There's nothing wrong with your bike. If you had given them a specification to build to that said the power must come within 0.5 secs of start of pedalling, and it didn't do that, you would be able to get something done.

 

There's a few things that could be done. You could get a Cycle Analyst v3 and a Thun torque sensor for about £220, and run your brakes and throttle signal through it. Your brakes will then interrupt the throttle signal, not the controller, so it'll start immediately you let go of the brakes. The torque sensor also makes a throttle signal, so it's the same result.

 

Other than that, you need a new controller, but you need to know the delay time for the brakes. Without knowing how much current you want, it's not possible to recommend one. You haven't given us any details of your system yet, so it's impossible to help. You might already have a CA and Thun, which would go some way to justifying the price, but we have no idea.

Points taken d8veh, taken completely. I haven't given you any specifics like that cos I wasn't GIVEN any specifics like that! No handbook, no manual, no nothing.

 

Here are the pics, some of which might help the analysis, although not much - the only bits that has words is the battery. Couldn't see any markings at all on the motor, or the controller, or the throttle or switches on the bars. So, for what they're worth, here they are:

 

Right. Now we're getting somewhere. That looks like a Crystalyte motor. This one or similar:

http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Brushless-Direct-Drive-High-Power-Electric_961489815.html

 

Do you have any sort of control panel on the handlebars, and what's that switch for?

 

Edit: after a bit more looking, I don't think that is a real Crystalyte.

No LCD.

 

All that's on the bars is:

right hand side, throttle and on/off switch (pictured).

left hand side, a "I II III" switch for power levels, new picture below. The 'other' switch next to the throttle is my Gravitydropper.

 

The only visual display is on the throttle housing - three little lights come on for fully charged, and go out one by one as the battery runs down.

 

A.

I'm very puzzled by what you've got. The Boss system in their advert and video is a cassette geared motor (probably Xofo), but you have a completely different (what appears to be) Chinese $100 motor with a pretty standard controller, cheapo PAS and throttle. A really high quality kit, like a Falco or Bionx can be had for less than £1500. They both have sophisticated PAS systems, but no throttle. I just cannot see where the money went to.

 

The cause of your problem and solution are still the same as I mentioned before: Torque sensor conversion or new controller. There's also a couple of displays that convert a PAS signal to a throttle signal amd multiplex it to the normal throttle. They only cost a few quid. BMSBattery used to do one, but it's disappeared from their listings now. I 'm just going out now so no time to search. Perhaps someone else can provide the link. Parnett has one.

Thanks for spending some of your Sunday thinking about it, D8veh; appreciated.

 

The only other bits of info I haven't relayed: The throttle works totally independently of the pedal assist, so while it DOES cut out when the brakes are applied, it comes back in instantly they are released.

 

The guy who did the actual work has since left TETS London, which is a shame. Couple of things he said/did during the process: that he had to gear the system DOWN to 70% of power as if he'd left the pedals at full power they'd be going faster than you could pedal. And at the death, as he was going out of the door he said (verbatim) that "if the pedal assist doesn't kick in, then give the throttle a blip, and it'll come back in".

 

Bikes do differ, I know, but I still want to get this one as close to my original spec as possible, which was like a 'souped up Wisper'...

 

A.

Hello d8veh & the rest of you who've read this and tried to help.

 

An update.

 

Originally, TETS said that it was the bike's unique characteristics to behave as it did, and that I would get used to it.

 

Finally, the new guy at ETS London looked at it and agreed that while the electrics and mechanics were working fine, the functioning itself was wrong, and his verdict is:

 

I've now contacted the supplier of these parts in USA to see where to go with it, awaiting a response now. The parts on the bike all look mechanically and electrically sound. So i believe there is a compatibility issue between the pedelec disc and sensor.

 

Sounds like an explanation, but as I know NOTHING about discs or sensors, could someone give me a translation (and an opinion) of what he says?

 

Thanks.

 

Allen.

Think I'd be inclined to tell him to try a couple of alternative sensor/magnet ring combinations - Rocket science it ain't & any kit fitter that doesn't keep simple spares like those...

My interpretation is that the controller is an infineon from Em3ev. There was a recent post on Endless-Sphere, where a guy had a pedal sensor that didn't work properly. I suggested to him that the software in his controller wasn't compatible to the type of sensor he had. He changed the sensor and it worked perfectly. Maybe ETS read that thread.

 

The controller you have isn't really suitable for pedal assistance, so the £600 you paid was completely wasted. They should have fitted something like the S12SH from BMSBattery, which allows you to set the level of assistance via a LCD control panel. I'm very sorry, but as far as I can see, they've done a terrible job and they've given you totally the wrong kit for what you want, although I don't know what you agreed with them should have been done. Did you ask then what the £600 was for, when they, ve given you the wrong controller for pedal assist with a high power motor?

 

I'm really sorry to have to explain it like this. If I could do something to make your bike better I'd do it. Basically, your bike is unsuitable for a 20ah 48v battery. They should have told you that before fitting the kit. It now needs a new controller, so basically, you're left with a bike with a $100 motor fitted and you need a very clever design/fabrication solution to fit any suitable battery let alone a 48v 20ah one. I think if I were you, unless you agreed otherwise with them, I'd take the bike back and tell them to fit the Boss kit like the one you ordered which is shown on their website.

Hello d8veh,

 

And as usual thanks for your input.

 

Life, of course, is complicated.

 

The Boss system they sell for £2K is a high-torque THROTTLE-ONLY system.

 

Which I don't want. I want a bike like my Wisper, full pedal assist plus throttle, but more powerful.

 

So when I discussed this with TETS, they said that 'Yes,' they could do that, and quoted me the extra 33% for the extra work, special brake levers with electric cut-outs, special rear rack to house controller and battery, etc. I agreed.

 

Maybe they should have said 'No,' it wasn't possible; I don't know. I am just a 'simple' customer.

 

I will have to wait a few days till they propose their solution, once and for all, to this problem. It has occurred to me to take my bike to a DIFFERENT electric bike shop to have it finished/fixed, but contrary to expectation, there aren't that many in London.

 

(This has been going on for nearly 6 months since I first delivered my bike for conversion).

 

I know that if you were me you'd probably shout and rage, but I'm not sure it would do any good at this stage!

 

Allen.

OK, I understand. Please let us know how it pans out. I think that if you'd paid about £1200, I'd be blaming you for not tying down the seller to a clear speciication, but for £2600, I'd expect a top professional job from them. You can buy a good Haibike for that sort of money.

 

Let's hope that they see sense and get it sorted out to a standard that satisfies you.

 

If in the end, they don't, I'll sort it for you if you want. You'll have to pay about £70 return shipping. I can't do it just yet though because I'm doing Benjis. He was threatening to take his to ETS, but I managed to save him.

d8veh: that goes far beyond what I asked, but it is an offer I might take up.

 

Thanks indeed - at least it gives me a welcome way out of this hole, if I need it.

 

I'll keep you informed.

 

 

A.

 

PS Thanks too, jackhandy; I know you're right, but like many ebikers I really am a dunce at the sharp end, so arguments get one-sided...

Edited July 6, 201411 yr by allen-uk

Your opinions welcomed on this:

 

ETS say they can do the job, i.e. fit smooth continuous pedelec operation, but ONLY if I settle for ONE power level, not the 1-2-3 as presently fitted.

 

This, says the new guy at London, would give smooth operation at the SAME power setting as having the throttle wide open - so I assume that once you were bowling along, if you found it too fast you'd just have to stop pedalling for a bit.

 

Does this sound a reasonable solution? I have the power on my Wisper 905 at max all the time without a problem, but will the vastly increased torque on the Boss mean that my feet can't keep up with the pedals?

 

Advice welcomed, thanks.

 

 

Allen.

Not at all. It'll be diabolical. Has he ever tried anything like that? You need a controller with a LCD and at least five levels of assist. The S12S or S12SH from BMSBattery should do it. They're sine-wave controllers for smoother quieter power, and you can switch them between speed control and current control, so you can have 5 levels of current instead of speed.

Thanks d8veh.

 

I've conveyed that thought to TETS London, as having glanced on Google the controllers you mention are less than 50 dollars, small beer against the lump I've paid out so far.

 

Many thanks for the excellent and specific advice; I must owe you many pints by now.

 

 

A.

I'd have a pint yourself after that service.

Tempted, superDove, but as an ex-alcoholic, it'd end in tears!

 

Latest from TETS London is that he's made contact with the US people who supplied the kit in the first place, and is very confident that between them they can now sort out the problems.

 

I'll keep you all posted.

 

 

A.

It seems really daft to for them to buy A Chinese kit from USA because you have a double mark-up and double transport costs. The USA people no nothing about pedal assist systems because, in general, they don't use them. That's probably why you never got it in the first place, and then they suggested another daft solution, which probably nobody has ever tried. I wish you luck, and hope it gets sorted out soon.

No tears please! Hope you get it sorted soon and can report back some good news.

An update, although not a very happy one.

 

It seems that TETS can't do what I paid them to do, that is supply a Boss conversion with pedelec and throttle.

 

I am almost ground to a halt, now.

 

However, they again suggest (as they did a month or so back) that what they CAN do is give me the bike with Boss conversion, throttle, and only ONE level of pedelec power, that is set to maximum power, no different levels.

 

I've agreed to this on a temporary basis, i.e. that they fix up the bike in that way, send it to me, and I test it, and if I find it unacceptable I'll send it straight back to them.

 

I know you (d8veh) described this is as a 'diabolical' solution, but I've got to let them have a go at it, with me testing it, before I can dismiss it out of hand. Haven't I? What choices are left?

 

I passed on the suggestions about the new controller a month ago, but they were ignored; I suspect they didn't want to spend any more money on the bike (although I did offer to PAY for the new controller).

 

I should get their version of a Boss conversion with pedelec in the next week or so, and will report back when I find out what it is actually like to ride, although I suspect that my original spec., i.e. for 'a Wisper with more oomph', might not be arriving at my door any time soon.

 

However, I'll wait and see.

 

A.

Latest from TETS London. Can't make head or tail of the argument here.

 

Can anyone throw light on what they're saying?

 

QUOTE...

 

It isn't the throttle that decides if you can start from stand still but the motor. Unfortunately the BOSS cannot be started from stand still as it is what is known as a 'sensor-less' motor.

 

After discussing the requirements, you will need a sensored motor otherwise they will keep breaking.

 

UNQUOTE.

 

What????? (As it happens, when I briefly had the bike a few months ago, it DID start from standstill on the throttle, as you'd expect).

 

Is there ANY sense in the above, or has the world gone finally loopy?

 

A

These big DD motors without hall sensors often don't like to start from a standstill. The controller uses the sensors to figure out when to fire pulses to turn the motor. Without them, it needs the motor to be turning to figure out when to time them. Some controllers are better at figuring it out than others. On your setup, if you used full throttle from a stand-still, it's possible to blow the FETs in the controller. Whatever you do, don't let them have any more money.

Hello d8veh.

 

No, no more money, no more bike. They've given up, even on the single-power version.

 

They're now talking refunds, which I am assuming (berk that I am) will be swift and total...

 

At my advanced years, 8 months down the drain is a SIGNIFICANT lump out of my future life expectancy!

 

PS Have you got any ideas where I can get a high-powered conversion done? How far is Telford from NW London?

 

A

London to Telford: 157 miles, 2 and a half hours by train.

An epilogue.

 

First, a recap.

 

I wanted an off-road bike, a pedelec with a throttle - basically like my Wisper, but with loads more torque. I wasn’t interested in speed, just hill-climbing - north-west London isn’t the Highlands, but some of the off-road tracks have some really climbs, and getting too steep for me lately.

 

The Boss conversion offered by TETS seemed to fit the bill. Expensive, sure, but my philosophy has always been that if you want the best, you have to pay the price.

 

On their website, there is a video showing a Boss bike in action - very impressive. It turned out that the Boss is throttle only, but after discussing it with their London branch they assured me that a pedelec version was just a matter of some extra work (and an extra £600 on the bill).

 

I delivered my bike to them, paid the money and waited, and waited, for many months, during which time they had problems and then more problems. At one stage they delivered the bike to me, but the pedal power only kicked in occasionally, so back it went for further work.

 

Towards the end of this eight-month period, TETS offered me a different bike - custom-built, looked the part, but I would have ended up paying the £2600 plus the £950 I'd paid for my original non-electric bike, and for £3500+ I could have bought two brand-new Wispers - and worst of all, the offered bike was the same nominal torque rating as my Wisper 905.

 

I turned down the offer, and settled for a refund instead, as eight months was long enough even for someone with my patience. It took a few weeks to negotiate the final terms of surrender. Initially, LETS wanted to knock off £430 for the 'rack and bag' , the brake levers, and fitting those bits. Eventually they backed down and just gave me back all my money, including the new Topeak rack and bag (to replace my original rack which they'd lost), and left the new brake levers on the bike.

 

So financially I couldn't complain - in fact if you read the preceding pages, I haven’t complained about price, just what I got for my money. The other cause for complaint was the lack of expertise shown by TETS - first telling me that they could certainly build the bike I wanted, and finally telling me not only that they couldn’t, and that in their opinion no-one else could, either!

 

Anyway, as you can't ride a refund, I was stuck with no bike.

 

At which point St George, in the person of d8veh (well-known in these columns) rode to my rescue and offered to build me the bike I'd wanted for the cost of the parts, which he guessed would be around £1000. We had an upside-down haggling session in which I finally got him to agree to accept more money than that - although if he'd included his labour, the final bill would have been FAR higher.

 

And after a couple of months, he delivered.

 

And what a bike!

 

A powerful (500W) off-roader with full throttle and pedelec functions - see photographs below [ATTACH=full]10071[/ATTACH] .

 

My 'donor' bike had been a nicely balanced mountain bike - an On One steel frame, and pre-electric it rode like a thoroughbred. Dave decided to 're-balance' the new e-bike by distributing the extra weight towards the centre, and built a one-off battery container to fit into my 'triangle’. He made a wooden mould, and then cast a fibre-glass container. He found a specialist battery maker in Germany to make a triangular battery to fit the new space, so that the extra weight of the motor and battery are spread out from back wheel to handlebars, and the bike is as well balanced as ever.

 

He used the following configuration (not that I understand the technicalities, being a rider rather than a fixer): a 48v Bafang BPM2 motor (500w 260 rpm at 25 amps). The custom-built battery is 48v, 15aH, Sony VT3 cells. Bafang 500W BMSB kit (motor, controller, LCD, torque arms, throttle, etc). to achieve what I'd asked for in the first place, that is to say a pedelec, set up like my Wisper 905, but much (much) more powerful.

 

I'm now riding round on what TETS declared was an impossibility.

 

The controller is tucked-in on top of the battery, under the crossbar. Handlebar controls are the throttle, an on-off switch which controls the power level, and an easy-to-read LCD which shows power levels (1 to 5), battery charge indicator, inside and outside temperature (probably) - all the usual data you get from a bike computer.

 

Haven’t tested the range yet, but Dave took the bike out on a long test ride (50km), and reported that the battery still had loads left when he returned. More than enough for me, as a long run for me would be 15km.

 

The ride is smooth and powerful - it’s been a long time since I’ve driven a sports car, but that’s certainly the feeling (compared to the Wisper, which is more like a Transit van).

 

It does go fast, of course, but it is the raw power that pleases me most - I can take my large and unfit body (125kg-plus, one plastic leg, generally old and not what it was) to the foot of a very steep path, and get to the top - with some effort on my part - where before I would have had to stop half way, and either turn and go back, or push my heavy and underpowered Wisper to the summit.

 

On level ground, particularly in a park where I might encounter pedestrians, I keep the power setting to ‘3’, which is about equivalent to maximum on the Wisper, and it moves me along (with some pedalling) at 12 to 15 mph or so. I don’t think it would go particularly fast - maybe 25 or so tops - but speed doesn’t interest me.

 

I’ve kept to Schwalbe Marathon Plus tyres, which gave me over 4 years puncture-free riding on the Wisper, and I’ve slimed the tubes. Fingers crossed.

 

The brakes are excellent. We’ve used hydraulic discs - beautifully smooth action - in fact it feels like braking in a car, even in the wet.

 

Unfortunately for the e-bike industry, Dave doesn’t want a job. He’s far too busy doing favours for the likes of me, which is the e-bike industry’s loss, and our gain. The expertise and inventiveness of this man is stunning, and there are too few like him.

 

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