Hi. I'd love to get an ebike but am looking for one that looks like a modern MTB and not my Grandads shopping bike from 1952!

I've checked the links on this site and Google but would like to avoid an aftermarket bolt-on kit.

 

I appreciate most of the designs are Chinese and aimed for their own market (I spend lots of time in China and am always amazed by how these bikes are used to move everything around - washing machines, generators etc) but my own bikes are currently carbon fibre, expensive bits- with no mudguards etc.

 

Anyone know of designs like this? I appreciate the benefits of ULTRA lightweight bits are negated by strapping a great lump of motor and battery on, but surely some more modern looking bikes exist.....?

 

Many thanks

I'm not that keen on the design but it's certainly not your grandad's shopper:

Optibike - Optibike Models

not for shopping...hhmmm

 

how about this...

 

Brand New Ebiko Electric Bicycle - Body Trainner

 

or maybe one of these,

 

TidalForce iO

 

probably illegal.

beeps

Edited November 19, 200718 yr by Beeping-Sleauty

I'm in a similar position. Have you considered one of the Heinzmann kits to convert your swish MTB?

 

I've got no experience at the moment but the Kinetics website is very good and i'm very seriously considering my options.

I just got one of these for 150 but it is incredibly heavy and cheap

Electric Bikes & Vehicles

 

and I've noticed this

Find SYNERGIE MISTRAL LITHIUM E-Bike Electric Bike Bicycle on eBay within, Bikes, Cycling, Sporting Goods (end time 29-Nov-07 14:00:49 GMT)

 

probably the same as this

Sustain Cycles - E-bikes, Electric Bikes, Folding electric bicycles, Sustainable transport, Environmental transport, cycles, in Harrow, London, Middlesex, UK, HA1 3TP

 

I have got a kit because it enables me to choose any bike and change around from one bike to another, and it's more discreet because the batteries are on top or sides of rankmount.

Many of the shopper style bikes are inspired by Dutch and other continental designs where function has always been more important than styling, and contemporary mtb styling is not ideally functional for road use. There are a number of broadly mtb styled bikes around such as the Ezee Torq and F series along with the Wisper 905 and others although in reality they are hybrids, the sloping top tube giving them an mtb look. There's no mainstream road racing styled bikes though, the lightweight construction with thin frame tubes and wheels not really being suited to motorisation.

Edited November 19, 200718 yr by Ian

Since you already have the bike or bikes I would recommend one of the great kits that are out there. I made the mistake of buying a new bike and adding the Bionx kit thinking I would still use my road bike and mountain bike because I thought nothing would be able to replace them. The reality is I have not used my road bike and have only used the mountain bike twice when my wife went off roading with me and HAD to use the Bionx.

Check this site out for some variations using the Bionx kit. JV Bike Electric Bikes -- the Best Selection of Electric Bicycles in Canada ...

 

This also shows the new OHM bike using the Bionx motor and console with a new battery company.

Of course Grandad's 1952 shopping bike happens to be a lot more efficient than most MTBs, which are often a triumph of style over function and common sense.

 

To make the most of the limited bike motor power, those experienced e-bike producers, the Chinese, naturally prefer a more efficient bike, giving higher speeds and longer range.

.

Many thanks for the quick replies and info. I'll certainly look at the ideas suggested.

 

I also understand the comments about current bikes being practical - but when was practical ever desirable (my girlfriend doesn't wear walking boots to a party..)?!! I like my toys to make me smile when I open the garage.

 

Or as another analogy it is definitely more practical and sensible to be stuck on a desert island with Ray Mears and his survival expert chums - but I'd much rather be stuck there with Girls Aloud!

 

I looked at fleccs other posts. I think we share a love of things two wheeled but from opposite ends of the spectrum.

 

I looked at fleccs other posts. I think we share a love of things two wheeled but from opposite ends of the spectrum.

 

Not altogether opposite ends though, I appreciate mountain bikes etc where they were originally intended and spent years riding in motorbike off road competition. I also agree with you about the beguiling nature of good MTB styling, but on the road I prefer the enhanced riding pleasure from more efficient bikes.

.

In line with the theme for re-education about bike styling and purpose, are you referring to better efficiency due to no suspension and narrower, slicker tyres, flecc, or does the frame geometry, construction and material make a big difference too? I recall the geometry being mentioned in passing lately, but I've never really understood how that affects performance & handling, for example?

 

Stuart.

It's the whole package Stuart.

 

Narrower road tyres roll easier than the wider and often knobbly treaded tyres on MTBs.

 

Any suspension saps pedal power, particularly at times of greatest need when pedalling hard, since the springs absorb energy and dissipate it uselessly to the road and harmfully back up to the rider, opposing their effort. Of the two, rear suspension is the worst. The ideal is for the connection from all points of the rider to the bike and road to be as rigid as possible, commensurate with enough comfort for the riding purpose.

 

Frames for mountain bikes/MTBs are more often designed with style in mind rather than correct geometry, and the provision of suspension can prevent best geometry. Our bodies physiology dictate a best possible relationship between all the contact points of person with bike, pedals, saddle, handlebars, and this sets the geometry. The best is illustrated by the sort of bikes seen in top cycle racing, and is ideally fine tuned to each individual, in the retail market done with a range of frame sizes sometimes. I'm sure you'll agree there's very little in common between a Tour de France race bike and the average fully sprung MTB, showing how far the latter has strayed from the ideal in the name of fashion.

 

Here's an illustration of one way in which off road requirements compromise frame geometry. Off road bikes need extra ground clearance so have high bottom bracket and pedals. But the saddle needs to be low enough for the rider to be able to get a foot down, so the saddle to bottom bracket distance is immediately compromised by those conflicting requirements. In competition off road, the rider compensates by standing on the pedals and therefore corrects the relationship, but if such a bike is used on road journeys with the rider sitting on the saddle, they are stuck with legs being too bent all the time to exert maximum thrust power, so their performance is reduced.

.

Edited November 20, 200718 yr by flecc

To make my ultimate 'urban machine' I suppose what I now need to do is get a kit (Bionx/Heinzmann/other - yet to decide) fitted onto something along the lines of a Cannondale Bad Boy Ultra. This would hopefully look suitably modern but incorporate the features for a good town bike. Just need to suss out wheelsizes, disc brakes, 8/9 speeds etc etc

 

I agree about suspension sapping power (which is why my carbon MTB has remote lockout levers for front and rear shocks) but the cobbled Yorkshire road shortcuts I often use cause my eyeballs to shake out on ultra stiff aluminium frames. Chassis design/suspension -it's all about compromises......

That sounds good DDmouse, and yes, it is about good compromise of course.

 

As I posted above: "commensurate with enough comfort for the riding purpose", and on those cobbles you do need some defence.

 

I just think it daft when I see someone on smooth roads, squatting on a soggy suspension cheap MTB, legs bent at around 90 degrees all the time and struggling along slowly as I pass them on the more sensible setup of unpowered as well as e-bikes.

 

You'd be better off with V brakes though, discs being more about fashion than good braking. The biggest diameter disc brake, and therefore the most effective, is a rim brake.

.

Edited November 20, 200718 yr by flecc

V-brakes - ohh, hurts just to think about it!!!!

Of course good brake setup is the key but v-brakes means I can't get a custom disc made up with my own name and logo CNC'd into the disc rotor.....

True!

 

In fact I think there's a bit of a case for a disc brake on a motor wheel, since building on a new rim after rim brakes have worn it would be a pain.

 

And the monograms etc are a great anti theft defence.

.

Another advantage of the Bionx system that should be mentioned here is that the regenerative braking really enhances braking power and saves the brakes. The magnetic sensor is set up on the rear brake lever so that the motor goes into regen mode when the brake lever is used. Mine is set so that it turns on this feature by just barely squeezing the lever before the brakes begin to grab.

I like this feature just as much for the enhanced braking as the recharging of the battery.

I seem to remember having the choice of mtb style or shopping style when I bought my lafree, but went for the shopping type style as being less cool and therefore less desirable to the thief. I made a cover for the battery which slings over both sides a bit like a pannier, and this means it is not immediately obvious it is an electric bike when it is parked up too.

Off road bikes need extra ground clearance so have high bottom bracket and pedals. But the saddle needs to be low enough for the rider to be able to get a foot down, so the saddle to bottom bracket distance is immediately compromised by those conflicting requirements... if such a bike is used on road journeys with the rider sitting on the saddle, they are stuck with legs being too bent all the time to exert maximum thrust power, so their performance is reduced.

Thanks for the explanation flecc - now I finally understand why, when I adjust the saddle height 'correctly' for the pedals on my MTB, my feet barely reach the ground! duh! I guess I was a bit slow to work that out! - I'd always assumed the 'frame size' was a bit too big for me; however, the Torq 'handlebar reach' feels far more roomy and comfortable in comparison now, and my feet reach the ground better too with the saddle height properly adjusted for the pedals, so I guess its just that the MTB geometry is all out of balance, like you say. The penny has dropped on this one .

 

Stuart.

Edited November 20, 200718 yr by coops

Don't see many MTBs in the Tour-de-France, even on the mountain stages. Look to the pro's to see what makes an efficient bike.

Don't worry Stuart, the penny hasn't dropped yet with many of the "designers" of these mountain bikes and MTBs. They just put things where they need to be for the bike to look good, with little regard for human physiology.

.

DDmouse,

 

Are the kalkhoff bikes (other models have front suspension, but thats the men's frame style) too Grandad like? They'd be more durable and better suited to uneven/cobbled roads than hub motor bikes too (ok, that sounds far too sensible, but no-one wants their bike to break, do they?).

 

Or how about the Izip street etc. 'enlightened' bikes? They look a bit more like MTBs, and with hidden 'in-frame' battery and very small hub motor quite inconspicuous as electric bikes.

 

Otherwise, if the more 'sporty' looking bikes like Torq, Forza or Wisper are not modern enough, you could fit a kit to your bike of choice as you say, but I expect the motor, batteries, controller & wiring will mar its looks somewhat, aswell as being a bit messy - what sort of speed, range & power assist ratio do you want, and how hilly is your terrain? The batteries for ebikes can be quite heavy, and fitting them is one of the biggest problems with conversion kits. Could get quite pricey too, buying kit & bike.

 

Stuart.

Edited November 20, 200718 yr by coops

Efficiency

 

I'm a little puzzled why it is suggested that shopping style bikes, or bikes that give a 'stately' riding position (to give them a kinder description) are more efficient than more 'trendy' or sporting designs. Most touring and racing bikes position the rider so he/she is leaning forward to reduce wind resistance and in what seems to be an ergonomic posture. I'm not convinced that the same is true for most electric bikes (although haven't tried many). MTBs can suffer from loss of energy in the suspension and knobbly tyres but otherwise follow the general style of touring or racing bikes.

 

I also don't think it can be due to the weight of the motor or strength required. Whilst a lightweight racing bike might not cope with a large weight swinging about high up on a carrier, most mountain bikes are pretty sturdy and designed to take some punishment.

 

Maybe the designers of electic bikes are mainly aiming at cyclists who wish to put in relatively little effort and are happy to sit upright as on a Dutch bike. But i think there are many others (particularly enthusiasts on thsi forum) who want to put some effort in and use the electric power to increase their speed or range but still want an efficient riding position. Equally, they prefer a sporting style to an elegant (or in some cases downright ugly) style.

 

Having looked at the range of electric bikes avialable, I thought the Ezee Torq looked reasonably acceptable but when i showed the picture to my wife she just laughed and asked why i wanted such a dreadful looking bike (apologies to all the Torq owners but that's her opinion!). Hence my reversion to looking at kits for converting an existing bike....

 

Steveu

I've been looking at the amount of power needed to move a bike recently, using the online power calculator here: Bicycle Speed And Power Calculator. The results are interesting.

 

For a speed of 15mph on level ground with no wind, an upright "roadster" style bike needs 167 watts, of which 46 watts is needed to overcome rolling resistance and 121 watts is needed to overcome aerodynamic drag. A fairly fit, non-athlete, can generate about 80 to 100 watts continuously, perhaps double this for a short time.

 

For the same conditions, a drop handle bar "racing" bike, with the rider in the dropped position, needs 88 watts, of which 33 watts is rolling resistance and 55 watts is aerodynamic drag.

 

For the same conditions, my short wheelbase recumbent needs 77 watts, of which 39 watts is needed to overcome rolling resistance and 28 watts is needed to overcome aerodynamic drag.

 

It's no wonder that recumbents are banned from international cycling competitions.

 

Taking this to extremes, the power calculator above also allows a streamlined velomobile trike to be modelled. Under the same conditions as above, such a trike needs 70 watts, of which 57 watts are needed to overcome rolling resistance and just 13 watts are needed to overcome drag.

 

At a power input of 200 watts, the velomobile trike will do nearly 29 mph on the level, with no wind.

 

Jeremy

Hi Steveu,

 

I think the distinction being drawn is between bikes well-designed for a given purpose and those only made to 'look' good: upright bikes are good to pedal (no suspension, narrow-ish slick tyres & good saddle-pedal distance) up to speeds where rolling resistance is dominant i.e. about 12mph, while racing bikes are more 'aero' oriented for higher speeds, while retaining the same basic pedalling efficiency by design.

 

Fashion mountain bikes may be less upright, but I think anyone would struggle to get to 12mph or beyond on the roads on one with needlessly energy sapping thick, knobbly tyres, dual suspension and poor pedalling efficiency due to bad geometry, so any forward leaning 'aero' benefit would be void! .

 

I think even ebikes designed to go 15mph or so should allow the rider to take up a more aero 'tuck', if they want: many riders as you say would not consider that necessary or even desirable, but at least some such ebikes can be pedalled fairly efficiently and will not suffer huge sapping of rider or, more costly, motor power due to knobbly tyres, suspension & poor pedalling efficiency for example. We're lucky that some 'sporty' ebikes exist for perormance enthusiasts, while for others a more sedate/refined style is readily available :-).

 

The Torq for instance is (I think?) a sort of hybrid style, but does allow one to adopt a more aero position if one wants. Also 28" wheels, closely-spaced gears, no-suspension, good saddle-pedal distance and not over-wide or knobbly tyres all help make it good for pedal contribution, even at high speeds. It would be interesting to know what your wife considers a 'good-looking' bike , though a good bike is more important than the way it looks!

 

I think its best to decide how you want to use your ebike, then find one to suit which is adequately designed for the job :-) (& then convince your other half!).

 

I agree that recumbents are more efficient on level roads, but though I've never tried one the lower visibility on roads and seemingly less efficient ride position for hills would put me off riding one, especially in cities!

 

Stuart.

Edited November 21, 200718 yr by coops