don't judge them on a second hand bad experience,,,,with a new battery i think pound for pound they are one of the best value bikes around..... they can do over 30 miles and the batteries are reasonably cheap...not many bikes meet that criteria even those that are double the price...if you are after cheap ebiking.....unbeatable...in my opinion....although i would like to try a wisper/kalkhoff/trek just to see if they are worth the extra dosh.