A Crank Call

[Graeme]

When will all the suppliers and manufacturers 'lurking' about this wonderful forum realise that Crank operated bikes are the future of the business, and when will they start to offer them?
I really like the look of the Torano Esprit (with Hub GEARS and with throttle ) and it is reasonably priced , as opposed to Kalkhoff etc.. When will consumers get more choice from different suppliers on the Cranky side of E-Bike life?
Suppliers are missing a potentially huge market if they ignore the Crank, and potential customers are also missing out, and ultimately the industry is missing out, in my humble, uniformed opinion...
Ignore the Crank at your peril!

 

[jerrysimon]

Do you mean crank driven i.e. a motor driving the crank ?

I would disagree, imho hub driven bikes expecially front hubs offer the simplest, most easily servicable solution at the current time.

Ah you mean a motor driving a main crank with a chain ? If so I agree there are fewer options though I am still not convinced its is the simplest solution which I maintain is a front driven hub.

Regards

Jerry

 

[kitchenman]

Can we agree on what to call the different crank systems? THese are the ones I know about:

Crank being driven by a motor with no chain involved - i.e Gruber Assist
Crank being driven by a motor and another chain in addition and seperate to the main chain - i.e. THe StokeMonkey
Crank being driven by a motor with a combination of chains i.e. Bosch, Tonaro, etc ...

Please correct me if I've got this wrong and any systems I've missed! ..




Torano Esprit
eddieo's KTM ... thats a "crank" isn't it?

 

[Graeme]

Jerry
My post is somewhat tongue in cheek, and I don't want to start yet another crank v hub debate, I, along with many others I suspect, would like to see more choice of Crank driven bikes like the Torano's.
We all have personal choices in these matters but it does seem that the Crank choice is very limited. After months of weighing up the options I have come to the conclusion for me that a Crank drive is best. The choice I have is Raleigh/Kalkhoff Gepida and Torano. If I want one with throttle and hub gears its a Kalkhoff at about £2400 or the Torano Esprit (not yet available) at about £1200. That's it.
It seems that the E-Bike industry is more manufacturer/supplier driven than market driven, and it seems to me there is a lot more room for Cranks! ;-)

 

[tillson]

When will all the suppliers and manufacturers 'lurking' about this wonderful forum realise that Crank operated bikes are the future of the business, and when will they start to offer them?
I really like the look of the Torano Esprit (with Hub GEARS and with throttle ) and it is reasonably priced , as opposed to Kalkhoff etc.. When will consumers get more choice from different suppliers on the Cranky side of E-Bike life?
Suppliers are missing a potentially huge market if they ignore the Crank, and potential customers are also missing out, and ultimately the industry is missing out, in my humble, uniformed opinion...
Ignore the Crank at your peril!

Totally agree. Driving the pedal crank similar to Panasonic and Bosch is the correct way to power these bikes. It's more efficient, gives flexibility to the motor through the gears and feels more natural to the rider.

I suppose the attraction of hub motors to the manufacturer is that it's comparatively easier to manufacture a hub motor driven bike. Just shove a motorised wheel into a Chinese frame, lash everything together with Velcro, tape, spiral wrap and clips and it's job done. A crank drive on the other hand usually requires a bespoke frame, so I suppose it's not such an attractive proposition to a manufacturer.

 

[Graeme]

tillson.
Totally agree with you agreeing with me. ;-)
Although I did have to LOL at your description of the manufacturing process of Hub Bikes...

 

[mike killay]

I totally agree. I live in a hilly district and need a geared motor, to continue to offer hub driven machines is now outdated.
The Tonaro is true crank drive by the way.
Neither can I see any need for the overcomplicated torque sensor of the Panasonic types, we are only talking about 250 watts max and a simple magnet ring pedelec works fine. As to the artificial restriction of power on the Panasonic, this will eventually spell the system's doom as buyers realise that they are being cheated out of the full power available just when the are tired out and really need it.
Throttles are a must.

 

[eddieo]

How Bosch and Tonero can be discussed in the same sentence is laughable IMO. Tonero heavy low tech, and the ugliest bike I have ever seen, just look at the motor! frame even worse! Only catching on because of the price? More moped then e bike IMO.

while a Bosch powered bike by comparison Is stylish, normal wheelbase, lightweight (many under 20 kg mine 21) strong performance, will climb a wall, and it looks like a modern cutting edge bike. So what that it costs more...You pays for what you gets in this life

saying that My wisper DaaHub on a very good bike is far and away the better bike then any crank or hub bike I have ever ridden and I have tried the best.....Like I alsways say you need to ride the things and try and lift them on a rack or put them in a car. It will soon become clear which are the best bikes.....

 

[kitchenman]

The Tonaro is true crank drive by the way.

Thanks for correcting me Mike ... is there a url link that explains how it works? ...

 

[kitchenman]

How Bosch and Tonero can be discussed in the same sentence is laughable IMO. Tomero heavy low tech, and the ugliest bike I have ever seen, just look at the motor! frame even worse! Only catching on because of the price? More moped then e bike IMO.

while a Bosch powered bike by comparison Is stylish, normal wheelbase, lightweight (many under 20 kg mine 21) strong performance, will climb a wall, and it looks like a modern cutting edge bike. So what that it costs more...You pays for what you gets in this life

saying that My wisper DaaHub on a very good bike is far and away the better bike then any crank or hub bike I have ever ridden and I have tried the best.....Like I alsways say you need to ride the things and try and lift them on a rack or put them in a car. It will soon become clear which are the best bikes.....

It would be interesting "kiterize" the Tonaro and the Bosch and install each of them on my CX700 and see which one performs best.

 

[Tim]

Crank drives are manifestly the way forward (and uphill). Tillson hit the nail on the head - just because it's relatively easy to bung a hub motor on any old bike in any given factory doesn't mean that it's the best way to apply electric assistance.

We had a Tonaro (via Teith Innovations in France) in for testing earlier this year with a view to selling them as a cheaper alternative to our Panasonic-powered range. I've been holding off saying this for months - it's just a personal view but I found it dreadfully heavy and sluggish to ride, even with power on (and a deadweight with the power off).

Yes, it was certainly powerful uphill but a bit lardy when just riding around - it seemed to take ages to go around Richmond Park and back to the shop. It also has the distinction of being the only ebike I've managed to fall off - I was attempting to start on a slope when the power failed to come in and the pedals refused to move, so I decided to 'eject' rather than tumble down with a great big top-heavy 28kg bike . All in all, I found the system a bit clunkcious and unresponsive, with a disconcerting approach to power management. But then I've been spoilt for years by the nimble, responsive Panasonic drive on relatively lightweight, well-made and well-balanced bikes.

 

[kitchenman]

Yes, it was certainly powerful uphill but a bit lardy when just riding around - it seemed to take ages to go around Richmond Park and back to the shop. It also has the distinction of being the only ebike I've managed to fall off - I was attempting to start on a slope when the power failed to come in and the pedals refused to move, so I decided to 'eject' rather than tumble down with a great big top-heavy 28kg bike .

I would love to see the "man falls off ebike in Richmond Park" video.

 

[parker]

I would love to see the "man falls off ebike in Richmond Park" video.

You are a very compassionate man!!

 

[kitchenman]

You are a very compassionate man!!

Actually, its not the falling off ... its the getting up again quickly before anyone sees that is so funny ... I'm always doing it! ....

 

[Graeme]

Crank drives are manifestly the way forward (and uphill). Tillson hit the nail on the head - just because it's relatively easy to bung a hub motor on any old bike in any given factory doesn't mean that it's the best way to apply electric assistance.

We had a Tonaro (via Teith Innovations in France) in for testing earlier this year with a view to selling them as a cheaper alternative to our Panasonic-powered range. I've been holding off saying this for months - it's just a personal view but I found it dreadfully heavy and sluggish to ride, even with power on (and a deadweight with the power off).

Yes, it was certainly powerful uphill but a bit lardy when just riding around - it seemed to take ages to go around Richmond Park and back to the shop. It also has the distinction of being the only ebike I've managed to fall off - I was attempting to start on a slope when the power failed to come in and the pedals refused to move, so I decided to 'eject' rather than tumble down with a great big top-heavy 28kg bike . All in all, I found the system a bit clunkcious and unresponsive, with a disconcerting approach to power management. But then I've been spoilt for years by the nimble, responsive Panasonic drive on relatively lightweight, well-made and well-balanced bikes.

Hi Tim
Thanks for your in put. Which Torano did you try?
Why don't you publish the weight of each bike on your website, that would be helpful?
The Torano Esprit is 25kg with battery, and less than half the price of the Kalkhoff Connect S, the ONLY Kalkhoff with a throttle.
I would of course consider a Kalkhoff with a throttle, but at £2495 its way beyond what I'm prepared to pay for an E-Bike.
My point remains there is so little choice in Crank driven bikes. We need more competition!
Sounds to me like you're saying Kalkhoff are the LardyDa of the bike world, while the Torano's are just Lardy. ;-)
Replacement battery prices are a factor to take into consideration for me too.

 

[eddieo]

No Panasonic bike has a proper throttle...only a low speed 4-6mph? to help you push bike up steep hills...

Buy a Bosch powered bike! They dont need a throttle

 

[Graeme]

No Panasonic bike has a proper throttle...only a low speed 4-6mph? to help you push bike up steep hills...

Buy a Bosch powered bike! They dont need a throttle

Give me some options to consider Eddie.

 

[flecc]

Transmission drive is a more accurate name, but as it's a bit of a mouthful, crank drive is a handy term to cover all those types.

I agree they are the best way to utilise the limited allowed power and give optimum range, these are engineering facts and not opinions. Single gear hub motors can never match their potential in these respects.

There are downsides though. Bicycle transmissions are not designed to handle three times normal rider power and have a safe strength margin in addition, so wear and tear plus early failures can be the outcome.

The legal assist limit designed in is easily and cheaply bypassed. With greater popularity in some countries, their police will become aware of this and perhaps focus attention accordingly.

 

[eddieo]

Problem with Bosch is..while system has been instantly adopted by over 16 major European manufactures only Haibike seem to be available here. This is because demand has been so great in Germany. But I think they will start coming over in 2012. Go try one, even 50 cycles are starting to stock them, and you can compare with a Panasonic at the same time....

That is why I bought in Europe as I was buying 2 new bikes and budget was approx 2k each and Haibike nearer 3k......Obviously better to buy here, but I felt I had no choice if I wanted to stay within budget.....

i would not dismiss a hub drive bike either, I could live without the Bosch and may well have to as wife does not like the cross bar version I bought. but I really like my lightweight well specified specialised bike with DaaHub kit...the best bike I have ridden and it makes you feel 10 years younger

if your budget does not stretch to these search on gumtree or eviibay for a Panasonic or a good quality hub bike, I am sure you would enjoy either. Or if you have a bike you like the 8 fun kit with bottle battery looks OK to me..

But cable mangement and tidyness will never be as good with a kit as a ready made e bike

 

[Kudoscycles]

>Tim Snaith
I value your honest opinion about the Tonaro,on paper it seems to be a unique bike and not expensive for the specification offered. I must say it seemed to be an obvious choice to anyone intending to buy a crank drive bicycle. As an engineer I appreciate the advantages for crank drive on steep hills but the reality,on the bikes I have ridden, is that they are not that much better than hub drives and don't justify all the additional costs and complexity. The Panasonic system seems underpowered but very nice to ride,I know flecc I need to understand it to get the best out of it,but most of my customers who had back to back rides on a Panasonic crank drive versus a Suzhou Bafang hubdrive remarked that the hub drive felt more gutsy. I suspect that the new Bosch system is a vast improvement but it seems at this stage reserved for the high end German manufacturers-having an intimate knowledge of the way these things work I suspect that situation may change soon.
Dave
KudosCycles