The Anything Thread that is Never off subject.

MikelBikel

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jun 6, 2017
2,062
400
Ireland
It's not Pfizer, it's the FDA which wants to keep their contract with Pfizer and vaccines authorisation details secret until 2096.
Apparently, the FDA received documents from vaccines makers warning it about all sorts of issues with their vaccines prior to their emergency use authorisation.
So you're saying that P f I z e r DID know about the harm it would cause to billions. And went ahead anyway, coz, you know, Money makes it alright?
So seance-tific.. it's dangerous or lethal junk, but let's make it anyway and fill our pockets, sterilize the population. Sounds deliberate and malicious intent aforethought?
Fingers crossed for Nuremberg 2 :)
 

Woosh

Trade Member
May 19, 2012
21,617
17,425
Southend on Sea
wooshbikes.co.uk
So you're saying that P f I z e r DID know about the harm it would cause to billions. And went ahead anyway, coz, you know, Money makes it alright?
So seance-tific.. it's dangerous or lethal junk, but let's make it anyway and fill our pockets, sterilize the population. Sounds deliberate and malicious intent aforethought?
Fingers crossed for Nuremberg 2 :)
The defendant in court case on freedom of information is the FDA. They lost in 2022.
The FDA admitted that the total page count was at least 451,000.
Biden chipped in asking for the information to be released.The information is now in the public domain. Why don't you fact check?


Dear Editor

In our previous rapid response of October 2022, we noted that the FDA still had not released a key dataset needed to reliably reproduce Pfizer’s safety and efficacy analyses of its covid-19 vaccine phase 3 pivotal trial (trial IDs: C4591001; NCT04368728), more than 9 months after data release commenced.[1] The dataset is known as ADSL (Subject-Level Analysis Data).

We thought it worthwhile to let readers know that the ADSL dataset was finally released by FDA in the March 2023 tranche.[2]

In addition, readers may be interested to know that on 9 May, U.S. District Judge Mark T. Pittman ordered the FDA to produce all documents FDA relied upon to license Pfizer's vaccine to 12-15 year olds and Moderna vaccine for adults.[3] The FDA, which is legally required to produce these documents,[4] proposed a production schedule that would take "at least 23.5 years" to complete, according to Judge Pittman.[3] Pittman, however, stated that "while the Court recognizes the limited resources that the FDA has dedicated to FOIA requests, the number of resources an agency dedicates to such requests does not dictate the bounds of an individual’s FOIA rights," and ordered all documents be produced by June 31, 2025. We understand that documents, once received from FDA by Public Health and Medical Professionals for Transparency (PHMPT), will be made available on the PHMPT website.[5][6]

Peter Doshi
Linda Wastila
 
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Tony1951

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jul 29, 2025
267
81
It is very easy to trash politicians and their advisers about what happened during the pandemic.

They made good and bad decisions based on what they knew at the time. As far as I know, they did their best.

I am put in mind of a saying of Donald Rumsfeld in the year 2000 about the hunt for Bin Laden. At the time, I laughed at it, because I thought it was gobbledegook, but now, I think he was onto something important which actually fits in with the problem faced by politicians during covid.

"There are known knowns, known unknowns and unknown unknowns. Effective intelligence work must consider them all."

When Covid became known to our politicians around January 2020, the first information was that a strange new form of pneumonia was circulating in the Chinese mega city of Wuhan, but that soon began to change.

First it was proving fatal in a few people. Then it was proving fatal in a lot of people - especially older people.

There were questions about how it was spreading:
Airborne?
Contact with infected surfaces?

The UK Department of health was very constrained by its prior pandemic planning which was pretty scant. They had a few sheets of A4 basically - all about new strains of influenza. That was what they expected, but covid wasn't influenza. It was an escaped experiment from a lab and extremely easily passed from person to person, absolutely unlike EVERY zoozosis transfer we have ever seen. They always pass person to person with difficulty at first until having been inside humans for a while, they naturally evolve to jump from person to person. Covid-19 was not like that. It spread like wildfire from the moment it appeared.

The point I am making here is that the politicians had no idea what they were dealing with and at first they were reacting on misinformation - partly from the Chinese desire to play things down, and partly from the mind set of our Department of Health that had prepared a scant document about new influenza outbreaks based on the fear of what happened in 1918 with the so called Spanish Flu outbreak which actually started in America.


Then the covid epidemic got hold in Northern Italy. Lombardy had close contact with manufacturing businesses in Wuhan.

The situation in Lombardy looked horrific.

The hospitals were rapidly overwhelmed. People were arriving outside them with gravely ill relatives but the capability to cope was already beyond limits, and the patients could not be admitted.

Families of elderly relatives were distraught as their loved ones, unable to breathe, died in car parks without medical attention.

Covid ran riot in old people's homes. There were care homes where the staff ran away in terror, faced with rooms full of dead inmates. Police were called to care homes where all the residents were dead and the staff had fled in terror.

By about February 2020 the Known Knowns were pretty horrific. The known unknowns included how well the NHS, Care Homes, food and goods distribution systems would cope. The news from Lombardy was that this disease could be a massive national disaster.

Unknown unknowns included what it might do to any category of people and how many would possibly die or be utterly ruined. Some elderly people were gradually suffocating with pneumonia, while others had nothing more than a bad cold.

Most younger people were having a bad cold, but some were ruined, and some died. Take as an example Derek Draper husband of a BBC presenter and someone I once met in person. He wasn't old or obese. He didn't fit the profile of a vulnerable person, but he was gravely ill, recovered slightly, but was left pretty much a cabbage. He died a couple of years later at 56.

At first there seemed to be no obvious treatment for the bad cases. It became obvious over weeks that the victims own immune system reacted so virulently to the infection that it was killing them.

Various drugs were tried. Some had no measurable effect, but were greatly esteemed by the uninformed public online. Ivermectin was one such. Donald Trump went on record musing about why perhaps bleach could be taken and would maybe be a good idea.

In the end a very cheap steroid seemed to be about the best treatment to dampen down the thing which was killing most of those who died. The fatal immune system over reaction to the virus. It didn't work for all, but it did work for many.

Vaccines looked like the only way to escape. People of great talent were working on them.

People in government didn't know how bad it could get, or whether it would bring our society to total chaos. They made decisions with what knowledge they had.

Many now question those decisions.

Hindsight gives us 20/20 vision.


They brought in lockdown.
Stay at home
Do not go to work unless you are an essential worker
We will borrow massive amounts of money and pay 80% of your wages

They made heroic efforts to produce a vaccine - the Oxford vaccine produced in bulk by AstraZenica.

Government paid all the costs. It was shown to help reduce likelihood of infection. It was shown to lessen the severity of infection if you did develop it.
Severe reactions were few, but they did occur.

Across the world other vaccines were developed very quickly. Some worked better than others. Some had more or fewer side effects or severe reactions.

Were the decisions perfect?

Of course not.

How could they be.

Did all concerned do their best?

I think they did, given what they knew when they took action.

It is an unequivocal fact that millions of people died from covid-19.
A very small number died of vaccine reactions. The number is tiny in comparison the those that were saved by those vaccines.

It is an unequivocal truth that many many millions of people are alive today who would have died if vaccines and social restrictions had not been used.


How would YOU and I have done if we had been in charge? All I can say, is that I am glad that I was not presented with that responsibility.
 
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Woosh

Trade Member
May 19, 2012
21,617
17,425
Southend on Sea
wooshbikes.co.uk
partly from the Chinese desire to play things down
On the contrary. The Chinese took it much more seriously than any Western democracies.
It was simple, the WHO originally estimated that fatality rate was 2%. Do the simple math. We wouldn't have had enough coffins and would be forced to use mass graves.
 
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flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,616
30,883
It is very easy to trash politicians and their advisers about what happened during the pandemic.

They made good and bad decisions based on what they knew at the time. As far as I know, they did their best.

I am put in mind of a saying of Donald Rumsfeld in the year 2000 about the hunt for Bin Laden. At the time, I laughed at it, because I thought it was gobbledegook, but now, I think he was onto something important which actually fits in with the problem faced by politicians during covid.

"There are known knowns, known unknowns and unknown unknowns. Effective intelligence work must consider them all."

When Covid became known to our politicians around January 2020, the first information was that a strange new form of pneumonia was circulating in the Chinese mega city of Wuhan, but that soon began to change.

First it was proving fatal in a few people. Then it was proving fatal in a lot of people - especially older people.

There were questions about how it was spreading:
Airborne?
Contact with infected surfaces?

The UK Department of health was very constrained by its prior pandemic planning which was pretty scant. They had a few sheets of A4 basically - all about new strains of influenza. That was what they expected, but covid wasn't influenza. It was an escaped experiment from a lab and extremely easily passed from person to person, absolutely unlike EVERY zoozosis transfer we have ever seen. They always pass person to person with difficulty at first until having been inside humans for a while, they naturally evolve to jump from person to person. Covid-19 was not like that. It spread like wildfire from the moment it appeared.

The point I am making here is that the politicians had no idea what they were dealing with and at first they were reacting on misinformation - partly from the Chinese desire to play things down, and partly from the mind set of our Department of Health that had prepared a scant document about new influenza outbreaks based on the fear of what happened in 1918 with the so called Spanish Flu outbreak which actually started in America.


Then the covid epidemic got hold in Northern Italy. Lombardy had close contact with manufacturing businesses in Wuhan.

The situation in Lombardy looked horrific.

The hospitals were rapidly overwhelmed. People were arriving outside hospitals with gravely ill relatives but the services were already overwhelmed and the patients could bot be admitted.

Families brought elderly relatives, who were unable to breathe and they died in carparks.

Covid ran riot in old people's homes in Lombardy. There were care homes where the staff ran away in fear, faced with rooms full of dead inmates. Police came to old people's homes where all the residents were dead and the staff had fled in terror.

By about February 2020 the Known Knowns were pretty horrific. The known unknowns included how well the NHS, Care Homes, food and goods distribution systems would cope. The news from Lombardy was that this disease could be a massive national disaster.

Unknown unknowns included what it might do to any category of people and how many would possibly die or be utterly ruined. Some old people were dropping dead - gradually suffocating with pneumonia. Some had a bad cold. Most younger people were having a bad cold, some were wrecked and some died. Take as an example Derek Draper. He wasn't old or obese, but he was gravely ill and later was left pretty much a cabbage.

At first there seemed to be no obvious treatment.

Various drugs were tried. Some had no measurable effect, but were greatly esteemed by the ordinary public online. Ivermectin was one such. Donald Trump went on record musing about why bleach would maybe be a good idea.

In the end a very cheap steroid seemed to be about the best treatment to dampen down the thing which was killing most of those who died. The fatal immune system over reaction to the virus. It didn't work for all, but it did work for many.

Vaccines looked like the only way to escape. People of great talent were working on vaccines.

People in government didn't know how bad it could get, or whether it would bring our society to total chaos. They made decisions with what knowledge they had.

Many now question those decisions.

Hindsight gives us 20/20 vision.


They brought in lockdown.
Stay at home
Do not go to work unless you are an essential worker
We will borrow massive amounts of money and pay 80% of your wages

They made heroic efforts to produce a vaccine - the Oxford vaccine produced in bulk by AstraZenica.

Government paid all the costs. It was shown to help reduce likelihood of infection. It was shown to lessen the severity of infection if you did develop it.
Severe reactions were few, but they did occur.

Across the world other vaccines were developed very quickly. Some worked better than others. Some had more or fewer side effects or severe reactions.

Were the decisions perfect?

Of course not.

How could they be.

Did all concerned do their best?

I think they did, given what they knew when they took action.

It is an unequivocal fact that millions of people died from covid-19.
A very small number died of vaccine reactions. The number is tiny in comparison the those that were saved by those vaccines.

It is an unequivocal truth that many many millions of people are alive today who would have died if vaccines and social restrictions had not been used.


How would YOU and I have done if we had been in charge? All I can say, is that I am glad that I was not presented with that responsibility.

"There are known knowns, known unknowns and unknown unknowns. Effective intelligence work must consider them all."
If your long post was in any way a comment on my reply to Woosh containing this comment:

"As of 5 May 2023, there were over 208,000 deaths

Out of 68 millions. A pandemic yes for 1 in 327, but one of the shortest lived so not exactly the Black Death. And even much of that proportion dying was due to political ineptitude as I insisted at the time and later with data as you well know."


It's completely inappropriate.

As Woosh knows, my criticism was of the ridiculously excessive fines being imposed by Matt Hancock, Health Secretary at the time. They were a prime mover of the public rebellion against the Covid regulations, leading to marches and other large demonstrations of protest and many going further by refusing to accept any vaccines, all making the widespread infection potential much worse and leading to a clearly unnecessary excess of deaths.
.
 
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Tony1951

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jul 29, 2025
267
81
If your long post was in any way a comment on my reply to Woosh containing this comment:

"As of 5 May 2023, there were over 208,000 deaths

Out of 68 millions. A pandemic yes for 1 in 327, but one of the shortest lived so not exactly the Black Death. And even much of that proportion dying was due to political ineptitude as I insisted at the time and later with data as you well know."


It's completely inappropriate.

As Woosh knows, my criticism was of the ridiculously excessive fines being imposed by Matt Hancock, Health Secretary at the time. They were a prime mover of the public rebellion against the Covid regulations, leading to marches and other large demonstrations of protest and many going further by refusing to accept any vaccines, all making the widespread infection potential much worse and leading to a clearly unnecessary excess of deaths.
.
It wasn't.
 
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Tony1951

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jul 29, 2025
267
81
It wasn't.
This is the nothing is off topic thread

I was thinking about the way politicians across the world have been often criticised for judgements when what they knew when they made them, were honestly made and insofar as they were in line with the best information they had, were reasonable at the time. Some politicians in some places may have made bad decisions through ignoring the best available advice and they may well be fairly criticised.

Whether Hancock was right to impose fines on people who disobeyed the stay at home restrictions is a matter of debate. It depends how we with our current perspective looking back, weigh preventing the spread of a largely unknown and apparently (as far as they knew) quite deadly pathogen, against the values of freedom. I doubt knowing what we now know, anyone thinks those restrictions were necessary. But that is because we now know more about how many people the pathogen would kill, and how much the restrictions actually prevented spread. We now know that it was spread anyway within families.
 

Tony1951

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jul 29, 2025
267
81
On the contrary. The Chinese took it much more seriously than any Western democracies.
It was simple, the WHO originally estimated that fatality rate was 2%. Do the simple math. We wouldn't have had enough coffins and would be forced to use mass graves.
The Chinese at the beginning, suppressed information and put medical people in prison who departed from their official line.

If the Chinese government when they first knew they had an outbreak had told the truth and publicised it, other governments could have stopped travel from China and saved many many lives.

It is true that they imposed more draconian restrictions on going out. They welded the doors of apartments shut, but by then, the disease had spread across the planet.

They have systematically prevented proper analysis of its origin and they have hidden their own death toll to pad the reputation of the CCP.

I don't know why you ALWAYS whitewash the appalling record of the Chinese Communist Party government.

I like Chinese people. By and large they make very good immigrants. They are clever, hard working and they value good relations with other people. They do not demand special consideration, and respect the host nation's culture. They are polite and law abiding. None of those characteristics apply to the system of government operated by the Communist Party in China.

I do not seek in any way at all to interfere in their internal policies. But I do and rightly criticise the way they suppressed and continue to suppress information about covid.
 
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Tony1951

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jul 29, 2025
267
81
As for whether the pretty useless Hancock was responsible for people refusing vaccines, I don't think that is at all true. There was already a massive, ill-informed movement against vaccination, that had been fuelled by the charlatan, Andrew Wakefield late of this parish (UK) and many other lunatics -especially in the United States among the vast army of ignorant fools who get their news and views from social media - always denouncing experts with ad hominem slurs about 'who pays them?' That was at large and active five or ten years before. It is still going on. I recently received a terrible news paper style rag through my letter box all about the evils of vaccines. Utter trash from start to finish. I also had one earlier about the terrible effects of 5g network coverage. Rubbish, believed in by an army of fools and fanatics. The normal curve describing the distribution of mental ability in the population is the best explanation of this problem. It affects many aspects of our life as a society.

A lot of people are pretty stupid and a lot are more or less uneducated at any kind of sophisticated level. They are unsurprisingly prone to error.

64336


Of course, people were naturally resentful of the restrictions.

On the other hand, I liken the situation in early 2020 up until we got the at risk groups vaccinated, to a wartime type situation. It was perfectly reasonable at that time to regard the horrible restrictions as a necessary evil.

Turns out - so were the restrictions. There were many evils which flowed from the well intentioned impositions. We can weigh the two sides dispassionately and with 20 20 hindsight.

That is a luxury not afforded to those in power in 2020.
 

MikelBikel

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jun 6, 2017
2,062
400
Ireland
The defendant in court case on freedom of information is the FDA. They lost in 2022.
The FDA admitted that the total page count was at least 451,000.
Biden chipped in asking for the information to be released.The information is now in the public domain. Why don't you fact check?


Dear Editor

In our previous rapid response of October 2022, we noted that the FDA still had not released a key dataset needed to reliably reproduce Pfizer’s safety and efficacy analyses of its covid-19 vaccine phase 3 pivotal trial (trial IDs: C4591001; NCT04368728), more than 9 months after data release commenced.[1] The dataset is known as ADSL (Subject-Level Analysis Data).

We thought it worthwhile to let readers know that the ADSL dataset was finally released by FDA in the March 2023 tranche.[2]

In addition, readers may be interested to know that on 9 May, U.S. District Judge Mark T. Pittman ordered the FDA to produce all documents FDA relied upon to license Pfizer's vaccine to 12-15 year olds and Moderna vaccine for adults.[3] The FDA, which is legally required to produce these documents,[4] proposed a production schedule that would take "at least 23.5 years" to complete, according to Judge Pittman.[3] Pittman, however, stated that "while the Court recognizes the limited resources that the FDA has dedicated to FOIA requests, the number of resources an agency dedicates to such requests does not dictate the bounds of an individual’s FOIA rights," and ordered all documents be produced by June 31, 2025. We understand that documents, once received from FDA by Public Health and Medical Professionals for Transparency (PHMPT), will be made available on the PHMPT website.[5][6]

Peter Doshi
Linda Wastila
I'm not talking about the papers, they are the evidence. I mean the unalives and adverse effects allegedly caused *Deliberately* by Pharma. There is no "immunity" defence or statute of limitations on Deliberate harm charges.

You should also take a look at the emails sent telling distributors Not to Send all the Lethal shots to the Same Locations. Another evidential red flag. :)
 

Woosh

Trade Member
May 19, 2012
21,617
17,425
Southend on Sea
wooshbikes.co.uk
I mean the unalives and adverse effects allegedly caused *Deliberately* by Pharma. There is no "immunity" defence or statute of limitations on Deliberate harm charges.

You should also take a look at the emails sent telling distributors Not to Send all the Lethal shots to the Same Locations. Another evidential red flag. :)
Has somebody tested this theory in court? If not, why not? According to you, there's a red flag, right?
 

MikelBikel

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jun 6, 2017
2,062
400
Ireland
Has somebody tested this theory in court? If not, why not? According to you, there's a red flag, right?
Only the EUSSR's own tame "court" case about the "Con-tract" secretly agreed for €35B, wow! Imagine being able to write that sort of cheque, with No Democratic oversight. Just a Text. And even though they found her guilty, still no repercussions.
I vonder, von der vhy?
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,616
30,883
Whether Hancock was right to impose fines on people who disobeyed the stay at home restrictions is a matter of debate.
Again a clarification. I wasn't being critical of him imposing fines, just his ever increasing idiocy of ever increasing fines, reaching the level of £10,000 being imposed on even young unemployed people who would never have any possibility of paying them.

Regardless of how unknown any situation is, there can never, ever be any justification for that.

It didn't only lead to public anarchy, it led to official anarchy too, for example Greater Manchester Police arbitrarily reducing one 18 year old's £10,000 fine to £400, something they had no authority whatsoever to do. Someone up there must have had a brainstorm, even to think they could.
.
 

Tony1951

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jul 29, 2025
267
81
I think Hancock was utterly useless. He appeared on many evenings in those covid briefings looking like a rabbit caught in the headlights of a speeding, forty-ton truck.

It is the opinion of Cummings, to whom really we owe the success of the vaccine program which was brought about by his forcing Boris to appoint an expert group to manage the vaccine program, that everything Hancock touched turned to ashes. He fought to keep Hancock and the Department of Health well away from all of the vaccine planning.

One part they did have was the distribution of covid vaccines, until Cummings got it taken away from them because it was in chaos. There were piles of vaccine in places which did not need such amounts and none where they were desperate to get any and had a small army of vaccinators standing idle with queues of vulnerable people ready to have it. Cummings put the organisation into the hands of a special forces general skilled in logistics and it all came right.

Hancock was a total disaster, and so was the head of the UK Health Security Agency Dr Jenny Harries. Harries announced that the UK had plenty of PPE when nurses were wearing bin bags.

The Civil Service were focused on keeping to procurement rules in buying PPE and wanted to ship it by boat. Cummings persuaded Boris to contact the airlines (which were completely shut down at the time) to commandeer the planes and fly out that night, collect it and bring it back from China next day.

 
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Woosh

Trade Member
May 19, 2012
21,617
17,425
Southend on Sea
wooshbikes.co.uk
It was a reply to MikelBikel who believed that Von der Lyen must have taken bribes from her old university mate who then run Pfizer.
The two of them discussed covid vaccines on their private phones.

Only the EUSSR's own tame "court" case about the "Con-tract" secretly agreed for €35B, wow! Imagine being able to write that
 

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