council of what would happen......and yet....and yet...you say that you are waiting on the facts.
Obduracy is not compatible with self-respect in my view and your repeated attempts to reduce this tragedy to one concerning the minutia of building regulations and engineering criteria has little in common with self-respect either.
 
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Woosh

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May 19, 2012
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georgew, it is not obduracy, you jumped to conclusion, I wait for more facts.
Let's wait and see what the Courts have to say about this.
Oh perhaps not, in one of your previous posts, you don't believe in our justice system.
 

Georgew

Pedelecer
Apr 13, 2016
152
185
84
Fife Scotland
georgew, it is not obduracy, you jumped to conclusion, I wait for more facts.
Let's wait and see what the Courts have to say about this.
Oh perhaps not, in one of your previous posts, you don't believe in our justice system.
No fair-minded person could have reservations about our Justice system......good heavens no....perish the thought.
I mean Osgreave, Hillsborough, the wrongful imprisonment of the Scottish miners in 1984, the Guildford four and Maguire seven and the wrongful imprisonment of the Birmingham six....all of these are fitting tributes to the British Justice system. It's perhaps wrong of me to quote these cases however.....it might bolster my self-respect if I were to wait for evidence....you know...like a fair-minded person.
 
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oldtom

Esteemed Pedelecer
It bothers me when I hear people express views that major disasters such as Grenfell Tower should not be politicised. Invariably, such views come from tory supporters hoping somehow that if the voices of dissent are silenced, then they will not have to face up to their part in the political process which led to such an incompetent and uncaring government advocating and enacting their policies of evil.

Grenfell Tower was not just a tragic accident. It was a predictable event and is entirely the fault of decisions made by politicians at both local and national level. To level criticism at the people who effectively murdered the residents of Grenfell Tower is perfectly proper if it is possible to see with one's own eyes that decisions have been made by those with such power, which might be reasonably construed as corporate negligence leading to manslaughter. Such evidence abounds in the public domain already.

For those in denial, prepared to defend the appalling decisions taken by those politicians in this particular case, there are some clues here as to why this should be thoroughly investigated:

In February this year, ministers posted on a government website details of their ‘anti-red tape’ agenda on new-build properties.

In a separate report, on fire safety inspections, the Conservatives said they had been reduced for some companies from six hours to just 45 minutes.

The move, titled Cutting Red Tape, was part of the Tory plans to abolish a ‘health and safety’ culture that they claimed was hurting money-making businesses.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/metro.co.uk/2017/06/16/government-ministers-congratulated-themselves-for-cutting-fire-regulations-6713967/amp/

But it gets worse, last year ministers quietly abolished the need for newly built schools to be fitted with sprinkler systems...

https://www.facebook.com/AdSinistram.u.k/posts/569595306761650:0

And it's not just safety at a local level...

"Fears on how Tory party want post-Brexit bonfire of EU “red tape” on environment etc regulations."

http://www.airportwatch.org.uk/2017/03/fears-on-how-tory-party-want-post-brexit-bonfire-of-eu-red-tape-on-environment-etc-regulations/


Remember this?

19396923_569633140091200_7445143138586708257_n.jpg



Tom
 
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Danidl

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 29, 2016
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You watched Panorama and actually saw on screen the Fire Brigade Chief's report detailing the danger to this and other tower blocks. You saw on screen the written reply from Government Minister's refusing the water sprinkler request and you saw the fire travelling up the outside fabric of the building. You saw the tenants themselves telling of how they repeatedly warned the Council of what would happen......and yet....and yet...you say that you are waiting on the facts.
Obduracy is not compatible with self-respect in my view and your repeated attempts to reduce this tragedy to one concerning the minutia of building regulations and engineering criteria has little in common with self-respect either.
.. George, I am with Woosh on this matter. The failure at the tower was primarily an engineering failure. .. unless you are alleging that government ministers and their underlings deliberately choose flammable materials in the expectation that this would happen. You can accuse them of incompetence, disregard, arrogance, penny pinching etc and those accusations will have backing evidence when supported by the written reports of the professionals.. fire safety officers , fire chief, chartered surveyors.
Bide your time , get your ducks in a row and then hit them where it matters .. in court, in punitive damages, in elections, but street protest , particularly when you have public support is counterproductive.
Unless you are careful the narrative becomes about containing street violence not the underlying issue.
We all saw that the insulation, whether the top or base layers supported combustion,. This is an engineering failure, How such materials were chosen needs to be investigated, was it criminally negligent on the part of the specifing architects?, was it forced on them by budget cuts? .who authorised it . ? There is was a line of command going all the way up to the minister of the day.
 
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Woosh

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May 19, 2012
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We all saw that the insulation, whether the top or base layers supported combustion,.
apparently, there are loopholes in building regs allowing such material to be used if sandwiched between two sheets of metal whose thickness is not specified in the regulations.
Expect the contractors' lawyers to use this annex.
 

Danidl

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 29, 2016
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No fair-minded person could have reservations about our Justice system......good heavens no....perish the thought.
I mean Osgreave, Hillsborough, the wrongful imprisonment of the Scottish miners in 1984, the Guildford four and Maguire seven and the wrongful imprisonment of the Birmingham six....all of these are fitting tributes to the British Justice system. It's perhaps wrong of me to quote these cases however.....it might bolster my self-respect if I were to wait for evidence....you know...like a fair-minded person.
.. All the above are indictments of when politics interferes with the law, and there are plenty of other examples as well. There are also examples of where the law got it right.. the ultimate overturning of those same verdicts. In many of these cases the police were involved in the actions and committed perjury in the coverups. In an upcoming court case on the grenfell tower, they would not be implicated.
 

Danidl

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 29, 2016
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apparently, there are loopholes in building regs allowing such material to be used if sandwiched between two sheets of metal whose thickness is not specified in the regulations.
Expect the contractors' lawyers to use this annex.
... Building regs allow for a defense, but duty of care, professional responsibility can trump that. Professionals are expected to use their best judgement, expertise and knowledge in assessing risks, cannot simply relying on reading regulations from a book, and claiming to be a professional does not wash, in my opinion. The ethics committees of any of the engineering,legal, medical, or architectural bodies would support me on tha

It might serve as an adaquate defense for the company who physically installed the panels, provided they were working to the drawings from higher ranked certifiers
 

Woosh

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May 19, 2012
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what I am still not clear about is that the firemen put out the fridge fire - if the fridge fire had spread to the cladding, it must have gone through the windows.
why didn't they notice that the cladding was also on fire?

were there two fires instead of one?
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
52,874
30,418
what I am still not clear about is that the firemen put out the fridge fire - if the fridge fire had spread to the cladding, it must have gone through the windows.
Ot through an extractor fan/cookerhood fan extractor?

I very much doubt there were two separate fires, too much of coincidence.
.
 
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Woosh

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why would the owner turn on the extractor fan?

still a mystery.
 

oldtom

Esteemed Pedelecer
You can accuse them of incompetence, disregard, arrogance, penny pinching etc and those accusations will have backing evidence when supported by the written reports of the professionals.. fire safety officers , fire chief, chartered surveyors.
street protest , particularly when you have public support is counterproductive.

Let's just examine two of those complaints from the first selected quote: 'Disregard' and 'penny-pinching'. Those with responsibility are guilty of both and we don't need an inquest or investigation to tell us that formally. It's both common sense and a view which has been widely held by the inhabitants of that borough for several years. The supporting evidence exists and has been widely available for years.

As for you second offering 'Danidl', street protest and demonstrations are a valuable and age-old weapon for the public to exhibit their feelings about matters they otherwise feel powerless to control or in which might have any meaningful input. Generally, protest marches and large scale demos in the capital are not ignored by parliamentarians. That is because they fear losing their grip on power as they realise that they are few and the protesters are many.

Tom
 

Danidl

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 29, 2016
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Let's just examine two of those complaints from the first selected quote: 'Disregard' and 'penny-pinching'. Those with responsibility are guilty of both and we don't need an inquest or investigation to tell us that formally. It's both common sense and a view which has been widely held by the inhabitants of that borough for several years. The supporting evidence exists and has been widely available for years.

As for you second offering 'Danidl', street protest and demonstrations are a valuable and age-old weapon for the public to exhibit their feelings about matters they otherwise feel powerless to control or in which might have any meaningful input. Generally, protest marches and large scale demos in the capital are not ignored by parliamentarians. That is because they fear losing their grip on power as they realise that they are few and the protesters are many.

Tom
. The evidence seems overwhelmingly in favour of those in power being complicit in facilitating bad shoddy practices,. Court cases with the official sanction of prison sentences, properly recorded verdicts and the public embarrassment and humiliation which goes with that. Politicians who have been named and shamed in court reports won't seek re-election. Agencies which have colluded will be fined. What other outcome can you expect?

The public have already been reassured that there will be a public inquiry and the police have stated that there will be criminal investigations.. before the public demonstrations.
Where there might now be cause for public demonstration is on the tardiness in dealing with survivors and the dislocated.
 

Woosh

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May 19, 2012
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Warm night open window reduce fumes in room , . Look speculation gets one only so far, ..
After the fridge exploded, all the compressed refrigerant gas must have escaped.
Firemen usually check the area before leaving.
If the fridge fire blew the windows in the explosion, the firemen would have checked the area around the windows.
I find it strange that the firemen left the flat after extinguishing the fire to find the building ablaze outside later.
 
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Danidl

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 29, 2016
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After the fridge exploded, all the compressed refrigerant gas must have escaped.
Firemen usually check the area before leaving.
If the fridge fire blew the windows in the explosion, the firemen would have checked the area around the windows.
I find it strange that the firemen left the flat after extinguishing the fire to find the building ablaze outside later.
.. the refrigerant gas was probably pentane or butane .. used very commonly now and it would have leaked, ignited , burnt and been the cause of the initial fire. Theres maybe 50 grams of butane . plastics in the fridge then melted, including the polyurethane foam, that would have produced a thick black smoke. The foam itself might also contain additional pentane as a blowing agent, so it maintains combustion. ...
 

soundwave

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 23, 2015
16,369
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Open letter to:

Mr Neil Couling
Director General
Universal Credit Implementation

Dear Mr Couling

Landlords, throughout Great Britain, are experiencing unsustainable rental loss as a direct result of Universal Credit, particularly, in relation to the way in which the “housing element” is being administered. Despite phoning, e-mailing and complaining to Jobcentre Plus and regional Complaints & Resolution teams, our collective efforts have proved fruitless, frustrating and disheartening. The situation is getting worse, especially in areas, like e.g. London, Great Yarmouth, Inverness and East Lothian, where “Full Service” Universal Credit is now operating and arrears are running at 90%. Landlords understandably fear that as Full Service expands throughout GB so will these worrying problems.

Nearly every single tenant owes rent, either through the delay in first payment, which can take 6-12 weeks to process. In some cases, tenants are simply misspending the housing element, rather than using the funds to reduce or extinguish their rental liabilities. When that occurs, landlords make application for redirection of the funds. Many of those applications are mislaid, take months to process or are simply ignored. In the most alarming cases, DWP has simply ignored the red flags and pleas, raised by landlords and continued to make payments to delinquent tenants in the full knowledge £000’s of public funds was being used inappropriately.

Not surprisingly, the RLA and NLA are both reporting an increasing number of private sector landlords and letting agents refusing to accommodate Universal Credit reliant tenants. Lenders are also stipulating, that funds will not be provided where tenancies are intended for benefit tenants.

Was the Alternative Payment Arrangement scheme (APAs) not designed to safeguard landlords from these very problems; avoid the problem of vulnerable tenants mismanaging their finances; and prevent delinquent tenants from misusing public funds, putting at jeopardy their tenancy and exposing them to the vagaries of homelessness?

As Director General, you must be acutely aware and surely worried by what’s happening?

Evidence of repeated misuse of public funds is building as “Full Service” roll out starts to bite. Landlords like Caridon Property Solutions have been copying you into exchanges with your staff, over many months, and, in the past week, have drawn your attention to two cases involving nearly £12, 000 in rent arrears, caused by your staff failing to respond appropriately to multiple APA requests by landlords and their agents.

DWP’s excuses to date have Included: “We can’t speak to Landlords or agents without the consent of the tenant.” ……………A “Special Payment” (as compensation for rental loss) is not merited in such cases as the tenant is the primary cause of the problem”…………..“This is essentially a civil dispute between tenant & landlord”

Frankly, none of these statements reflect the true cause of the problem. It’s unquestionably, DWP maladministration of its own scheme, accompanied by complete ambivalence to the predicament of landlords’ reliance on these funds for their livelihood and ability to pay lenders. Had your staff acted in accordance with the scheme you created, most of these substantial losses could have been avoided.

The APA scheme was designed specifically for landlords. It requires our members to apply using a Non-secure UC 47 form which can either be sent by e-mail or FREEPOST. This version of the form was designed to “start a dialogue with landlords and agents”. It’s supposed to prompt a call from your staff, during which, the landlords’ bank details and the merits of the application can be discussed. You also provide a telephone number for landlords to call when they’re seeking an update on the progress of their application. Given the above, its’ absurd to suggest you can’t speak to landlords, without the tenant’s consent.

Landlords, having complied with the scheme’s requirements, in all respects, are surely entitled to be able to ask for progress updates; reasons for refusal; reasons for later redirection back to tenants, without discussion. Your colleague Mike Baker, Operations Director, in August 2015 acknowledged the landlords’ rights in this respect and confirmed to me, in writing, that on receipt of an APA request the “housing element” would be immediately suspended, pending a decision on the question of to whom the payment should be made. His commitment has not been honoured.

Members have repeatedly raised with your staff, concerns over the lack of independence, impartiality and objectivity during the internal stages of your “Complaints Process”. In your responses to members, you claim that cases are considered on their individual merits. However, if you examine the common thread of each response, it’s really nothing other than a standard reply, crafted by someone in your Policy Unit. It was your Policy Unit who prescribed “Special Payments” were NOT to be used in landlord APA applications for compensation. Interference of this type completely undermines the notion of cases being considered on their individual merits and suggests more of a sham complaints process.

The third stage of the Complaints Process (Independent Case Examiner) is truly the first time the complaint is looked at independently. Past reports from ICE suggest 50% of complaints are fully supported with a further 25% partially supported. At first, this looked a promising way to prosecute a complaint but we’ve since found it takes 15 months, on average, from referral to conclusion stage. A classic case of justice delayed, justice denied!

As an ex COSLA advisor to the Housing Benefit Standing Committee, Westminster I’ve spent 20 years dealing with DWP hierarchy, including the Policy Unit team in the Adelphi, London. My colleagues and I had a very fruitful relationship with this team who demonstrated a high level of knowledge and commitment to tackling and resolving problems. I’ve yet to see anything like that from you and your support team with maybe 1 or 2 exceptions.

Five years ago, I wrote an article “Hitting the DWP brick wall” which was published by the SFHA and private sector magazines, predicting the biggest problem with Universal Credit would be your department’s remote and ambivalent administration of the scheme. If anything, I underestimated just how problematic it would be.

In my opinion, something drastic is needed to overhaul the current APA and associated Complaints Processes as both are currently unfit for purpose. Apart from traveling the country, speaking to staff in the new Full Service areas, what are you doing to address the legitimate concerns of landlords?

reply
https://www.property118.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Neil-Couling.pdf
 
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flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
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My Croydon Council are the first London council announcing that sprinklers are to be fitted. Their 25 tower blocks over 10 storeys are all going to be equipped and £10 million has been allocated for the work. In addition fire safety inspection of all cladded buildings is proceeding.

Hopefully that will trigger others to follow.
.
 
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oldtom

Esteemed Pedelecer
The public have already been reassured that there will be a public inquiry
Those lawyers giving of their time to take up the case of the residents of Grenfell Tower, both living and dead, have expressed the wish for an inquest(s), rather than a public inquiry as in their experience, the government, and all its agencies plus local government have less influence in that forum whereas their agents exercise a lot of control in a public inquiry.

Tom
 

oldtom

Esteemed Pedelecer
My Croydon Council are the first London council announcing that sprinklers are to be fitted. Their 25 tower blocks over 10 storeys are all going to be equipped and £10 million has been allocated for the work. In addition fire safety inspection of all cladded buildings is proceeding.

Hopefully that will trigger others to follow.
.
Let's hope so 'flecc'.

Tom
 

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