TomNO

Just wanted to give an update, maybe it will be helpful to somebody else in similar situation. I received my old bike back from the workshop. They replaced the whole motor (the good ol' E6000). I tested it on my usual route the next day, and I must say that it seems to be a bit quieter, but still quite loud. I don't know, there are so few E6000's on the roads over here that it's hard to compare. Maybe that's just how they are, or maybe I'm overloading it, considering the amount of steep hills, my weight, weight of the bike etc. I don't know. But none of the CX's or PW's I have met on my route have made so much noise. Anyway, I finally got to test the new Bosch Active Line Plus motor, on a Cube Touring Hybrid One. Here are my thoughts: Pros: The Active Plus is almost dead silent, much quieter than my E6000. Most of the time I couldn't hear it at all. Very nice. The assistance felt very smooth and natural, compared to the E6000, which has a more noticable "push". It just felt a bit more natural, although E6000 may be a bit more fun to ride. Also, the assistance "faded out" smoothly between 26 and 27 km/h, so the cutoff was not as noticable as on the E6000. The chain moves if you pedal backwards, which is a nice feature which makes cleaning/oiling chain easier. Cons: Lacks power on steep hills or/and high cadence. On flats and small hills, there was no problem, there was plenty of assistance/torque, however, I then took it up a long, steeper hill (sorry, unknown grade), and it felt underpowered, at least compared to my E6000. I managed to keep the speed steady at 16-17km/h, confirmed by GPS. However, I drove up the same hill with my E6000 just 20 minuters earlier, and was able to keep steady 23-24km/h. I don't know if it was because of too high cadence, which was a bit over 100rpm, because I know this motor only supports up to 105rpm, so maybe it provides significantly less torque at the high end of the range. It would be nice if the manufacturers published torque curves for their motors... The Active Line Plus is big and heavy. This is supposed to be new generation motor, but it's larger and approx half a kilo heavier than E6100, E7000 and E8000. Also, in my opinion, it's ugly, but I must admit that Cube have done a great job integrating this motor in their bikes. Overall, I am disappointed with the Active Line Plus motor. I really wanted to like it, as it's so quiet and smooth, and there was a good deal on the Cube, but it just feels like a downgrade (power wise) compared to my old E6000. So I guess I will have to stick with Shimano and keep looking for deals on E8000, or wait till E6100 and E7000 hit the market.

Thanks, very helpful! I just found it on sale at a local dealer for about 2550 EUR, which is still kind of high, but I might just pull the trigger on it. Haven't decided yet. Of course it's nice that it comes with factory mounted lights and mudguards, but, actually, I'm sceptic about the mudguards, as the rear one on my previous bike broke in the middle after about 2 years, just happened while riding, guess because of the stress from bumps etc. It was also a factory mounted mudguard, made by SKS, but it was some specialized/OEM model which you couldn't buy as a consumer, and you couldn't just mount any aftermarket mudguard as there was a special channel in it for the cables that go to the battery (mounted in the rack) and rear light, and the mounts were tricky too I remember. It also looked like a bit of a mess to replace even if I managed to get ahold of one. In that case, I would have preferred to have just some inexpensive aftermarket mudguards that you can replace easily yourself when they break, but in this case I had to deliver it to the dealer and make them take in on warranty, which is a mess and takes time, which is not good when you use the bike every day for commuting. But the lights were realy nice, just press a button and that's it, no charging or replacing batteries etc. Rack I don't use anyway. So if I could save "100 bucks" on not having factory mounted mudguards/rack/lights, I probably would take that option. I'm in exactly the same situation as you were - I used to commute with a regular bike before switching to e-bike, and I want it to be as close to the real deal as possible. I just don't believe the CX offers this, although I have not tried it myself. Thanks for the tip on seat suspension post, I actually have not seen one in real life, or even heard of one before, but I did suspect something like this exists, but have never looked into it. I might just add one to my next bike, as the roads are very uneven/bumpy over here. Nice pic, btw. I wish I had such views on my commute.

And if you get your DU replaced within the 5 years, you get brand new 5 year warranty on the new unit. It's the law. It's a tough market for the manufacturers/distributors/dealers here.

I must add though, that we have very strict consumer protection laws here, and that products that are meant to last significantly longer than 2 years, are covered by warranty for 5 years, according to law. This definitely applies to drive units on e-bikes, so I believe dealers/distributors bake this in the price a bit (I just assume). If you're a sports store that imports e-bikes from abroad (there are brands that have no official dealers/importers in this country), and you sell the bike to a consumer, and in 3-4 years the drive unit fails, you will have to cover the repair. So I think Norway can be a bit tough market for the manufacturers. For example, I know Bosch give 2 year warranty on their motors (at least I have heard), but if you sell it in Norway and have to cover it for 5 years, you probably will raise the prise on the unit, which means higher price for the consumer. However, this is not always true, and some products cost about the same as in other European countries, and if not, you just have to wait for deals, and you may end up getting it cheaper than in other countries, with a 5 year warranty. I know this very well, as I work in consumer electronics.

Yes, I see you can get it for that in the UK now. Most things here are more expensive than in rest of Europe. It's a small bike store that is selling it, claiming that it's a "sales" price. The small shops here usually don't have any good deals. Luckily, the big sports store chains here often have some really good campaigns, but the problem is that they practically have no E8000 bikes in their sortiment. And the ones they have are usually some really expensive MTBs, like full suspension that usually cost like 4000+ EUR, so even if a deal popped up, it wouldn't be within my budget anyay. But you can get some simple MTBs with E8000 here for like 2300GBP, but I still can't justify spending that when you can get Bosch CX for like 1650 GBP now. There was a good discount on a E8000 bike here recently, called White XC-E PRO 275. White is a brand owned by the largest sports store chain in Norway, called XXL. They also have stores in Sweden, Denmark, Finland and Austria. The bike looked ok, not fan of the colour though, however, for about 1550 GBP I would have bought it without hesitation, if they had my size in stock.. :-(

Yeah, saw Focus Bold 2 yesterday, a cool bike, but expensive here. They have it on "sale" now for about 2750 GBP, both 27,5 and 29" :-(

Thanks. Sure, I wouldn't mind keeping stable 25km/h up steep hills as well I have some long hills which I can't manage to climb at over 20km/h with the old E6000, hopefully with a more powerful unit like the E8000 I could keep steady 25km/h. But it would be really nice if it actually went up to 27km/h (which apparently Bosch does, and is within the legal +/-10% range). I saw that you can "hack" the cutoff speed on E8000 by using software called eMax, so you don't have to use any hardware at all, but you can't use the latest firmware on the bike then. It would be nice to raise the cutoff limit by a few km/h, but the software costs 150 EUR... But I really like the idea of being able to connect to the unit using bluetooth to upgrade firmware on all components, to adjust the assist levels etc. It sounds like a great feature to have.

Thanks. Yeah, I am not considering Yamaha at all now. S-pedelecs in this country are considered electrical mopeds, and therefore are not allowed on the sidewalks, cycling paths etc. You also have to have them insured etc. So it's out of the question. I am not sure if Stromer also make regular pedelecs, but at least here, the only Stromer e-bikes I have seen/can find in stores have been s-pedelecs. Also, most of the e-bikes with hub drives I have seen here are either cheap/bad quality bikes, or illegal/overpowered (or both). I haven't looked into hub drives that much, and don't know if there are high quality hub drives out there that can compete with a good mid drive (and be legal 250W/25km/h), but you have to understand that this is a small country with very limited choice in products.

Thanks. I have seen this page, I probably have seen them all now, having been researching this now every evening for a week. It's true that it's hard to find more info on the new Active Plus, but I'm leaning more towards E8000 now anyway. The only problem is that the E8000 is not nearly as common as the CX (here at least), so it's hard to find a bike with E8000 at a decent price. I actually searched for e-bikes with E8000 yesterday, and I found the Espresso Steps 600 EQ 2018, and thought it was a really nice bike. You usually see the E8000 only on MTBs, but the Espresso 600 EQ is an exception, and it just looks like a really nice bike. The problem is the price, it costs like 3200 EUR here. It's not the price itself that's the problem, I don't mind investing in a good bicycle I will use for years instead of my car, the problem is the difference in price between E8000 and CX. You can get a bike with CX for under 2000 EUR now, so spending over 1000EUR just for the E8000 seems foolish. :-( I looked at some local e-bike reviews, and there was the Cube Cross Hybrid Pro with CX which I considered, and it got one of the lowest scores in the test, it actually had the second worst score. The biggest minus for this bike was, according to the review, the loss of pedal force, which they measured (not sure exactly how) to 32%, which they meant made the bicycle hard to pedal without assist. I thought maybe that's specific to that particular bicycle, but this was the only bicycle with CX motor on that test (7 other bikes were tested), and it had the highest loss of pedal force in the whole test. The best in the whole test, and with least loss of pedal force, was the Haibike Sduro Trekking 6.0 with PW, it scored 21%. So I am leaning more and more towards the E8000, but, unfortunately, the E8000 is just not that common here. :-(

Nefarious, can you confirm that your E8000 cuts off sharply at exactly 25km/h mark? After looking at the eMTB units, it seems that E8000 might indeed the best choice for me, since it has a regular chainring, lots of torque, lighter and smaller than CX, user upgradable firmware, and I saw you can even tune the assist levels through E-Tube. But I read in several reviews that it cuts off the speed very suddenlty at 25km/h, when CX, for example, does it smoothly after 26km/h, and cuts off only at 27km/h. Is this how your unit operates as well? This hasn't been improved with firmware upgrades?

I'm not really worried about the range that much. It's interesting that Cube has put the Active Plus on a MTB bike, so initially I thought this motor can perform. Yesterday I went through some forums again, and saw a guy claim that the Active Plus climbs worse than E6000 (apparently he had tested both), which is so disappointing.

Yes, however, the reviews I have read show that most of its power still lies in the lower rpm range, and the assist level at high rpm is not that impressive. So maybe they pushed the limit a bit, but it still seems that the torque drops significantly past 90 rpm.

I assume Shimano would say the same thing about the E6000, which has served me well. I believe I could live with Active Plus, but what I'm worried about is whether or not it's a downgrade from E6000 (purely power wise). I don't have any traffic lights on the way to work, so there aren't many stop-start situations, so I can live without the boost from standstill feature. I just wish they made the Active Plus 60nm, and the regular Active 50nm. The upcoming E6100 is lighter, more compact and more powerful than Active Plus. It would be nice to have something in the middle between 50nm and 70-75nm from other brands too.

I used to use Normal a lot more before, but then got a bit lazy and switched to High, as it's just about as loud anyway, it's easier to maintain speed on hills and I still get a good workout, so why not. E6100 is 60nm, so is E7000. But these are upcoming units, and I don't want to wait that long, so from the current units, it's either 50nm or 70-75nm. For Bosch, I would consider one of these bikes: Cube Acid Hybrid Allroad One 400 2018 (Active Plus) or Cube Cross Hybrid Pro 400 2018 (CX) The CX is only about 100GBP more. but I'm worried about the small, geared chainring, and the reliability of the CX. I have heard they have, or at least used to have, problems with bearings and what not. Also, I pedal without assist quite a lot, and, as I understand, CX is one of the worst units to pedal without assist. So I have been a bit sceptic about the CX, although it appears to be the "industry standard".

I try to keep steady 90 rpm, and do some intervals at 110rpm. Maybe not something you would call all that high in the cycling world, but it's definitely higher than most folks on e-bikes I see on the roads here do. I have looked at some torque charts, and it seems that Yamaha is the worst for this cadence range, so I'm not considering them.

Maybe I just need more torque so that the motor doesn't have to work at 100% all the time, which would in turn improve the noise? Maybe 50nm for that weight and topography is not optimal? I clearly have too little experience with these things, this is the only e-bike I have ever used. I guess it's a bit different in most parts of the UK, but here where I live, I have constant hills as soon as I leave my house, there are practically no flats between my house and my workplace, it's constant up- and downhills.

Thanks for the offer, much appreciated, but I live in Oslo area, and am practically never in Halden area. Really looking forward to them replacing the defective motor, just to see if it improves noise. But I still want a new bike, and am still hesitant to buy a new bike with the same system due to the reasons I mentioned in the beginning - it's an old system, firmware can't be upgraded without special equipment etc. Also, it seems silly to invest in it when E6100 is just around the corner, so, if I were to stick with Shimano, maybe E8000 would make more sense, which is at least a an upgrade over E6000, but I'm just too worried about the noise. It's strange, since the CXs that have passed me are usually much quieter than my STEPS. I thought that maybe I was overloading the little STEPS, I weigh exactly 100kg, with the bike, gear, backpack etc it's about 125-130kg load on the motor. I never use the Eco mode, as it does not provide enough assistance on the hills which there are a lot of on the road I take, I usually use High, however, I have tried using Normal many times, just to see if it improves noise, and there is almost no difference. First I thought that maybe this was normal, especially when going uphill, but then when PWs or CXs slowly overtake me on a steep hill where I hardly can keep the speed at 20km/h, they seem so quiet (but I do actually hear them). And when people say that CXs is supposed to be louder than STEPS E6000, I just can't believe it.

I have been really curious about how E8000 performs and sounds, and how similar in general it is to E6000. But as I understand, it's a bit louder, similar to CX, which probably is considered normal considering it's a high torque unit, but it's hard to accept it when you actually don't need that much torque. Have you used other motors that you can compare the noise of your E8000 to? Unfortunately, where I live, there are no proper bicycle or sports stores nearby, and the only nearby sports stores that sell e-bikes are located inside shopping malls, so you can't really try out any of the bikes there. And I haven't really seen that many E8000s on the roads I usually drive, it's mostly CX's (esp Haibikes).

I have seen this review, and some others. I have been digging for info on the new Active Plus motor for days now, even on German forums. It seems that almost everybody who has tried it, have been very satisfied with it, but what I'm really curious about is how it compares to my old E6000. When I have used E6000 for years, and then read somewhere (I think one of the German pedelec forums) that the new Active Plus feels a bit less powerful than the old E6000, I get a bit sceptic. I also read that it does not assist as much when you just start to pedal, like at traffic lights, which is a minus. Last thing I want is a downgrade from my old E6000. :-)

Hmm. Actually, there is still warranty on the bicycle/motor, and I am delivering it to the dealer this weekend, but I have decided to buy a new bicycle anyway, since I want a lighter, better looking frame, frame mounted battery (have it in the back now), and a suspension fork. Also, the battery seems to have aged so I don't get the same range as I used to, so I thought I would just sell the bike if it gets fixed on warranty, and put the money towards something new. I have looked for videos of STEPS in action to try to judge if they all are this noisy, but it's hard to find clean videos of them in action. This is a good one though: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZfPm5ap1Do My STEPS sounded exactly like this in real life, only louder than it appears in the video. I tried once to record the noise with my phone, but it never sounded nearly as loud in the videos as in real life. I assume your brother compared it to one of the old Active Line motors? Because I have read that the new generation is quieter. Also, could it be that STEPS has been revised and your brother has a newer version? Because mine is from 2015, or maybe even 2014, maybe Shimano improved the E6000 at some point?

Hello, I am looking for a new electrical bike, since the motor on my old one recently died. It had the E6000 Shimano STEPS motor, but I'm hesitant to buy a new bike with the same motor for several reasons - it's and old design, you can't upgrade software without a special (and expensive) interface box, and the worst thing I hate about the E6000 is the noise. I'm surprised every time I read on forums or reviews how quiet the Steps E6000 is, or, as they usually describe it, "nearly silent" or something like that. This is not my experience at all. I found it to be very loud at all loads since it was new, even when driving flat, but when going uphill, it got so loud I was embarrassed to pass anyone on the road, and pedestrians could hear me from far away and would turn around to look who's making that strange noise. I have never seen any other e-bike on the road that has been so loud. I am not sure if they all are like that, or if my unit was bad, but I used it for about 3 years and it worked just fine, never had any problems with it. Anyway, I am looking for a new bike, and can't decide which motor/system I should choose. I live in Norway, where we generally have a very hilly topography. I ride the bike every day to and from work, about 10km each way, and have several quite steep hills on the way. I never ride off-road. I prefer high cadence with low load, my goal is not to make as little effort as possible, but to be able to maintain high, steady cadence and speed, even when going up hills. I see a lot of people driving Bosch CX in high gear/low cadence every day on my way to work, this is not what I want, I want it to be closer to a regular bicycle, but without dying of driving up these hills every day. I pass the 25km/h limit all the time, so it's important that it's easy (relatively) to pedal even when the motor is off. And talking about torque, the 50nm from my STEPS has been enough, but I wouldn't mind a bit more, but then you are looking at the eMTB motors which are an overkill for me (I believe). So, the options are: Bosch Performance Line CX - as I understand, these are not the best to pedal with motor off/past speed limit due to the design of the chainring. Also, I have heard that they are not the quietest, or the most reliable motors. And I guess 75nm is an overkill for me anyway. Bosch Active Line Plus - I like that it's a recent design/model, quiet (so they say) and is (on paper) about as powerful as STEPS E6000, however, I have heard that the STEPS E6000 feels a bit more powerful in real life. Has anyone driven both and can comment this? Is Active Line Plus and upgrade over E6000? STEPS E8000 - I have seen some videos with this motor, and it seemed kind of loud? And if I were to buy such a powerful motor, wouldn't it be better to just buy Bosch CX then? STEPS E6100 - upcoming model, 60nm sounds perfect, supposedly quieter than the E6000, new design etc, however, this model is not released yet, and I don't want to be without a bike till winter/spring when I assume new bikes with this motor will start appearing in stores. Brose - hard to get in Norway, expensive, so not really considering this one, unfortunately. Yamaha PW or PW-X - I have read that they are not good for high cadence riders. So I'm kind of leaning towards the Active Line Plus, and if anyone knows how it compares to E6000 in real life, I would love to hear their opinion. Any other tips/recommendations would be very much appreciated. Thanks, Tom