Has anyone sought single vehicle approval and insurance, for a 250-1000w 15.5mph ebike?

jonathan75

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Apr 24, 2013
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James Brown's reply to Shemozzle99 contained this:

Although ‘Twist and Go’ cycles will require Type Approval according to the dates in EU 168/2013 the decision has been taken that cycles that have ‘Twist and Go’ capabilities up to 15.5 mph will not be considered as motor vehicles and therefore will not require registration, tax, insurance and rider licensing. Any cycle with ‘Twist and Go’ capability above this speed will be classed as a motor vehicle.

Although he doesn't say L1e-A, clearly it cannot mean the full moped L1e-B class.

But this is another example of the confusion I refer to above, since L1e-A requires a new class Q driving licence!
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Yes that phrase "motor vehicle" definitely doesn't seem a term of art contained in the Regulation or the Directive. It's a bit tricky to match it with the EU law. I think he means that above that speed will be L1e-A ("[a] light two-wheel powered vehicle"). The Drivers Licence page here says that cat p and q are for motor vehicles - so the idea that a 250w twist-and-go with pedals does not require a licence, is consistent with the idea it's not a motor vehicle.

What I gather from what you tell me (and is probably most of interest to fellow forum-goers here) is that it seems a throttle will be fine on your bike after 1 Jan 2016.

I guess where I'm more interested in, as a would-be Euro-cycle-tourer, is what the EU law really means, because this might tell me something about my rights to travel on a throttle pedelec.

Yes I agree the S-pedelec situation is a bit strange, it seems member states have discretion to vary domestic standards, although it's hard to follow how that is working here.
 

jonathan75

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Apr 24, 2013
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I've just put an ebike through as a motorbike and it was indeed a PITA.

I started the process in December and am still waiting on the registration as the original MSVA certificate got lost. The DVLA are pretty disorganised at the moment with lots of test centres closing.

There are many requirements to make a standard bike road legal, mainly being m/c tyres and e-marked everything. It is possible to use none emarked equipment, however the test centre will then have to carry out their own testing on each non emarked component to make sure regs are met.
Oh dear that doesn't sound encouraging!
 

Stalkingcat

Pedelecer
Jan 24, 2015
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It depends how much time you want to put into it and if you find that sort of thing enjoyable or not.
The MSVA in only in the UK and there isnt much difference between getting a 1000w bike through and a 10,000w bike through.
Each aspect involves a lot of head scratching; i.e brake lever end ball circumference.
Sounds fairly straight forward but then you realise that motorcycle levers wont fit bicycle lines and calipers, so you try to install m/c brakes but then you realise that the calipers don't fit bicycle rotors and so on, so you need to start getting creative with a fair bit of fabrication. That's just for the levers and there are about 30 head scratching issues like that but its possible.

E-marked tyres are another major hurdle. You will prob need to use motorcycle rims laced onto bicycle hubs but the spoke sizes are different, so again need to get creative.

If I was you, I'd wait and see on the new EU e-bike regs especially for that sort of power level, hopefully it will be easier??...
 
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anotherkiwi

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Jan 26, 2015
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I was a bit disturbed to read on page 54 that registration plate space will be required for l1e-a, also all the other arrangements like anti-tampering and 'lighting and light signalling devices' (which I don't find all that clear). I'm also confused about 'transitional' arrangements before 2016.
We have all guessed that there are member states just itching to tax bicycles, my guess is that this number plate provision is just some planing ahead by the powers that be.

and

"Annex IX Lighting and light signalling devices L1e-A White headlamp, red rear light, amber side reflectors, amber pedal reflectors and a red rear reflector. Type approval not required but manufacturer must declare conformity with ISO 6742-1:1987 and 6742-2:1985"

Nothing new here
 
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jonathan75

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Apr 24, 2013
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I think the best idea, as another forum member suggested, is to stick to a pedelec and print an official looking 250 Watt / 25 kph sticker for your 500-750 Watt motor and ride carefully.
I really liked this idea when I read your post, but after thought, I realise it would not only fulfil the conditions for all of the relevant driving-without-insurance and related offences, but also perverting the course of justice, by fabricating evidence(!) :eek: I may try to qualify as a solicitor or barrister at the end of my degree and either conviction would probably prevent my qualifying and practicing for life, as well as potentially working as a teacher. :confused: So back to the drawing board for me unfortunately. :(
 
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jonathan75

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Apr 24, 2013
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We have all guessed that there are member states just itching to tax bicycles, my guess is that this number plate provision is just some planing ahead by the powers that be.
Haha this just relates to L1e-A (possibly) types, i.e. mega-ebikes, so your bike is safe... for now! Until Brussels seizes power once and for all! ;)
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
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Yes that phrase "motor vehicle" definitely doesn't seem a term of art contained in the Regulation or the Directive. It's a bit tricky to match it with the EU law. I think he means that above that speed will be L1e-A ("[a] light two-wheel powered vehicle").
The snag I see is that getting the Vehicle Inspectorate to type approve a pedelec to have an independent acting throttle means they are certifying it as a motor vehicle, since they will only be able to type approve to L1e-A at a minimum. That is a motor vehicle class. The same applies for a manufacturer or supplier who employ an approved laboratory to type approve a pedelec model for sale. I see it as more than tricky to match this to EU law, I think it's impossible since that is clear, for an e-bike to be a bureacracy free pedelec, power must stop when pedalling stops.

Whether this is acceptable in the mainland EU depends on whether they accept what the DfT are saying. Since it came from their International Vehicle Standards department one might hope that they have consulted with the EU Commission. If the EU Commission have accepted this for member countries, one might then ask why there is a law that power must stop when pedalling stops.

Frankly I doubt it has been accepted for use elsewhere and see this as just a DfT blind eye for the UK to get around a difficult legacy situation where they illegally allowed independent throttles after the 2002/24/EC ruling against them, effective in UK law from10th November 2003. It may be that the EU accepts this expedient workaround for the UK on condition that there is conformity with the requirement for type approval.

But I see it as a legal mess and wonder what could happen in a civil case concerning a substantial personal injury insurance claim following an accident.

The Drivers Licence page here says that cat p and q are for motor vehicles - so the idea that a 250w twist-and-go with pedals does not require a licence, is consistent with the idea it's not a motor vehicle.
But see my reply above, throttle equipped with type approval to L1e-A means a pedelec has been certified to be a motor vehicle in law.

And of course group P is historic now, replaced by group AM for L1e-B mopeds and Q for L1e-A low powered mopeds.

What I gather from what you tell me (and is probably most of interest to fellow forum-goers here) is that it seems a throttle will be fine on your bike after 1 Jan 2016.
Only if it pre-existed the new regulations and therefore has "grandfather rights" or is type approved if not.

I guess where I'm more interested in, as a would-be Euro-cycle-tourer, is what the EU law really means, because this might tell me something about my rights to travel on a throttle pedelec.
Until I see an EU commission waiver or an appropriate written change for regulation 168/2013 in turn adopted into EU wide national laws, an independent acting throttle is not permitted in EU law. There really is no question about that in 168/2013's pedelec exemption clause (h) which specifies with crystal clarity that power must stop when pedalling stops.
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jonathan75

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Apr 24, 2013
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Until I see an EU commission waiver or an appropriate written change for regulation 168/2013 in turn adopted into EU wide national laws, an independent acting throttle is not permitted in EU law. There really is no question about that in 168/2013's pedelec exemption clause (h) which specifies with crystal clarity that power must stop when pedalling stops.
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I hear you. I've written to "Europe Direct" now so hopefully should get an answer soon. :)
 
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shemozzle999

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Sep 28, 2009
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jonathan75

Esteemed Pedelecer
Apr 24, 2013
794
213
Hertfordshire
I've written them a second email regarding l
Link to the European Commission libraries:

https://circabc.europa.eu/faces/jsp/extension/wai/navigation/container.jsp

and the historical commission minutes re: the 168/2013 proposals and check out below for the latest MCWG minutes regarding errors found in the regulation.

https://circabc.europa.eu/sd/a/5e881964-7cce-48a8-ba0e-b401811e5c56/Minutes 2013_04_19_MCWG_L_Cat_final.pdf


latest reports, search for "L1e-A" here :

https://circabc.europa.eu/faces/jsp/extension/wai/navigation/container.jsp
Well done for finding these - amazing.

Rather than pore through their implications (though i did read the minutes..) I've put about 16 quite carefully worded questions in two emails to the European Commission's "Europe Direct" portal to let them figure out and tell me what's the Union's definitive position on those questions. It was eating up my time so I thought best give it to them.
 
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flecc

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The EU still has various loose ends in the provisions. For example, the Construction regulation has it that lighting for L1e-A is still to be finalised, but the Safety regulation does have it finalised,.

Meanwhile the MWCG meeting had members still arguing over the issue of their lighting, despite the matter being previously finalised. It's the motorcycle interests being difficult as usual, unhappy at any easement for throttle equipped e-bikes as they made clear in that meeting yet again. They want them to be bound by the full moped laws of class L1e-B.
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shemozzle999

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If I have read it correctly the delegated regulations now allow L1e-A up to 40kph thus the S class could be included meaning that they all fall under the "powered cycle class" and not the moped class L1e-B.

edit: I did read it incorrectly - in the sound requirements still showing as:

L1e-B


Sub cat: Two-wheel moped - vmax ≤ 25 km/h


Sub cat: Two-wheel moped - vmax ≤ 45 km/h







Also noted that for testing speed figures have a +/- 5% tolerance not 10%.
 
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flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
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If I have read it correctly the delegated regulations now allow L1e-A up to 40kph thus the S class could be included meaning that they all fall under the "powered cycle class" and not the moped class L1e-B.

Also noted that for testing speed figures have a +/- 5% tolerance not 10%.
That would make sense since the S class just didn't sit easily anywhere in the regulations before. Some will have to be tamed though, since a number of them have been designed to a 45 kph limit.

If it is 40kph (25mph), I can well understand why the motorcycle and moped interests lobby are getting uptight about easements in the L1e-A regulations, since this could make greater inroads into their business.
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shemozzle999

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I believe that any limitations could be added to the S class by linking them on the basis of the maximum speed. I wonder if the additional requirement of noting the maximum speed on the nameplate was for that purpose.
 

shemozzle999

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Sep 28, 2009
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Where does it say this? Interesting because it could mean it's OK to have a 16.31mph bike (useful for zealous police -in Holland they have portable moped speed test ramps).
COMMISSION DELEGATED REGULATION (EU) No 44/2014

ANNEX II

3. Additional specific requirements for (sub)category L1e, L2e and L6e vehicles

3.1. The acceptable tolerance for maximum vehicle speed and/or power limitation of category L1e, L2e and L6e vehicles shall be ± 5 % of the maximum design vehicle speed and/or net and/or continuous rated power classification criteria referred to in Annex I to Regulation (EU) No 168/2013.
 
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shemozzle999

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Sep 28, 2009
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That would make sense since the S class just didn't sit easily anywhere in the regulations before. Some will have to be tamed though, since a number of them have been designed to a 45 kph limit.

If it is 40kph (25mph), I can well understand why the motorcycle and moped interests lobby are getting uptight about easements in the L1e-A regulations, since this could make greater inroads into their business.
.
Apologies - see my correction in post#34
 
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