Hydraulic Cable Brakes

saneagle

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I know some of us have these things, and I've heard various stories about them leaking. Today, those on my friend Mikel's bike needed attention because the brakes were no longer working like they were before. I could see that the levers on the calipers were bottoming out at the end of their travel, as if the oil had leaked out, but that's not it.

We put the bike up on the stand, removed a caliper and had a good look, then I figured it all out. The problem is that these calipers do not have a separate reservoir of oil, nor a hose full of it to adjust anything. When the pads wear, the pistons behind them have to travel further, which means a bigger volume behind them, which fills with oil from the lever actuating piston. In other words, as the pads wear, the lever will need to travel further because of the limited volume of oil in the system. Eventually. it reaches the end of its travel before fully clamping the disc. The system is fundamentally flawed because the volume of oil in the caliper needs to increase as the pads wear, but it's a closed sytem.

What that means is that you have two choices: Either you replace the pads with new ones when they're about 30% worn, or you put some more oil into the caliper. We chose the latter, which turned out to be a little more complicated than we thought, but it's pretty straight forward once you get your head around it.

I bought a cheap bleed kit and some oil from Aliexpress. This one colour A. You need the 4mm adapter:

With the caliper removed from the bike, tilt it so that the fill screw is at the highest point to stop oil coming out and air getting in, then remove the screw. Fit the tube and 4mm adapter to the syringe and fill with oil. Screw the adapter into the caliper. Now the syringe will work the brake when you squirt in more oil. The only problem is that the spring on the pads pulls them back as soon as pressure is released, so when you detatch the adapter, the oil that you squirted in squirts back out, leaving you where you started. The solution is to wedge the pads until they're touching. I used a couple of thin allen keys behind them, then you can squirt in the oil to move the pistons forward, and everything stays in place when you unscrew the adapter. Don't forget to keep the thing upright (and the tube) so that any air comes out. I squirted in and out a few times to remove any air bubbles. Finally screw in the fill-screw.

What you have now is the pads too close together, so you can't get them over the disc. You can't prise them open because there's nowhere for the oil to go, so what you do is loosen the fill-screw a bit at a time and retighten it to let the springs push some oil out until the gap between the pads is just enough to go over the disc. Be careful not to let the oil go on the pads.

That's it. Quite a lot of messing about for what should be a simple task, but it only takes about 5 minutes from start to finish once you've done one.

The difference is immediately noticeable. The brakes bit within a very small movement of the lever. I'd say that it's much better now than when new, so should last longer this time. They feel more like conventional hydraulic brakes than they did before.

In summary, it's not the oil leaking, it's the volume inside the caliper expanding.
 

Peter.Bridge

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Apr 19, 2023
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Really interesting, I wonder if all cable actuated hydraulic calipers have that same limitations ?

The super expensive road bike TRP Hy/Rd calipers (£200 for a pair) have :

"Heat-insulating hybrid pistons that adjust themselves to compensate for pad wear"
 

Waspy

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Sep 8, 2012
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The solution is to wedge the pads until they're touching. I used a couple of thin allen keys behind them, then you can squirt in the oil to move the pistons forward, and everything stays in place when you unscrew the adapter. Don't forget to keep the thing upright (and the tube) so that any air comes out. I squirted in and out a few times to remove any air bubbles. Finally screw in the fill-screw.
So, you wedge the allen keys between the pads and the caliper body, to close the pads together? Is that right? Leaving a gap between the pistons and the pads which gets closed as you squirt oil in?

Also, what did you squirt in and out a few times? The oil bottle?
 

saneagle

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Oct 10, 2010
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Really interesting, I wonder if all cable actuated hydraulic calipers have that same limitations ?
Any one without a reservoir has to be the same because they're closed systems. There are some with reservoirs that shouldn't suffer from that problem:



Whatever that temperature adjustment system is, it's small compared with the volume needed for pad wear compensation,
 
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saneagle

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Oct 10, 2010
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So, you wedge the allen keys between the pads and the caliper body, to close the pads together? Is that right? Leaving a gap between the pistons and the pads which gets closed as you squirt oil in?

Also, what did you squirt in and out a few times? The oil bottle?
That's right.

Squirt back and forth with the syringe.

If you had a spacer the thickness of the disc between the pads and a wedge to go behind one with clearance for the piston, then filled with oil, you'd get it right first time, instead of having to bleed excess oil out afterwards. When I have to do it again, I'll knock something up on my 3D printer.
 

Waspy

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Sep 8, 2012
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So, you wedge the allen keys between the pads and the caliper body, to close the pads together? Is that right? Leaving a gap between the pistons and the pads which gets closed as you squirt oil in?

Also, what did you squirt in and out a few times? The oil bottle?
I meant the syringe, not the oil bottle.
 

Waspy

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Sep 8, 2012
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If you had a spacer the thickness of the disc between the pads and a wedge to go behind one with clearance for the piston, then filled with oil, you'd get it right first time, instead of having to bleed excess oil out afterwards. When I have to do it again, I'll knock something up on my 3D printer.
Could you not just make a spacer slightly thicker than the rotor?
 

Waspy

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Sep 8, 2012
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Of course another (wasteful) alternative would be to buy a big box of pads from AliExpress and replace the pads everytime the brake lever was biting too close to the handlebar grips.
 

saneagle

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Oct 10, 2010
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Of course another (wasteful) alternative would be to buy a big box of pads from AliExpress and replace the pads everytime the brake lever was biting too close to the handlebar grips.
That could work. You can get the pads from Aliexpress for 60p a pair; however, the gap was a little too large in the first place when new. Personally, I hate waste, though it's a trade of wasted metal against wasted time, and I don't have much time left.
 

Waspy

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Sep 8, 2012
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Any one without a reservoir has to be the same because they're closed systems. There are some with reservoirs that shouldn't suffer from that problem:



Whatever that temperature adjustment system is, it's small compared with the volume needed for pad wear compensation,
Those brakes are for road bikes of course. Maybe someone will start making them for mountain/hybrid bikes soon.
 
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Sparksandbangs

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Jan 16, 2025
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All well and good but when you want to put new pads in they wont fit because there is too much oil in the system.
 

Nealh

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Sounds like an idea to make up some shims to place behind the pads when pad wear occurs, better then contaminating pistons/pads which may occur.
 

chris_n

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Sounds to me like a ridiculous compromise with extra points of failure! The worst of both worlds, ok maybe braking is better than a cable disc until it suddenly isn't! I suspect most of these are fitted as a replacement for a cable disc brake, how many people replace the inner cable which invariably will have some loss of strength due to having been crushed where the old system clamped? How many people 'loose' strands of inner when the ferrule is removed and the cables frays? I'm sure there are people that have done this correctly but I'm also sure most don't.
 

egroover

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What you need is an adjustment screw wheel on the caliper like you have on cable disc brake which you adjust as pads wear moving the pads closer to the rotor. You then wind it back when fitting new pads
 

Peter.Bridge

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Apr 19, 2023
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Sounds to me like a ridiculous compromise with extra points of failure! The worst of both worlds, ok maybe braking is better than a cable disc until it suddenly isn't! I suspect most of these are fitted as a replacement for a cable disc brake, how many people replace the inner cable which invariably will have some loss of strength due to having been crushed where the old system clamped? How many people 'loose' strands of inner when the ferrule is removed and the cables frays? I'm sure there are people that have done this correctly but I'm also sure most don't.
It seems very commonly upgrading basic, cable disc brakes on ebikes where people want to keep the sensor motor cut outs on the original brakes. There are options though to get fully hydraulic with integral cut outs for not much more. The other case is drop handlebar brakes where you would need to upgrade the whole groupset which would be very expensive
 

saneagle

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Oct 10, 2010
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I think it's important to know what the problem is and the process that causes it, which is why I shared it. When you have an understanding of what's going on, you can make your own solution. Whenever you do anything new, there are always unforseen circumstances. I fitted these brakes to learn about them. This problem was a minor setback, but fairly easy to fix and control in the future now that we know about it.

All things considered, I think normal hydraulic brakes will always be a better solution unless you have drop handlebars. One thing is sure, though, they're a lot better and need less adjustment than cable disc brakes.

I have my own adjustment method now, which I'll use to adjust them in future. It'll take about 2 minutes at most. Do it with the bike leaning away from you at around 45 deg:
  • Fill the syringe/tube/adapter with oil
  • undo the filler screw
  • screw in the syringe adapter
  • lever the pad forward with an old spoke or thin allen key, and hold it there against the disc (not too tight)
  • squirt in the oil
  • remove the syringe adapter and refit the filler screw.
 

Raboa

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Aug 12, 2014
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What's the make of the brakes? Are they cable (as in a normal brake cable) activated hydraulic disk brakes?
When you buy disk brakes they should come with a plastic shim that fits between the pistons This stops the pistons closing together when doing maintenance.
If the reservoir has a certain amount of oil in it when bought then I would not go by over that amount
If it cable activated then use the barrel adjuster to put more tension on the cable, this will bring the cable attachments closer together on the caliper resulting in the brake lever not requiring so much of a squeeze .
 

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