Boby

Flyer F is still a winer Flyer F is (or was) available since 1999. The width of Flyer F motor crank is 8cm (3in). 8cm is typical bike crank width. Chuan-Xin Technology motor crank looks far wider. Maybe even this motor crank is uncomfortably wide. I wonder why Flyer F old concept is still so difficult to imitate.

I finally came to the conclusion that perfect ebike is the one designed by the rider. Now I am talking to the frame manufacturer. Any input of experienced ebikers would be warmly welcomed. IDEA It was flecc to say that drive through gears systems can have some advantages and perform better than hub motors in off road high speed rides (here). In fact this is my goal. I am looking for a standard pedelec with an off road high speed mode. Off road mode should enable the bike to go ~40kph (assisted) on (empty) road. This bike should be a simple and universal commuting machine. EXISTING SYSTEMS Cyclone Australia distributor shows that 200W motor can help to maintain a speed of 40kph (here). This video confirms what flecc was saying about chain drive systems. No 200W hub motor would assist the biker at this speed. One would need at least 500W and much heavier battery. kraeuterbutter presents some projects with motor installed in the front of the crank. This system has many advantages, mainly gear range (in absence of Rohloff). Because of simplicity I will use older idea promoted by Cyclone – one chain drive system ( ). I will wait for Shimano 11 speed hub (400% range) and try to survive till Sept using Shimano 8 gears. Other systems are on the horizon. pashiran (South Korea) uses a Cyclone motor in an easily detachable way ( ). Unfortunately the inventor says that power transfer still was not smooth. However the idea is great. FRAME/WHEEL SIZE The frame will be made of aluminum. It does not have to be reasonable but is very popular. Standard XC frame seems to be very nervous. This is probably due to typical for XCs head angle. I am looking for something more stable at 20-30kph. More stable than XC but still maneuverable. Should it be a geometry adapted from roadster or city bike (here, here)? DH frames and DH bikes can offer suitable geometry. I was also considering Cycletool Attack (here). This bike will need the motor in front of the crank like in bikes presented by kaeuterbutter or in bike finished this winter by a colleague in Russia ( ). Motor will be placed between the crank and the rear wheel (with Schwalbe Big Apple tire). No space in a typical mountain bike. Cyclone kit has small chainring (strange and unexplainable). Planned bike may have chainring 48T large (to be reconsidered – optimal cadence! I computed it long time ago and cannot find the file). I think that 24 in large wheel is a good compromise between portability and stability (gyroscopic effect). The handlebar height should be regulated to various riding styles (English roadster vs. European city bike). I believe that in terms of portability the master is Flyer i:SY (here). The problem is the wheel size. At 25-30kph 24 in should be a better idea. QUESTIONS Is the concept above reasonable? Any mistakes? What should I improve or take under consideration? I do not know whether front suspension would be needed. Bikers using Cyclone and Cyclone-like stuff recommend full suspension bikes. I want hardtail but did not decide whether the front wheel would be suspended. Isn’t Schwalbe Big Apple in front wheel good enough in terms of shock absorptive power? Kraeuterbutter – this Akkuflasche is a great idea. I will need 24V ~20Ah, can be in two separate bottles. Do you have any guidelines where to buy batteries and other stuff?

Cyclone kit works with a modified crank mechanism I saw in Warsaw Bimoto crank mechanism . It is offered by a Cyclone distributor also with Cyclone motors Bimoto electric bikes. The idea and make similiar to Elation kit. This crank transmitted the power generated by Honda engines attached to bikes (a video) Bike with a Honda engine. You may look at EcoSpeed site EcoSpeed. Their chain drive system is designed for recumbrents. Sunstar ibike SO2 may also be suitable but I am not sure whether it is still available in the market Sunstar French Distributor.

john – I understand that 80% of RPM is the optimum level. What would be the useful RPM range of a brushless electric motor installed in an e-bike (we talk about high/normal speed motors, not direct drive hubs)? Let’s take into consideration the standard motor with the max load RPM – 300. The max motor power is irrelevant for the purpose of this calculation. • Optimal RPM level is 240 (80% of max load RPM). • Typical (optimal) cadence – 60. • Good drive system should allow the rider and the motor to work together at their optimal cadence/RPM. • The motor 240RPM = the rider cadence 60 (4 : 1). • Chainring – 52 teeth (20” bike). • The motor gear 13 teeth = 52 teeth chainring (1 : 4). Is that correct? Please look at Cyclone motors technical data: Cyclone motors. They declare motors efficiency 97,5 – 93%. Is it possible? I understand they report only the motors efficiency without mentioning about the RPM reduction (smaller engines are equipped with planetary gears 9,5 : 1). Anyway – it looks impressive. Assuming this data is reliable – is such a high efficiency typical for fast rotating motors?

Additional chain drive resistance: I had never tested the Panasonic system. The idea looks similar to a basic Cyclone kit (picture 1) – one chain shared by the rider and the motor. The Cyclone kit motor mechanism creates a significant chain rolling resistance. It was irritating when riding without the electric assistance. Does Panasonic drive produce the same drag without electricity? Geared hubs efficiency: I saw a draft showing efficiency of various hubs with 7-9 gears compared to Rohloff speedhub. Rohloff declared a flat 98% efficiency and competitors ~96% at a direct gear and minimum ~92% at lowest gears. Unfortunately I cannot find this website now. I think that the chain drive e-bike system should meet two conditions: 1. The design – the motor useful RPM range should be equal to the rider’s most efficient cadence range. Probably the motor max RPM should be equal to the highest attainable cadence (eg. 90, but adjustable to individual preferences). AND 2. The ride – the motor should always work at the efficient RPM range equivalent to the optimal cadence range, eg. 50-90. The optimal motor RPM should be maintained regardless of the rider’s pedaling input. Even if the rider is not pedaling (assuming that the motor can work independently), the cadence should be 50-90 in order to keep the motor in the efficient RPM range. The second condition requires rider’s input. Maintaining the motor RPM (and the cadence) in the most efficient range requires some training. Probably a cadence sensor should help (just like a car tachometer). A cadence information will be of crucial importance if the rider stops pedaling for any reason. No pedaling means no cadence (and RPM) control. This may lead to a wrong (inefficient) gear choice and may result in a shorter range. The system which may meet both conditions may look as showed in the second/third/fourth picture. Two separate chains and two freewheels allow for a pedaling-only ride, for a motor-driven ride and for a hybrid ride. Various crankset and motor chainrings sizes can help to obtain the optimal gearing. It means that the first condition is not met. If you start pedaling fast the motor becomes a freewheel – am I right? Your article also describes a mass market product. I think that the condition (2) requires a lot of training and discipline from the rider. Glaring at the tachometer and changing gears is not what you expect to do when riding the e-bike. Therefore a product meeting conditions (1) and (2) would be properly used only by enthusiasts in no-speed-limit countries (ie. very rare).

Gentlemen – thank you for your explanations. It sounds very reasonable. You confirmed that motors using gears may be more effective in untypical conditions – eg. at low speeds without pedaling assistance (climbing ability). I still focus on maximum speed. One reason is that I am more interested in max speed at this moment and the second is that I find it easier to make calculations using max speed argument (lack of technical education). You said that one great advantage of the motor hub is that it does not use chain and it saves on standard bike transmission loses. I think that we may ignore transmission loses since any simple well maintained derailleur system offers 98-99% efficiency. Even 95% efficiency should allow us to ignore this element. Let me come back to the car gearbox analogy. A motor hub (esp. direct drive, but also geared hub) is like a car using one gear. Usually the 3rd one. The engine can move the car and you can drive pretty fast as well. If you have an opportunity to use 5 gears, you can start easier (1st and 2nd) and you can drive faster (4th and 5th) – with the same engine. This analogy is imperfect at least for two basic reasons: 1. the electric motor useful RPM range is far more wider than useful RPM range in any internal combustion engine. AND 2. as flecc pointed out – the electric bike has two power sources: the motor and the rider. The rider can support the motor when it is inefficient (low speeds). The idea of power assisted bike is based on the assumption that the biker keeps on pedaling even when motor works. But maybe this analogy is still reasonable (to certain extent). Let me give you an example, let figures talk (German speaking people would probably say: Zahlen erzählen) I take a reputable motor, Suzhou Bafang SVXK (Suzhou Bafang Electric Motor Science-Technology Co.,Ltd.). 250W, max load 195RPM. I am trying to check what would be the maximum speed of the bike. To make matters simpler I assume that we have no pedaling assistance. In the calculations below I use two bike simulators: Human Powered Vehicle Speed Simulator and Cycling: Steady State Power Equation. The bike's weight = 30kg, the biker's weight = 80kg, high rider, relaxed position, wide slicks. Let’s assemble the motor in a 26” wheel, semi-slick wide tires 26x1,95. Max load 195RPM produces the speed of 22,5kph (14mph). Theoretical calculations for 250W continuous power (ignoring RPM aspect) show that the bike should reach the speed of 36,5kph (22,7mph). This speed represents 298RPM. The rider may start pedaling at 22,5kph and try to attain 36,5kph, but the motor works just as a freewheel at any speed above 195RPM (22,5kph). What power does the bike require to maintain the speed of 22,5kph (14mph)? The simulator shows that this speed requires just ~80W. Other simulator confirms this calculation (85W). What does it mean? I understand that the bike is undergeared (in car terminology). It delivers 250W at 195RPM. At this wheel size 195RPM = 22,5kph (14mph). On the other hand 22,5kph (195RPM) requires only 80W. Maximum motor power (250W) in good conditions (quality flat road, no face wind, etc) would effectively be used at 300RPM. As we have no gears and we loose the opportunity to use this motor power effectively. Are these calculations correct? Any mistake in reasoning? If the above is correct – I believe it confirms the thesis that electric ride in order to be energy effcient requires gears. One gear (eg. motor hub) means that the motor drives the bike using the gear designed for average conditions – no extra climbing ability and no extra speed (like the 3rd gear in the car).

Do I understand correctly your thesis? You say that driving through gears on e-bikes does not give extra efficiency in standard British (EU) conditions. You must obey a 250W power limit and a 15mph speed limit. A standard motor hub is sufficient and is simpler to built and easier to ride. I think that – as to the rule - chain drive systems (or generally – gears using systems) offer more efficiency. Flyer owners report rider assisted speed ~25mph (Flyer max power 200W). Various tests of bikes equipped with Cyclone or eLation kits show that these bikes can go really fast (let’s ignore now whether it is rational to have a bike going 30-40mph): Cyclone, eLation. Motor hubs are more popular worldwide. US cyclists like e-bikes going ~30mph and more. Usually they use direct drive motor hubs (700-1500W continuous power). Such bikes are fast but they need strong and heavy motors (usually direct drive hubs) and heavy batteries. Similar max speed can probably be attained with a chain drive motor twice smaller. I must obey only max power limit (250W). Sometimes I may need to go ~25mph on a public road. Will a 250W motor hub allow me to attain such pedaling assisted speed? I doubt it. A properly geared chain drive system probably will go so fast (YouTube - Cyclone Kit Australian Test). In my opinion Americans like motor hubs since they like heavy and energy inefficient bikes (just like cars). Europeans like motor hubs since they cannot use extra efficiency offered by chain drive systems (speed limit on power assistance). Moreover, hub motors are simpler to build/install in bikes (cheaper!) and simpler to use. But if you need a climb-able and fast lightweight e-bike – the best choice is a chain drive system.

Flyer F in the market Ladies and Gentlemen, I am trying to find an e-bike for me. Today I found an interesting item at the auction portal - Flyer F. The seller of the bike is quite unaware of the bike previous life which must have been exciting. The key was lost and the lock was replaced. As a result of these improvements the motor does not work. The world Flyer F population is limited so I may luckily contact the previous user. Where the bike comes from? What was its mileage? Any other damages? Boby

Thank you for explanations. I started to think about this DH after I fell in a big hole in the snow two weeks ago (standard hardtail bike). Faster you ride more often such things happen. As john pointed out it is the air not tires or suspension to consume power at high speeds. DH has a strong frame and other solid components (brakes!). This particular DH has a quasi-touring geometry – handlebar at the height of 115cm from the ground. Solid construction should make it safer at high speeds. flecc says that solution is moderate front suspension with a sprung seatpost and low rolling resistance medium width tyres. I still like 20” bikes because of their portability. Can separable Pashley Moulton with 20x1,5 Schwalbe Marathon tires meet this test? What do you think about this configuration: Endless-sphere.com • View topic - Miles' Project 1 [eMoulton] (I prefer chain drive system but the motor location is a perfect idea).

Catic It is produced by Chinese gentlemen (Electrical bicycle CATICGZ). I saw it for the first time at Australian eBay – so probably it was equipped with a 200W motor. The concept is smart – like a Flyer or Panasonic. In my opinion chain drive is most effective. You may climb and ride fast at proper gears. I wonder how it works.

energy efficient bike vs. bumpy roads resistant bike Flecc – I am impressed with your analysis. You say that – if you optimize efficiency – the bike suspension is harmful. This conclusion is not popular since suspended bikes look cool, cost more and for these reasons are more popular. No suspension bikes are more effective than suspended ones. But suspension can be useful on bumpy roads and makes the bike comfortable. So we come to the efficiency – comfort (or resistance) dilemma. What I miss is the quantification. If you go though numbers you may reach truly useful conclusions. Like Alex Moulton – he introduced small 20” wheels and overcompensated increased rolling resistance with high pressure tires and suspended wheels. BTW – the Moulton movie (alex moulton — Google Video) pictures your thesis that front fork consumes rider’s effort (6:50). This problem has practical implications. I am looking for a bike to make it electric (probably eLation or Cyclone kit). It should be energy efficient and bumpy roads resistant. Probably a road bike is not a good idea – it is efficient but may be too delicate and uncomfortable. Is a vertical downhill bike a solution? Probably not. Bumpy roads resistant but energy inefficient. Front and rear suspension and heavy 26x2.30 off-road tires make it hard to ride. Would a vertical downhill bike equipped with 120psi 26x1 slick tires become energy efficient? If yes – to what extend? (please do not tell me about overweight, I should reduce my weight first). Downhill huge suspension travel may be useless in the e-bike – any other idea to merge comfort (and bumpy roads resistance) with energy efficiency? Is a classical Moulton a good compromise (www.foldingbikes.co.uk - Moulton TSR)? Can we learn the estimated rolling resistance of the road bike and heavy full suspension downhill with off-road tires and the same downhill bike with slick tires? I wonder what makes a mountain bike so slow. Mainly tires or mainly suspension or both? Another aspect is the bike stability at high speed. I just learned about a Cyclone 1000W kit (max speed 70kph in a folder). Interesting option. I may have an opportunity to register the bike as an experimental vehicle so do not have to care much of 250W limit. On the other hand I will need a range of at least 20km and do not want to waste the energy in tires or suspension. I am not sure whether should I trust a standard road frame (and brakes) at 50kph. Downhill frame (and brakes) looks more reliable (I cannot send a picture from my local disc, I mean the third bike (rather untypical geometry for a DH): :: cycletool :: high performance bikes ::

TGA electrobike picture is great. Everything was already invented years ago.

Gentlemen, My link for VisforVoltage did not work for any mysterious reason. So I copied the eLation inventor’s letter below. This is the message of Sat, 05/12/2007: Hi Guys, Sorry, long time no see. Been busy on next version of eLation and suppose I have been a bit of a "rock spider", watching but not inputing to forum. New designs and updates are moving smoothly and feedback from buyers has be awesome. Wrapped in "free design" concept but have to buy in here and say 'come on'. Had few people now let me know of this mob bike-elektro-antrieb.ch elektrofahrzeuge e-mountainbike elektroantrieb Kona ebike evelo ecycle elektrovelo elektrofahrrad Mountainbike Mountain Bike Rider Freerider Helio elektrozweirad ebikeenergybike e-velo ebike e-cycle electro bicycle e-scooter e and have also contacted them myself stating the "obvious". Conviently they "released" their product 1 month after we appeared on television. They also appear to have prbolems understanding English (yeah right). Bottom line is, makes you wonder? Since I have contacted them they have 'done the right thing' and advised Aussies to contact me (no where else), but it is hardly fair they are getting recogntion on a reputable site such as Visforvoltage. I am all for evoltuion but is copying really valid. I spent a LOT of dollars creating the finer points of the eLation. I have patented and registered the design. Can I DEFEND it? NO of course not I do not have the money to waste. I am small time and unless guys like you help defend designs (yours and mine) we will all be chewed up. I want to survive as a business, but I also want to support this vital industry. If you let the clones get credibility and will never get there. I will leave it to you good people to decide if I have a case. Either way i will continue to design and operate in the background for the betterment of the industry (and truthfullly my business too). New mount, crank system and motor sizes coming soon. Best to all, Woody alland@elationebikes.com.au www.elationeebikes.com.au I think that the question of Cyclone or eLation patents is beyond consumers’ interest. In fact there can be many patents for various versions of the same idea. From my point of view Cyclone kit produces to large additional chain rolling resistance (in one-chain-version) and its chainring looks dramatically cheap. Moreover, the replacement of my original 52T chainring with a 44T Cyclone one would make the bike undergeared (which is irrational if you add electric assistance to ride faster). eLation looks better made (but Allan says is not for foldings). Both Cyclone and eLation have two freewheels. Next week I will probably see something similar to eLation. General description - Bimoto - power assist bicycles. The inventor says it works better than eLation since both freewheels are in crank (assuming that I understood him). If you ride without the motor assistance the motor chain does not move (contrary to eLation version – as he pointed out – where both chains move in similar situation). He invented the drive (and patented it) for Honda engines and now works on adaptation of his drive to electric motors. Motor will be placed just in the front of the crank - like in eLation or Cyclone (some versions).

For this reason Cyclone kit can be an inefficient assistant for a mountain bike. Cyclone kit has just 8 (max) gears. On the other hand – you may experiment with a complex internal gear hub. Dave – you are right. eLation and Bike Elektro Antrieb are very similar to Cyclone kit. But Cyclone did not patent it (probably it would not be possible). Cyclone is just widely known. eLation is better made (esp. its chainring does not look as found in a waste container) and does not limit the number of gears, the Swiss one is very similar to eLation (eLation owner said it was just a rude copy of patented eLation: http://visforvoltage.org/forum/bicycles-and-pedelecs/1379). I am sure that there are more kits based on this idea – we just do not know about them. Most of them are not commercialized in the Western World. I read market forecasts saying that the expected sales of e-bikes in China in 2008 was 16-20 million and the sales of e-bikes in Europe in 2007 was 250k. The size of European market is max 1.5% of the Far East one. After reading about it I realized that Chinese manufacturers could ignore European customers in the B2C sector. There is no money for them here (they are not aware of prices for their stuff here but in terms of quantity they are right). Sometimes I have an impression that we face the primary stage of the LEV industry development – similar to the development stage of car industry 100 years ago. 100 years ago drivers were buying petrol in pharmacies. In order to have a car you bought the motor and frame and a body separately (like electric kit now). We discuss many chain drive systems, please look at it: http://www.caticgz.com/ProTemplate2.php?fdSortid=AAAOAAAA I find it more elegant that everything the Western producer could offer (it still looks heavy – but it is their beginning). Of course – it is not a kit. It requires a special frame design. In order to have a car you do not buy a BMW motor+suspension and Alfa Romeo body. It would be ridiculous. The same would probably quickly happen in the e-bike sector.

I understand your point. Cyclone kit is underdeveloped. Look at eLation or Bike-Elektro-Antrieb. These systems are adaptable to front gears and should work effectively in mountain bikes (pictures from producers’ web sites).

Cyclone test ride Cyclone kit is an interesting option. The key question is what do you expect from your e-bike. Look at the Cyclone home page (Electric bicycle DIY kits kit NuVinci Electric Scooter e-bike Electric bicycle DIY kits kit NuVinci Electric Scooter e-bike Electric bicycle DIY kits kit NuVinci Electric Scooter e-bike Electric bicycle DIY kits kit NuVinci Electric Scooter e-bike El) – these bikes go upstairs! This trick may not be attainable for motor hubs because of their lower torque or may require stronger and heavier motors. I tested Dahon with Cyclone kit (360W, 24V). Weight ~22kg, still foldable. Cyclone kit uses standard chain and existing gears (only rear gears – this kit accepts only one chainring). You may change gears - like in a standard bike, motorcycle or a car with manual gearbox. It gives a lot of fun or is onerous – depending on personal preferences (just like in cars). Cyclone motor (at the 1st or 2nd gear car equivalent) can effectively help climbing AND offers good acceleration. It can also be fast at other gears (in motor hub systems you probably may have either climbing ability OR fast riding). Dahon Cyclone was equipped with off-road tires. Maximum motor speed ~30 km/h, with rider’s assistance ~35 km/h. The owner declares the range of ~18km (just motor working, maximum speed, no stops). Cyclone motor is not loud but you can hear it working. Actually it is a chain to produce noise, not the motor. Pedals are not symmetrical, Cyclone delivers longer spindle, the left pedal is moved ~30mm away in order to give some space for the motor. This change is not onerous – at least during short rides. One important disadvantage of Cyclone system is the increase of the chain rolling resistance. I had an impression that the effort I made to ride fast results in ~25 km/h in my bike (also Dahon) and only in ~16 km/h in Dahon Cyclone (no electricity). Therefore using the bike without electric assistance may be a problem. Bigger chain rolling resistance may be my impression only. But it can be measured with ease. If my diagnosis is correct – it will mean that the Cyclone kit is underdeveloped. Other electric kit makers offer chain drive systems which probably do not increase the chain rolling resistance – eg. eLation ([/url]) or Epac (http://www.epacpower.com.au/Epac_Home.html).

I am also looking for a rear geared hub motor. Also BMC produces one, but heavier, ~4kg. BMC motor seems to be stronger, even 600W permanent power at 48V: Hi-Power Cycles: High Power Electric Bikes, MTB's, ATV's, Go carts : E-Bike Kits and E-Bike Conversions The strange thing with Bafang is that they declare max power 250W and some distributors 750W (peak or permanent?): Holmes Hobbies LLC :: Electric Cycle :: Bafang Geared Brushless Rear Hub Motor Is it only the overvoltage result? I was informed that another producer will offer rear hub motors: Fusin Welcome to Fusin Motorsports | fusinmotors.com. Now they only have front hub motors, rear motors are expected in spring 2009.

I tested Dahon with Cyclone kit (360W, 24V). Weight ~22kg, still foldable. Cyclone kit uses standard chain and existing gears (only rear gears – this kit accepts only one chainring). You may change gears - like in a standard bike, motorcycle or a car with manual gearbox. It gives a lot of fun or is onerous – depending on personal preferences (just like in cars). Gearbox in a bike has another virtue which may be of crucial importance for some users. Motor hub has only one gear (if geared) or has no gears (direct drive). Usually it can go fast but is not strong or even completely weak at low speeds. Cyclone motor (at the 1st or 2nd gear car equivalent) can effectively help climbing and offers good acceleration. Cyclone home page shows bikes climbing upstairs (http://cyclone-tw.com). This trick may not be attainable for motor hubs because of their lower torque or may require stronger and heavier motors. Dahon Cyclone was equipped with off-road tires. Maximum motor speed ~30 km/h, with rider’s assistance ~35 km/h. The owner declares the range of ~18km (just electric, maximum speed, no stops). Cyclone motor is not loud but you can hear it working. Actually it is a chain to produce noise, not the motor. Pedals are not symmetrical, Cyclone delivers longer spindle, the left pedal is moved ~3cm away in order to give some space for the motor. This change is not onerous – at least during short rides. One important disadvantage of Cyclone system is the increase of the chain rolling resistance. I had an impression that the effort I make to go fast results in ~25 km/h in my bike and only in ~16 km/h in Dahon Cyclone (no electricity). Therefore using the bike without electric assistance may be a problem. Bigger chain rolling resistance may be my impression only. But it can be measured with ease. If my diagnosis is correct – it will mean that the Cyclone kit is underdeveloped. Other electric kit makers offer chain drive systems which probably do not increase the chain rolling resistance – eg. eLation (eLation eBikes) or Epac (http://www.epacpower.com.au/Epac_Home.html). The problem with eLation or Epac is their adoption for folding bikes.

Stevie – please look at Cyclone home web page (http://cyclone-tw.com/). Movies show bike going without human intervention and riders’ legs do not move. Cyclone kit includes additional freewheel in the spindle. I tested Dahon Cyclone 360W, 24V, ~22kg today (pictures at the bottom of the page: http://www.bimoto.pl/oferta-specjalna-silnik-do-roweru.htm). Movies at Cyclone page show one important Cyclone kit virtue – it can offer huge torque. Some of these bikes go upstairs! Can this trick be performed by a motor hub bike? Cyclone motor (at the 1st or 2nd gear car equivalent) can effectively help climbing and offers good acceleration. On the other hand – Cyclone kit does not accept front gears (only one chainring). So number of gears in a mountain bike is reduced. Dahon Cyclone was equipped with off-road tires. Maximum motor speed ~30 km/h, with rider’s assistance ~35 km/h. The owner declares the range of ~18km (just electric, maximum speed, no stops). Cyclone motor is not loud but you can hear it working – rather chain not the motor itself. Pedals are not symmetrical, Cyclone delivers longer spindle, the left pedal is moved ~3cm away in order to give some space for the motor. This change is not onerous – at least for short rides. One important disadvantage of Cyclone system is the increase of the chain rolling resistance. I had an impression that the effort I made to go fast resulted in ~25 km/h in my bike and only in ~16 km/h in Dahon Cyclone (no electricity). Therefore using the bike without electric assistance may be a problem. Bigger chain rolling resistance may be my impression only. But it can be measured with ease. If my diagnosis is correct – it will mean that the Cyclone kit is underdeveloped as compared to eLation (eLation eBikes) or Epac (http://www.epacpower.com.au/Epac_Home.html). Can you recommend any rear geared hub motor for 20” wheel (28 spokes)?

In a Cyclone system you may rely just on a motor without rider’s assistance – like in any hub system (I did it). Cyclone is widely known but other – even more “elegant” Cyclone-like systems are available. eLation and Epac belong to the Cyclone-like group (eLation eBikes, http://www.epacpower.com.au). They don’t use the standard chain (like Cyclone does), but have separate chainrings and chains. The rider and the motor may have different gearing requirements – this can be compensated in Epac and in eLation by the change of chainrings size for the rider and the motor. I am considering chaindrive system for my foldable and eLation seems to be most developed. The analysis I read said that Cyclone-like systems offer better acceleration and climbing but have lower maximum speed than hub systems. What is your opinion in this area. Did anyone compare chaindrive and hub systems?

Steve - do you use Cyclone system? Did you compare it to motor hubs (acceleration, climbing)? I was teached that electric motors generally do not need gears. And neither my vacuum cleaned nor a washing machine has gears. I mean I do not know whether using gears is really such a Cyclone kit advantage. Any comparison of motor hubs to Cyclone system would help. I know that direct drive hub motors accelerate slowly. This is the result of small torque. But geared hub motors often have big torque - do they accelerate faster? Maybe geared hubs performance is similar to Cyclone kit performance. Hub systems are simpler. Cyclone system affects rolling resistance when man-powered. It is my concern. Cheers Bob

When installing Cyclone kit you must add several rings to the chain (not many-since the chainring is smaller). I consider Cyclone kit for my Dahon mainly becasue of its weight (motor ~2kg) and acceleration. I am not afraid of the chaindrive noise. I saw Dahon/Cyclone and it was silent. Is Cyclone chaindrive system really stronger than hub systems (even geared)?

I saw Dahon with Cyclone kit. It works. Pictures to be delivered probably on Monday. I already had a short ride. It works silent, has a free wheel. Potential problem may be the replacement of the original chainring (in Dahon usually 52T) with a chainring delivered by Cyclone (44T). This change may make the bike undergeared. Cyclone kit must work in folding bikes. Even kit installing process is shown on a folding Giant: Electric bicycle DIY kits kit e-bike DIY kits kit Electric bicycle DIY kits kit e-bike DIY kits kit Electric bicycle DIY kits kit e-bike DIY kits kit Bob