I spend a large chunk of my year in France and I can only say that the French are very little different from the English. I do speak French which helps but I am always surprised by definitive statements about 60 million people as if they were all alike and of one opinion.

 

Would anyone speak about a Londoner and an Orkney fisherman as if they were the same - all British? Of course not. Yet we talk of 'the French' as if they are all the same, Parisian fashion designer and Pyrenean shepherd.

 

You think the French drive crazily fast? Take a drive around the M25. You think French food is great? Go to a tourist restaurant in a Provençal tourist hilltop tourist village.

 

The one big difference that I do find is that French car drivers treat cyclists with a great deal more respect than do English drivers. May be to do with the fact that in an accident the car driver is presumed to be at fault.

 

I can say from personal experience that I have met many British who simply don't like the French. But from some years living in France I can equally say that I have not found that feeling much reciprocated.

 

Many French are rather formal and correct in their behaviour, more like the English were in the 50s and that is often interpreted by the much more 'in yer face' British as arrogance or stand-offishness. That's a misinterpretation. The French are as formal to each other as they are to foreigners.

 

My next door neighbours in my Languedoc village resolutely addressed me as Monsieur until I asked them to call me David. It took a while longer before my next door neighbour accepted being addressed as Jean-Claude rather than Monsieur Grange, however.

 

Personally, I don't mind that but I know that many British feel they are being treated as inferiors. They aren't but lacking knowledge of the culture and language, it's easy to understand why they think so.

Edited August 2, 201213 yr by lemmy

I read this thread with interest, having studied the French language for many years and spent much time driving there. It is interesting how all languages are evolving continually. Did anyone notice how Flec spelt "program" as in "radio programme". American English seems to be taking over here more and more particularly in the business world.

There are so many French in London that some even end up on pedelecs

 

More seriously, it is almost impossible to go out in London without meeting/hearing French. I have spent 5 years in Portsmouth before moving to London, the difference is quite choking.

 

Goryl

I speak a reasonable amount of French and I think that that is what makes the difference. I find the French to be just the same as the British. Once you mix with them rather than being just a visitor, it is difficult to find much difference. Certainly in the South, their attitude to animals and firearms may be different to ours, but not startlingly so. Just don't expect them to be exactly the same.

Oops......yes, I stand corrected and have spanked myself accordingly

 

Lynda

 

Wish I was there!

I am starting to be very curious: Could you explain what exactly you mean by :

 

"Certainly in the South, their attitude to animals and firearms may be different to ours, but not startlingly so. Just don't expect them to be exactly the same."

 

Goryl

Did anyone notice how Flec spelt "program" as in "radio programme". American English seems to be taking over here more and more particularly in the business world.

 

You weren't to know of course, but may I correct your false impression?

 

I very deliberately insist on the spelling "program" because that is the correct English language spelling at all times. It is a form of spelling that American settlers took there for hundreds of years and have properly retained.

 

The word programme is a French word which has no place in the English language. Early in the 1800s a handful of the wealthy chattering classes in London adopted the affectation of spelling many words in the French manner to show off their education and many words were affected in this way. Many of the other English people being the snobs they so often tended to be imitated that silly affectation.

 

During this time the Oxford English Dictionary was being founded and as a result these affected words found their way into it in droves. But of course like all silly fashions, this one didn't last and the Oxford English Dictionary gradually lost the inappropriate spellings. Therefore we no longer write anagramme for example, though that was in that dictionary briefly. But for some unknown reason the spelling of programme escaped the cleansing, probably overlooked since there was less reason to use it in the nineteenth century other than in an entertainment contest like the theatre where affectations are rife anyway.

 

That of course was an error of omission, so accordingly I correct it and spell program correctly.

 

Do I have any independent authority for my contention? Yes, the Cambridge Encyclopedia of the English Language. ISBN 0-521-40179-8

.

Edited August 3, 201213 yr by flecc

I am starting to be very curious: Could you explain what exactly you mean by :

 

"Certainly in the South, their attitude to animals and firearms may be different to ours, but not startlingly so. Just don't expect them to be exactly the same."

 

Goryl

Two examples.

1 I was in Oleron Ste. Marie with a French friend. I heard some one shooting what was obvioulsy a 0.22 rifle in an orchard about 100 yards away. I was alarmed and pointed this out. Almost as if it was no account, my friend just said 'Yes' and carried on with his conversation.

2 At Peyrehorade, they have a street market. One of the stalls was selling rifles. I saw a prospective purchaser pick up one of the rifles and aim it at the chimney pots to check the telescopic sight. No-one batted an eyelid.

3 There is a corrida at Mont de Masarn where they hold bull fights. A French woman who had lived and worked in New York told me that she had not been to it, but would go 'If the fight was very beautiful.' Delivered in a strong New York accent, I found this quite bizarre.

Wow...Flecc, if there was an Olympic medal for diverse knowledge you would have my vote

 

 

 

Lynda

P.S. It's great this pedantry stuff, isn't it?

.

Yes! For a while I thought I might be the only one in here, but it is reassuring to see a (insert suitable collective noun) of pedants forming.

 

Incidentally, for no logical reason (though I worked in broadcasting for most of my adult life), I tend to refer to radio and TV programmes, but computer programs. I suppose they are fairly different concepts.

... Do I have any independent authority for my contention? Yes, the Cambridge Encyclopedia of the English Language. ISBN 0-521-40179-8

.

So you have the other copy! That David Crystal knows his stuff!

Yes! For a while I thought I might be the only one in here, but it is reassuring to see a (insert suitable collective noun) of pedants forming.

 

Incidentally, for no logical reason (though I worked in broadcasting for most of my adult life), I tend to refer to radio and TV programmes, but computer programs. I suppose they are fairly different concepts.

 

I think the collective a grammar of pedants would fit well.

 

Your use of programme fits my supposition that it was possibly the theatrical event usage that allowed that spelling to persist despite it's invalidity. Even if one disregards the origins of these French anachronisms in the English language that I've highlighted above, the correct and approved use of gram instead of gramme outside of France is an indication of the validity of the spelling program for all purposes elsewhere.

I don't think that you can rule out the use of words beacause of how they came into or remain in the language. It is the glory of English that it is a melting-pot of words from many sources, and it is ultimately usage that determines words' survival. We don't want to be like the Academie Francaise trying desperately and failing miserably to preserve their language in aspic.

I don't think that you can rule out the use of words beacause of how they came into or remain in the language. It is the glory of English that it is a melting-pot of words from many sources, and it is ultimately usage that determines words' survival. We don't want to be like the Academie Francaise trying desperately and failing miserably to preserve their language in aspic.

 

Absolutely! Quoting dictionaries and sources is useless with a living changing thing like English. It is almost as if someone 'owns' the language and can say what is right or wrong.

 

What makes English unique is that it is the only language in the world where there are more non-native speakers than native. About 1 billion non native and 60 million native, in fact. Its strength is that it has no absolute rules, can be mangled and 'pronounced funny' but remain understandable.

 

From my personal almost musical favourite, the Jamaican patois to broad Glaswegian to pidgin, it is all 'proper' English.

 

I love the French language and love speaking it but it is hidebound and, like, for example, Welsh, has to import English (actually, mostly American) words to keep up with the modern world.

 

Some French friends of mine enjoy speaking English as I enjoy speaking French. I pointed out to them that actually, they spoke American. It's lost on them, of course. When they come to England their American English is seamlessly understood so they fail to comprehend (or care about) the difference. That is for English people and their dictionaries.

I don't think that you can rule out the use of words beacause of how they came into or remain in the language. It is the glory of English that it is a melting-pot of words from many sources, and it is ultimately usage that determines words' survival. We don't want to be like the Academie Francaise trying desperately and failing miserably to preserve their language in aspic.

 

I wouldn't advocate that either Roger, but I make an exception with program for four very good reasons. The tiny number of very unrepresentative citizens who introduced the French affectation; it's unintended and mistaken adoption into a newly formed dictionary with the intended but missed correction; the unnecessarily cumbersome nature of the affected spelling; and the now universal adoption of program in computing with parallel widespread adoption of that true spelling for all purposes.

 

My purpose is to hasten the last mentioned which is happening anyway. After all, even the French use program too now!

A term that really gets up my nose, is "Received Pronunciation." Who exactly is receiving what, from whom, and by what right?

A term that really gets up my nose, is "Received Pronunciation." Who exactly is receiving what, from whom, and by what right?

I thought it was Perceived Pronunciation ... but I could be wrong ... I often am!:o

I thought it was Perceived Pronunciation ... but I could be wrong ... I often am!:o

 

I am ... again! :o

 

Received Pronunciation is defined in the Concise Oxford Dictionary as "the standard accent of English as spoken in the south of England" ... which, of course, explains everything!

So by that definition, Received Pronunciation, is the language as spoken on Eastenders, innit? Otherwise known as "Cockanese". Or perhaps, the language you "receive" on the "Wireless".

That last part is correct Neptune, effectively received pronunciation was the English used by BBC announcers on TV and radio until fairly recently.

 

In the last decade the BBC and other broadcasters have been increasingly using announcers and presenters from various UK regions, making that no longer always the case.

 

Personally I prefer the use of the traditional received pronunciation since it makes for the best intelligibility. All too often on TV in the last decade I've been unable to understand the occasional word or phrase spoken indistinctly with a regional accent or dialect.

We have come a long way from French Stop signs. Personally I love to hear regional dialects. In my early days of long distance lorry driving, I sometimes struggled to understand Glaswegian, Geordie, and Scouse dialects. But after a while, you develop an ear for them. Like most people, the way I speak depends on the company I am in at the time. I can still speak broad Lincolnshire if in the right company, or I can speak something fairly close to Received Pronunciation if in the company of people from other regions, or indeed countries. I gave a lift once to a young polish couple who had come to spend some time in Lincolnshire on a working holiday. They said that I was the first Lincolnshire person who they could easily understand, as I spoke "like a College Professor !" I did not know whether to be complimented or insulted.

The other thing I find with Radio and TV, is that my hearing is not quite as sharp as it used to be.

My wife and I once spent a week with some friends in Wigan, Lancs. She went into a shop to buy a pair of tights. She was born in Cambridgeshire, and when she says "tights", it sounds like "toights" . She failed totally to be understood, and had to fetch our Lancashire friend to buy them for her!

... All too often on TV in the last decade I've been unable to understand the occasional word or phrase spoken indistinctly with a regional accent or dialect. ...

 

I originate from the north, so I do understand the accent ... but it is the mispronounced or incorrect words that infuriate me! Bring back the white shirt and black bow tie of the BBC radio announcers!

 

They spoke 'proper' English

Personally I love to hear regional dialects. In my early days of long distance lorry driving, I sometimes struggled to understand Glaswegian, Geordie, and Scouse dialects. But after a while, you develop an ear for them.

 

I do too, and having spent years in the army among others from all over the UK I'm also well used to all the regional accents and dialects. The problem arises when someone mispronounces or speaks unclearly, and that combined with the regional accent or dialect makes what is being said unintelligible.

Scottish people, me, tend to be able to understand most other accents. Which is strange since no-one understands us. That has its advantages sometimes though.

 

Aberdeenshire accents are the exception to every rule.

Scottish people, me, tend to be able to understand most other accents. Which is strange since no-one understands us. That has its advantages sometimes though.

True. I have no trouble understanding most of what's said in other parts of these islands. A lot of that is because the wireless spread RP which did influence the way that many people spoke over several generations. I would say it's gone downhill since the demise of RP - RP was a good thing in many ways; the audio equivalent of Civil Service cursive script that was taught in schools, with the idea of creating a nation of potential talent to draw upon to run an empire.

Aberdeenshire accents are the exception to every rule.

That, and deepest darkest Ayrshire or Dumfriesshire. I did occasionally run across the odd one who spoke a real countryside dialect.