2 Year, 8000 mile Review of Kalkhoff Pro-Connect

I have placed a long term review of the bike in the reviews section. I'll attempt to answer any any additional questions about living with the 2008 model although this may not be as quick as I would like.

I'd also like to apologise to iangrimmett who PM'ed me about the performance of the bike an embarrassingly long time ago but which I only got by logging into my account recently.

Edited April 4, 201016 yr by c_elder

Thanks c elder, a really excellent long term report which will be very helpful for prospective purchasers.

For such prospective customers, I'd add that the 24 spoke wheels that gave spoke trouble are no longer current, these models have reliable 36 spoke wheels now.

.

Thanks for the review. Being a Pro Conect owner, it made interesting reading.

I was particularly interested to hear about battery performance. My battery which has now been used for about 3000 miles (exchanged just over 12 months ago) is showing definite signs of wear. I have had the usual 4, even 3 lights on the capacity check through the winter, but ignored this as I thought it was the cold weather. However, performing the "conditioning discharge" has not brought the capacity check back to 5 lights for any period of time. The capacity check drops back to 4 lights after a couple of uses of the battery. I have also reached the point where very soon, I will have to recharge the battery at work to get home.

Just over 12 months ago, the battery would have probably taken me to work, back home and to work again. There is a definite and significant reduction in battery performance.

I see from your reveiw that you have had a similar experience. Which brings me to my next question, "Have you considered this to be a warranty issue"? I can't make my mind up on this one. The battery is guaranteed for two years, but what should we expect. What is an acceptable reduction in performance? If it is sold as a 10 Ah battery guaranteed for two years, is it reasonable to expect to have a 10 Ah battery for the duration of that period? If not, what should we expect?

Tom

... Which brings me to my next question, "Have you considered this to be a warranty issue"? I can't make my mind up on this one. The battery is guaranteed for two years, but what should we expect. What is an acceptable reduction in performance? If it is sold as a 10 Ah battery guaranteed for two years, is it reasonable to expect to have a 10 Ah battery for the duration of that period? If not, what should we expect?

Even though I said that the battery life was below expectation, I consider this a wear and tear issue on the basis that degradation is a known issue on all rechargeable batteries.

 

The battery is guaranteed for two years, but what should we expect. What is an acceptable reduction in performance? If it is sold as a 10 Ah battery guaranteed for two years, is it reasonable to expect to have a 10 Ah battery for the duration of that period? If not, what should we expect?

 

Tom

Battery University website has this on lithium battery life, the reference to spinel or manganese being applicable for the Panasonic battery:

Aging of lithium-ion is an issue that is often ignored. A lithium-ion battery in use typically lasts between 2-3 years. The capacity loss manifests itself in increased internal resistance caused by oxidation. Eventually, the cell resistance reaches a point where the pack can no longer deliver the stored energy although the battery may still have ample charge. For this reason, an aged battery can be kept longer in applications that draw low current as opposed to a function that demands heavy loads. Increasing internal resistance with cycle life and age is typical for cobalt-based lithium-ion, a system that is used for cell phones, cameras and laptops because of high energy density. The lower energy dense manganese-based lithium-ion, also known as spinel, maintains the internal resistance through its life but loses capacity due to chemical decompositions. Spinel is primarily used for power tools.

The speed by which lithium-ion ages is governed by temperature and state-of-charge. Figure 1 illustrates the capacity loss as a function of these two parameters.

http://www.batteryuniversity.com/images/parttwo-34.gif

You can deduce from this that at our UK temperatures and normally fully charging the battery, around 85% of capacity at one year is reasonable, so possibly 70% at 2 years with around the same rate of decline.

However, we are still in a time of colder temperatures, and lower temperatures increase internal resistance and restrict capacity. As the weather warms more, your batteries will regain some extra capacity.

Two more factors apply of course. Fully discharging the battery often reduces it's life more rapidly than one which is frequently part charged. Also the rate of discharge affects life, the harder the battery is worked, the shorter the life.

.

Edited April 4, 201016 yr by flecc

I'm interested in the Richmond Park service you mention in your long term test. I live in New Malden, so very near the park.

I know there's was a bike hire place, though I've never seen an electric bike other than mine in the park.

I must have a look as the one thing that makes me unhappy about my Kalkhoff is having one dealer only, 140 miles away. So if the bike needed leaving over and picking up, I'd have nearly 600 miles to drive. How green is that?

Are their service prices expensive?

Interesting.

Thank you for the replies.

Tom

I must have a look as the one thing that makes me unhappy about my Kalkhoff is having one dealer only, 140 miles away. So if the bike needed leaving over and picking up, I'd have nearly 600 miles to drive. How green is that?

 

Are their service prices expensive?

I thought 50 cycles have some sort of presence in London or Surrey?

I thought 50 cycles have some sort of presence in London or Surrey?

Normally only for demonstrations in SW London, though Tim can provide some degree of support there at times.

.

I'm interested in the Richmond Park service you mention in your long term test... So if the bike needed leaving over and picking up... Are their service prices expensive?

That is the place, near Roehampton Gate. The person who runs the store, operates an informal service since he has two Kalkhoffs for rent from 50 Cycles. Please note that he does not offer a full service but has carried out more difficult tasks like replace the back wheels and cogs (difficult for me anyway). He is a very nice chap and his prices, compared to Evans for example, leave you thinking whether or not you've taken advantage of him. I always pay him more than he asks for anyways (something I don't do for Evans).

Thanks for the review - good to hear of that the reliability has been so good over a much longer distance than I have ridden on my ProConnect.

I was interested to read about your chain maintenance - using more than one chain and regularly putting one in soak.

Which make of chain, or more particularly, which type of joining link have you found to be easiest for regular changeovers ?

I noticed that some types of joining link are quite wide, and can occasionally catch where they pass through the Panasonic chain tensioner.

Thanks

James

I always pay him more than he asks for anyways (something I don't do for Evans).

Thanks. I'm similar, (very) occasionally something seems too cheap and I pay more.

I must say that I've found Evans in Kingston much more amenable than my LBS who told me in no uncertain terms what they thought of e-bikes.

...Which make of chain, or more particularly, which type of joining link have you found to be easiest for regular changeovers ?

 

I noticed that some types of joining link are quite wide, and can occasionally catch where they pass through the Panasonic chain tensioner...

James

I use the SRAM PC1 1/8" chain but, more importantly as you pointed out, I use the KMC Universal Connector 1/8" Chain Link (both from Evans). The latter is a 3 component link where the locking link does not go all the way around (the ends are about 1 mm apart). This allows me to see where the link is and it can be dissambled in seconds using a thin-nose pair of pliers. I then use a small flat bladed screw driver to push the locking link back on.

I have to admit that, initially, I was scared that the link might come flying off at any time (and carry a spare) but it has not done so for 2, almost 3 thousand miles. In fact, I've never had any kind of problem with the link at all.

Also, when I exchange the chain, I use a toothbrush and white spirit to clean the cogs (this is what takes the bulk of the 45 minutes). The incoming chain obviously also needs to be oiled.

Edited April 5, 201016 yr by c_elder

I use the SRAM PC1 1/8" chain but, more importantly as you pointed out, I use the KMC Universal Connector 1/8" Chain Link (both from Evans). The latter is a 3 component link where the locking link does not go all the way around (the ends are about 1 mm apart)..

Thanks for a great report. My wife's and my Pro Connects have only covered about 3,500 miles each over the same period - all of it leisure cycling but ours reflect some of your early experiences (thankfully no problems (yet) with my rear 24 spoker - the 2 year warranty is up in June!!). I'm having trouble locating the chain and more importantly the universal link on th Evans website - can you point me in the right direction?

Thanks

Mike

Thanks for a great report. My wife's and my Pro Connects have only covered about 3,500 miles each over the same period - all of it leisure cycling but ours reflect some of your early experiences (thankfully no problems (yet) with my rear 24 spoker - the 2 year warranty is up in June!!). I'm having trouble locating the chain and more importantly the universal link on th Evans website - can you point me in the right direction?

 

Thanks

 

Mike

Mike, I couldn't see the link on the Evans website, but here it is at SJS.

I am fairly certain that this is the one that c_elder is using. Please would you confirm.

Thanks

James

Mike, I couldn't see the link on the Evans website, but here it is at SJS.

 

Thanks James.

Which side does the spring clip go, does it face the wheel or outwards or doesn't it matter?

Mike

... I couldn't see the link on the Evans website, but here it is at SJS.

 

I am fairly certain that this is the one that c_elder is using. Please would you confirm...

That is the one. I believe that, for Evans, both are in-store items only. There are no clear instructions for which way around the locking clip goes but it made sense to me that the gap is trailng as the chain goes around. That is, as you kneel on the right hand side the bike (front wheel on your right) with the chain-break on the bottom and with the clip on your side, then the gap is to the right (hope that makes sense).

I always have the clip outwards as this makes it easier to both see and put on / take off.

Edited April 6, 201016 yr by c_elder

... My wife's and my Pro Connects have only covered about 3,500 miles each over the same period...

At that sort of distance I presume that your chain has stretched. When this happens, the teeth on the cogs will also wear to the new shape of the chain. Simply replacing the chain may cause slipping. You might find that you will also need to replace the cogs. Keeping the cogs and chain in-synch is one of the reasons why I rotate the chains on a weekly basis. Hope this helps.

Also, when I exchange the chain, I use a toothbrush and white spirit to clean the cogs (this is what takes the bulk of the 45 minutes). The incoming chain obviously also needs to be oiled.

Do you find that you can still taste the white spirit when you come to clean your teeth? Or do you use the wife's toothbrush?

It had to come!!

Hi all (and c elder in particular)

Back in April you did an excellent review of 2 years and 8000 miles experience of a Pro Connect. You outlined your chain cleaning/replacement regime. I reported at that time that after some 3500 miles each my wife and my Pro Connects were Ok. BUT.... There are some nasty crunches coming from the chain drive now (4000 miles covered), mine being worse that Mrs 'O', but I'm heavier. (I've tightened motor bolts/cranks/pedals and it seems to be chain related and the chain has certainly stretched a lot). It got worse today during a great New Forest ride - ended up feeling like stirring porridge!

You quoted you were using SRAM PC1 1/8" chain (from SJS). I note this comes in 114 links as a standard length - is that long enough? Our chains seem to be more like 120+ links long?

Flecc - can you point me again to your excellent manual on all things panasonic motor etc. I'm going to replace the chainwheel sprocket - I note that ours are not retained by a conventional circlip as I remembered in your photo, but it's just like a sprung clip without any means of inserting pliers - do you just prize it off then slip it back over the hub?

Thanks

Mike

If they are anything like other e-bikes you have to buy two chains for the first replacement and add the extra links from the second chain. The battery lengthens the wheelbase making many chains too short out of the box.

Of course with subsequent replacements you need only buy 1 x "new" chain of the same make and then add links from the previously shortened chain, until you've run out of spare bits of chain.

And with "his and hers" bikes you need only buy three chains as one can provide the extra links for both the other two.

I will leave it as an exercise for any maths geniuses to work out how many full chain replacements of the e-bikes the extra shortened chain will provide (actually that would probably be a good maths question for a teacher to set their class)

Edited June 17, 201015 yr by Alex728

Hi all (and c elder in particular)

 

Back in April you did an excellent review of 2 years and 8000 miles experience of a Pro Connect. You outlined your chain cleaning/replacement regime. I reported at that time that after some 3500 miles each my wife and my Pro Connects were Ok. BUT.... There are some nasty crunches coming from the chain drive now (4000 miles covered), mine being worse that Mrs 'O', but I'm heavier. (I've tightened motor bolts/cranks/pedals and it seems to be chain related and the chain has certainly stretched a lot). It got worse today during a great New Forest ride - ended up feeling like stirring porridge!

 

You quoted you were using SRAM PC1 1/8" chain (from SJS). I note this comes in 114 links as a standard length - is that long enough? Our chains seem to be more like 120+ links long?

 

Flecc - can you point me again to your excellent manual on all things panasonic motor etc. I'm going to replace the chainwheel sprocket - I note that ours are not retained by a conventional circlip as I remembered in your photo, but it's just like a sprung clip without any means of inserting pliers - do you just prize it off then slip it back over the hub?

 

Thanks

 

Mike

Mike

Yes - the clip holding the chainwheel is just prized off - you can get under it with a very thin screwdriver - cover it with a cloth as it tends to fly off.

The motor sprocket is the one that uses a traditional circlip needing external circlip pliers.

The motor sprocket is the only one of the three sprockets that has a second life by removing it and turning it over - the chainwheel and rear sprocket have to be replaced.

Chainwheel and motor sprockets are by Panasonic and are readily available from 50cycles - rear sprocket is Shimano - Petra Cycles usually have the various choices available.

Because of the different Kalkhoff frame sizes and the different sizes of rear sprocket, it is difficult to be specific about the length of chain. You are right that you will need roughly 120 links, and that standard bike chains are normally sold as 114 links.

So you will need a chain tool suitable for 1/8" chain to break the chain into the appropriate length.

Everyone has their favourite method - mine is as follows:

1. Remove old chain and replace any sprockets that are worn.

2. Fit back wheel with the tabs on the non-rotation washers into the closed end of the drop out slot, and pull the wheel up against the closed end. (This makes it easy to reposition the wheel to the same place after a puncture, and guarantees that there is some space for chain tensioning in the future by turning the washer.)

3. Clean bike, put newspaper on kitchen table, and get bike up to a sensible height (best to put the emphasis on doing Mrs O's bike first).

4. Print off this page from Flecc's site to remember the best setting of 60-65 mm for the idler adjustment.

5. Thread 114 link chain around the sprockets, knowing that there will be a 3 inch gap because it is too short. Have the gap on the top run close to the chainwheel.

6. Thread a bit of thin strong string through each end of the chain, one link back from each end. Tighten the string until you have the 60-65 mm shown in the picture.

7. Offer up a second piece of chain against the gap to decide on the most appropriate length of the extra required. Cut chain to suit and insert the piece.

8. Remove string and replace chainguard.

If the number of links does not give a good tension, it will be neccessary to move the rear wheel in the dropout.

Tighten the rear hub nuts - need to be close to the recommended maximum of 35 ft lbs to hold the wheel, but this is also close to the limit that the nut will stand. I find that there is less tendency for the nut to come slack when the tab of the non-rotation is trapped tightly into the closed end of the dropout.

Make absoloutely certain that the outer sheath of the gear cable is sitting into the very bottom of the pocket on the hub gear cassette. If the wheel has been moved back in order to tighten the chain, the outer often comes away from the bottom of the pocket, making the gear change noisy and unreliable. Doublecheck that the dots line up in 4th gear.

Readjust the rear brakes to the new position of the rear wheel.

James

Edited June 18, 201015 yr by JamesC

 

Flecc - can you point me again to your excellent manual on all things panasonic motor etc. I'm going to replace the chainwheel sprocket - I note that ours are not retained by a conventional circlip as I remembered in your photo, but it's just like a sprung clip without any means of inserting pliers - do you just prize it off then slip it back over the hub?

 

Thanks

 

Mike

It seems it will be a prise off ring Mike, just like Shimano's hubgear one. A pity if Panasonic are using them now, conventional circlips are so much better.

Here's the index page of my Panasonic support site.

.