vaasa

Thanks Eddie, I saw from the other thread that you were looking for a new Panasonic unit for a member at German ebay. I guess it's me for whom you were looking. If it's the case, I really appreciate it

I'll try to take the chainguard off as suggested by Tillson and see if this is the issue. Although the rubbing/grinding/binding noise seems to be worse in the morning (with cold temperature) and gradually disappear during the day. This would indicate a grease/bearing problem (as the grease would distribute itself more evenly with use and warmer weather). On the other hand, it mostly becomes apparent when I'm applying a lot of force on the pedals (especially if slowing down the cadence during climbing), so the chain-wheel might indeed be in a different position in that case. I will use my bike again on Wednesday (I just came home from my commute of 46 km). I'll tell you how it goes. If I do not find any solution or the problem persists, I might post also on the German forum. Thanks for the advice!

I've bought it from the biggest retailer here in France. Yes the cost for the replacement unit is 500 EUR as you can see from the link]Panasonic Mittelmotor f. e-bikes / Pedelec 26 V 300 Watt f. Kalkhoff, Raleigh, | eBay. The link is for 300W motor but they also sold 250 W for the same price. Unfortunately, they do not seem to sell these units any more. It is a respectable Ebike shop in Germany who sold these units via ebay. I know a person here in Paris who replaced his motor in such a way.

Another possibility would be to write to Kalkhoff (derby cycles) directly and explain the issue. They might understand (especially as my bike is only a month out of warranty). I would even be willing to participate in the costs of the new motor unit (as opposed of bying a new 2000-2500 EUR bike) and they can have my old, still functioning unit for investigation. Some German retailer sold brandnew Panasonic 250W and 300W 26V units for around 500 EUR on ebay this spring. Unfortunately they do not seem to be available any more. As during this 2 years I've bought so many accessories for my bike (including a new 18Ah battery this winter), I'm really not willing to buy a new one for another 2 years. May be somebody from 50 Cycles can advise me who to contact from Kalkhoff (Derby Cycles) side?

Thank you flecc for a detailed advice. I'll see if I'm up to it. Maybe I'll try to ask somebody with knowledge in these matters to consult me while I'm doing it. The problem is that the bike is not falling to pieces... It would be difficult to prove that this rubbing noise is any issue at all (although from all the symptoms we now what it is). It might take another 6 months or even longer for the motor to stop working completely so that the braking down case could be established. Therefore I would have hard time asking to replace the motor under present conditions. My impression is that it also depends on the retailer. I've seen stories on this site how 50 cycles has even after warranty replaced the components. I'm not sure my retailer is up to it. My warranty ended in the beginning of September and I even tried to prolong it for 2 more years (like it is possible in Germany). But it was not possible in France. Hopefully I'll be able to regrease the motor and it will take care of the issue.. I might even think of detaching the motor and sending it to my father in law (who unfortunately lives in another EU country) who is a retired mechanic with an extensive experience with all sorts of motors (including electric). Meanwhile I can ride my wife's KTM (also fitted with a new 36V Panasonic unit) as she only uses it during the summer. Thanks again for all your advice and help!

Hello and greetings from sunny Paris to everyone It has been a long time I haven't written on the forum (although I've been reading with interest:)). I'm in a need of little of your help with my Pro connect (Panasonic crank drive 2010 version) From this spring the motor of my bike has developed a sound like something is rubbing against one another or against the walls inside of the unit. The rubbing sound ceases instantly when the power is cut off, but is especially heard under load and when reducing the cycling cadence. It has nothing to do with transmission, as I've changed all of it a couple of times since then. Why I also think it is the motor problem, is because I read in some thread where Flecc explained that if grease is lacking on the nailon wheel then one of the indications is that if the bike is not used for some time, the problem might get worse before the grease is more evenly distributed when riding again. Moreover, with warmer whether, the problem should lessen (as it has a direct effect on grease distribution). Well, this is exactly what I'm experiencing as the rubbing almost disappeared during warm July and August days. But now, with chilling mornings, it has become back wit a vengeance and is appearently getting worse (and is especially strong if I haven't used the bike for a week or so). I've done around 10000-12000 km with my bike in all wheather (even in winter). I've used it in normal and high mode most of the time and more intensively than the average user as I have 41 teeth chain wheel, 11 teeth motor sprocket and 11-28 cassette installed on my bike which gives a max speed of 35-36 km/h. I really don't want to break down the motor as I'm now out of the 2 year warranty. Therefore, I would like to know how complicated it is to open the motor and repair the problem? Although having owned my bike for more than 2 years I'm now doing all the repair work myself, I'm not really a hands-on person by profession So I don't know if I'm capable of greasing the nylon wheel (if this is really the issue) without breaking or messing something up:( Therore I would like to ask your advice on the subject how to proceed. Thanks and have a nice and sunny Sunday Vaasa

Thank you for all your suggestions. I'll check, clean and oil the transmission of my bike this week end to see if that helps. I'll let you know if anything changes. I think I can't run the motor without the chain though, because I do not have a throttle (I have a C pedelec, the motor of which only runs when the pedals are pushed with some force) Thus, I do not see how I can activate the motor without the chain. To respond to some of your questions: It happens every 3-4 chain-wheel turn and the pedals do not seem to be in the same position each time; I'm not sure where it comes from, although the regularity of the noise (like clockwork - every 3-4 turns) seems not to support the loose bolts of the motor as a likely cause. I share the opinions of flecc, d8veh etc; that the transmission seems to be the most likely cause because of the regularity of the noise. However, the oiling and the change of chain did not seem to make the noise emitted by the nemesis' pro connect to go away. I'll see how it goes for me...

Nemesis could not have said it better. I have exactly the same issue. Two of us having this very particular squeak (appears only when motor is turned on, disappears when turned off, does not start before 2-3 miles before motor is warmed, emitted every 3-4 pedal revolutions) seems to corroborate quite strongly common origin to the problem

I haven't yet had the time to check my transmission. However there is one curious fact with this squeaking noise that is worth mentioning. The noise does not start right away. It only starts after 2-3 miles. It's as if it is related to the warming of the motor because when bike is left idle for only a small amount of time (and especially inside where it is warmer), then the squeaking does not disappear. It only disappears for the first couple of miles after the bike is left idle for a longer time. I still somehow hope this noise is transmission related but I have some doubts because I've changed chains many times without any problem. And this new chain worked fine for the first 200 miles. And from my biking experience, I've never had such a squeaking noise coming from transmission.

I'm using special Shimano chain rivets to connect the chain. But as the the chain has to be joined in two places (normal chain is not long enough) there still remains a possibility of rough link/connection. Though, the fact that the squeaking only appears when pedaling with the assistance still seems a bit strange.

Thanx Flecc for a comprehensive explanation how the system works! Considering your points, I think it should be then either transmission or the the loose bolt issue. I tend to think it is more transmission related because the noise is regular like clockwork - every 3-4 pedal revolution. I'll try to check all the things you said and see if it will solve the problem. Maybe one link is a bit stiff. However, as it only becomes evident when the motor is switched on, I would think that the motor sprocket is somehow involved in the squeaking. Still, nothing is felt in the pedals and the transmission is smooth (not comparable with the roughness or rattling problem discussed extensively in the forum.) The noise does not seem depend much on the power applied. Although I do get the impression that the squeaking is more pronounced uphill. But this can be due to the fact that I'm going slower and the wind blowing through my ears also slows down letting me to hear it better (it is not audible in traffic for example) Concerning the motor bolts, is a normal screw driver enough to loosen or tighten them? Having seen the bolts, I tend to think that you would need much more massive and consequential tools to do it. Otherwise I might just damage the bolts (screw drive would slip) as the force applied would not be enough to tighten them. The bolts seem to be not easily accessible on new pro connects either; therefore sufficient torque and pressure would be difficult to apply.

Hey Hihihi, I was thinking the same thing, i.e. that the chain might cause it, e.g. a bad link. That would explain the squeaking in every 3-4 revolution as the chain goes full cycle. I've also recently changed the chain (as well as the rear cogs; and also turned the motor sprocket around); so maybe the connection link is causing the issue. However, it is only squeaking when the motor is switched on. That would work against the chain being the cause. Anyway, I'll lube and check the chain again this weekend to see if it will solve the issue

Hi, First of all I would like to say hello to all the forum members with whom I've communicated in the past and who have given very helpful advice. I'm again having some issues with my pro connect. So any help or advice would be greatly appreciated. My kalkhoff pro connect 9 G (2010) has started to emit a small intermittent squeaking noise recently. The squeaking only appears when the power is switched on and is present on all levels of assistance. My first thought was that maybe the bolts that attach the motor to the frame are becoming loose as it has been found to be the main reason that causes such a noise. However, on closer inspection, bolts appear to be firmly tightened. What's more, the squeaking resembles more to the noise that a pedal that needs lubrication would emit. And the noise is very regular - it is only emitted every 3-4 pedal revolutions, and only when the power is switched on. Moreover, it does not depend on the terrain - it is present on the smooth as well as on rocky surface (excluding thus the hypotheses of squeaking resulting from the motor movement). Thus, the only thing I could think of is some inner bearings inside the motor that would cause such a noise and that need lubrication. However, I have no idea whether it is possible to lubricate them and how to do it. My bike is still under warranty until next September. So I should probably not fiddle with the motor. Could you give me some advice what you would recommend me to do (ignore it, try to repair myself or bring the bike back to the dealer although he might dismiss this squeaking as it does not affect the transmission or power) Concerning the usage, I've done around 4000-5000 miles with my pro connect. However, my usage is quite intense (35 miles a day) and I use higher power modes a lot because of the very hilly terrain. Moreover, since this summer I've shifted to 11 teeth motor sprocket (that solved the roughness and rattling issues) that has noticeably increased my average speed (thus I almost do not use "eco" mode any more)

Ok, no problem. You can send me the questionnaire by PM. I'll do my best to respond.

Ok Alan (kitchenman) and others, here is a map with Coulée Verte Here is also a map of some other possible bicycle routes out of Paris(including Coulée Verte in light blue). I haven't tried them all as they have been marked down by various users. So, be still vigilant and, if possible, take your GPS or Iphone etc. with map function. If you want to go all the way until St Rémy lés Chevreuse, at the end of the Coulée Verte at Massy, follow one of the tracks marked by the dark blue color on the map and then the track marked by the light green. You can even take a shortcut (by following the light green route all the time), but when you'll miss out most of the Coulée Verte Moreover, this site provides information for all sorts of magnificent bike routes in France. Hundreds of KM along Atlantic coast of France, anyone? Or here some other routes like LIAISON MANCHE - OCEAN: de SAINT MALO à ARZAL - 200km There is even a search engine for all the departments in France (including Paris) for finding scenic bicycle routes with detailed description and maps. Unfortunately, it is only in French Here is the link

Very nice thread. As I live and work in Paris and use an electric bike, all the praise you give to the French is music to my ears. I even feel guilty of jumping the lights ever so often. On a more practical note, if you want to explore the villages and towns and landscapes south of Paris, I recommend "Coulée Verte". It is a green cycle alley that starts from the center of Paris - from Montparnasse, to be more exact. I think it's on an ancient railway track. You can actually get to the center of Paris riding among trees and bushes. It is 21 km long and it goes by the famous Parc de Sceaux with its castle at midway (at 10km), which you can visit. The Coulée Verte ends in Massy, but from there you can continue on cycle roads until St Rémy lès Chevreuse and the famous valley of Chevreuse with all its castles and other tourist attractions. In my experience of 10 years of cycling in Paris, Coulée Verte is the best bicycle route in and out of Paris. It can be a little bit tricky at times with some twists and turns but there are the markings and signs you have to follow to keep yourself on the route. I can provide a link to an electronic map, if anyone is interested. Concerning the electric bikes, there are many of them and I see them every day. There is a french forum dedicated to the electric bikes and commuting just like this one, where you can see that the popularity of electric bikes is going up very fast indeed. For those of you who can speak French, here is a link to the forum

Seeing the service you have, I wish I had bought my PC from 50 cycles... I paid my chain-wheel and motor sprocket from my own pocket. But being in Paris, France, I would encounter some difficulties when sending the bike back to repairs in case of issues Anyway, I'm now very pleased with my PC LX. I've done about a 1000 miles since the change and it runs very smoothly as it should have been from the beginning. As I have a derailleur version with higher maintenance requirements, I thoroughly clean&degrease&lube my chain every 300-400 miles and change it once the chain wear indicator I have indicates me that I should do it. That should keep chain-wheel, motor-sprocket and all the cogs in a good running condition for a long time. And btw, more I ride, more I start to like my PC. I might consider buying one after all (for my wife). New 36V 2012 lineup seems to be quite attractive. It is to be hoped that they have sorted out the problem with 9T motor sprocket by now

NRG, However, on second thought, maybe there is something more to the roughness and chain jumping issue on the idler arm sprocket than only the thickness of the 9T motor sprocket. Otherwise, the owners of the hub gear versions would not experience the issue (their chains are wider that should take care of the problem). However, the evidence provided by robelee (who has a hub geared version of PC), the initiator of this thread, speaks otherwise. Maybe he could measure the width of his 9T motor sprocket to see whether it is even larger than 2,1mm. That would confirm your theory.

Nice work NRG! You've really found the cause of the roughness symptoms. I won't be able to test your solution, though, because I don't have the equipment of thickness reduction and I'm quite pleased with the 11T & 41T setup I have now on my PC 9G LX, which obviously has also taken care of the roughness issue. I probably used the same German ebay vendor as you did to get the aforementioned parts. So they should have the same width as yours, compared to a bit wider 9T sprocket as part of the original setup.

That is what I was saying. As I could only observe the problem while driving the bike, I could not see that the problem originated from the motor sprocket. I only saw that the chain did not engage smoothy the idler arm sprocket, but was instead jumping on it. It is exactly what robelee saw as well with his bike.

Ok, I understand your point. But there has to be something in the design of the 9t motor sprocket systems because the owners of 11/12/13t ones (all the S versions) rarely, if at all, complain about the roughness issue. That is why I changed mine (switch to 11T and 41T), which seems to have taken care of the issue 'permanently' My pro connect has never felt as quiet and smooth as after the switch

Hi robelee, Apparently forum member NRG has found the fundamental cause of the problem in the thread 'Pro Connect feels rough'. He has recorded the video evidence showing where the issue comes from - i.e. faulty design of the 9t motor sprocket. I was able to solve my issue immediately by switching to the 11t motor sprocket. Other than that or constantly renewing the 9t motor sprocket, I do not see much other solutions. One could try to increase chain tension as you did, but will it prevent the problem from reappearing, that is the question.

Thanx NRG for videos! They are excellent. Apparently the slipping on the idler arm sprocket/cog is caused by the chain that gets tangled into the teeth of the 9T motor sprocket and will then not engage correctly the next cog/sprocket. The noise I heard in your video is exactly the noise I had. It also explains why the switch to the 11t motor sprocket immediately solved my problem (i.e. 11t motor sprocket has normal sized teeth compared to the very long ones on the 9t). I was thinking that the the 11t motor sprocket helps to wrap the chain more around the idler arm sprocket and, by doing it, stops the slippage and jumping. But it is too little an effect to make the problem to disappear immediately. Therefore your explanation seems to be the most plausible one. The fact that robelee was able to solve the problem with more chain tension is also coherent because, more chain tension you have, less likely the chain is to get tangled in the teeth of the 9t motor sprocket. Apparently, it happens with relatively very new 9t motor sprockets (mine had at most 500 miles on it), because of its design flaw. So if one is having these 'roughness' problems and cannot switch to the 11t motor sprocket (i.e hub gear versions of PC because of legal issues), other than trying to increase the chain tension, one is obliged to constantly change the 9t motor sprocket (every two weeks or so with intensive riding). I wander whether Derby Cycles knows about this fundamental issue with their 9T motor sprocket because they keep launching the bikes with it to the market. As they become more powerful (the bulk of the 2012 lineup is powered by 36V motors), the problem will only get worse.

Ok, I understand your point. Maybe then we as consumers should inquire Derby Cycles directly why this double follower design has not been made available to all the bikes and whether there is a possibility to acquire one in light of the problems of chain slippage. I remember reading a post in this forum about a guy who got his rims changed that way (because they had too few spokes to support intensive e-biking) And yes, I ignored hub gears, because I don't have a hub gear version of PC. Apparently, ignorance is bliss . So, if one wants to remain in legal speed limits, only derailleur versions of e-bikes with Panasonic crank motor could be considered for the switch to the 41T chain-wheel and 11T motor sprocket.

Although I completely agree with everything else you are saying, I have to disagree here. As Hugh, I think that if the chain jumping/slipping has become a known issue, for the subsequent double sprocket follower, 2011 model design certainly proves it, it is up to Panasonic/Derby to notify the owners of the previous models about the potential issue and the easy fix (i.e. installing a double follower system). That is how the automakers work. It does not matter that the higher power mode causes the problems, and that these modes were introduced as a response to the customer demand. These companies are here to earn money for their shareholders. That is why their are also responding to the customer demand. They also have to fix the potential issues that arise and that seem to be characteristic to the whole series (2009-2010 PCs and Agattus with 9T motor sprocket). The least they could do is to communicate on the problem and not to keep their customers in the dark searching for home-made solutions (such as robelee's or mine) themselves. If these companies fail to do so, other companies, such as Bosch, will just take their market share. It is that simple. As to 41t chainwheel and 11t motor sprocket legality, one only has to adjust the cog(s) of the rear hub(derailleur) accordingly to remain in legal limits. In derailleur case, the smallest cog should have 14t. I've checked, such 9 speed cassettes exist and their are of good quality (i.e campagnolo). Here is a link